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Re: boot volume with no data
by ScottUCE＠aol.com 15 Aug '01

15 Aug '01

We have NetApp 9gb FC or SCSI shelves/drives available -- cheap! Scott Fischmann Union Computer Exchange, Inc. 6233 Idylwood Lane Minneapolis, MN 55436 Phone: 952 935 7282 FAX: 952 935 5056 scott(a)unioncomputer.com

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RE: boot volume with no data
by Joe Luchtenberg 14 Aug '01

14 Aug '01

As far as I can tell, the only 9GB drives currently orderable from NetApp are ZCS drives for the FC9 shelf on the F740. I checked Quoter and NetApp Market on NOW. According to the SysConfig Guide on NOW, the non-checksum 9GB drive for the FC7 is also a supported config for F740/820/840 and the 9GB UltraSCSI drive for Dual Storage Shelf 2 is supported on F740, but none of these are orderable today (perhops Scott at UCE... no, I didn't really say that ;-). However, for new systems, if you want a separate root volume, you need at least 2x 18GB. Perhaps this is less of an issue with 14-disk shelves now (not so much additional incremental shelf $, although it does eat into available scalability). I liked John's suggestion about a flashdisk boot volume. Perhaps someone from NetApp can address futures? Joe Luchtenberg Dataline, Inc. 757-858-0600 757-285-1223 (mobile) 757-858-0606 (fax) joe.luchtenberg(a)data-line.com www.data-line.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Marchand, Paul [mailto:Paul.Marchand@netapp.com] > Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 1:26 PM > To: Fox, Adam; 'neil lehrer'; toasters > Subject: RE: boot volume with no data > > > I agree with Adam except I do like a separate root volume as > it makes life much easier for all the reasons he mentioned. > It is a huge waste of space unless you can convince the > customer to purchase 3 9 gig drives, 2 for root 1 for parity > in addition to their other storage requirements. You don't > waste as much space that way and just maybe the customer may > buy an extra shelf with only 3 bays occupied which could > accommodate 4 more drives at a future point in time. > > -Paul > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Paul E. Marchand > Network Appliance ~ Systems Engineer > fast simple reliable > marchand(a)netapp.com > 408.822.3213 415.793.8881(cell) > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Fox, Adam [mailto:Adam.Fox@netapp.com] > Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 9:54 AM > To: 'neil lehrer'; toasters > Subject: RE: boot volume with no data > > > Okay, I've heard lots of debates on this, here's my opinion > and I'm sure others will disagree. > > I'm not a big fan of root-only volumes. I think that overall > they are a big waste of space for very little gain. However, > there are some good reasons to do it depending on your scenario. > > 1. SnapMirror. If you are SnapMirroring all of your data then > it is a good idea to have your root volume on a separate volume. > This allows you to offline your data volumes at will which is good > for initial transfers or resynching back to a source. > > 2. SnapRestore. If your application or dataset makes regular use > of SnapRestore..yes I've seen this in a case where customers like > to snapshot a known good dataset, have their users mess with it, then > SnapRestore back to the known good dataset afterwards. If this is > your scenario, then yes, a root volume is a good idea. > > 3. Lots of vol copy'ing. If you do lots of vol copy commands in your > dataset, then for the same reason as SnapMirror, the offline ability > is a good one. > > There may be others out there in the world, but these are the most > common. But in my opinion, for the 50-60MB that /etc typically takes > up, is it worth dedicating 2 36GB or 72GB drives? Maybe so, but most > of my customers don't think so. > > Just one geek's opinion. There isn't really a single right or wrong > answer on this one. > > -- Adam Fox > NetApp Professional Services, NC > adamfox(a)netapp.com > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: neil lehrer [mailto:nlehrer@ibb.gov] > > Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 11:56 AM > > To: toasters > > Subject: boot volume with no data > > > > > > are there any particular advantages or disadvantages to just > > having ontap on > > vol0 and data on other volumes? > > -- > > > > > > regards > > >

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RE: What does Z for CP-type in sysstat -u output mean?
by Yee, Steven 14 Aug '01

14 Aug '01

The next revision of the man page states that Z means "CP caused by internal sync" steve. -----Original Message----- From: Chris Thompson [mailto:cet1@cus.cam.ac.uk] Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 11:10 AM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: What does Z for CP-type in sysstat -u output mean? I have just seen a "Z" in the "CP ty(pe)" column of some "sysstat -u" output (with ONTAP 6.1.1). Anyone know what this one means? It's not listed in the na_sysstat(1) man page. It occurred shortly before a scheduled snapshot that gave the expected "S". Chris Thompson University of Cambridge Computing Service, Email: cet1(a)ucs.cam.ac.uk New Museums Site, Cambridge CB2 3QG, Phone: +44 1223 334715 United Kingdom.

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RE: boot volume with no data
by Mike Sphar 14 Aug '01

14 Aug '01

I agree that using 9Gb drives is *better* than using larger drives for a separate root volume, but even then you're still using 27Gb of disk space for what is generally an under 100Mb set of data, and it reduces the max capacity of the filer by (what I feel is) a significant amount. Like others have mentioned, I think I great future enhancement to the product line would be a separate set of media for the root volume, whether that's flash disks, microdrives, whatever. -----Original Message----- From: Marchand, Paul [mailto:Paul.Marchand@netapp.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 10:26 AM To: Fox, Adam; 'neil lehrer'; toasters Subject: RE: boot volume with no data I agree with Adam except I do like a separate root volume as it makes life much easier for all the reasons he mentioned. It is a huge waste of space unless you can convince the customer to purchase 3 9 gig drives, 2 for root 1 for parity in addition to their other storage requirements. You don't waste as much space that way and just maybe the customer may buy an extra shelf with only 3 bays occupied which could accommodate 4 more drives at a future point in time. -Paul ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Paul E. Marchand Network Appliance ~ Systems Engineer fast simple reliable marchand(a)netapp.com 408.822.3213 415.793.8881(cell) -----Original Message----- From: Fox, Adam [mailto:Adam.Fox@netapp.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 9:54 AM To: 'neil lehrer'; toasters Subject: RE: boot volume with no data Okay, I've heard lots of debates on this, here's my opinion and I'm sure others will disagree. I'm not a big fan of root-only volumes. I think that overall they are a big waste of space for very little gain. However, there are some good reasons to do it depending on your scenario. 1. SnapMirror. If you are SnapMirroring all of your data then it is a good idea to have your root volume on a separate volume. This allows you to offline your data volumes at will which is good for initial transfers or resynching back to a source. 2. SnapRestore. If your application or dataset makes regular use of SnapRestore..yes I've seen this in a case where customers like to snapshot a known good dataset, have their users mess with it, then SnapRestore back to the known good dataset afterwards. If this is your scenario, then yes, a root volume is a good idea. 3. Lots of vol copy'ing. If you do lots of vol copy commands in your dataset, then for the same reason as SnapMirror, the offline ability is a good one. There may be others out there in the world, but these are the most common. But in my opinion, for the 50-60MB that /etc typically takes up, is it worth dedicating 2 36GB or 72GB drives? Maybe so, but most of my customers don't think so. Just one geek's opinion. There isn't really a single right or wrong answer on this one. -- Adam Fox NetApp Professional Services, NC adamfox(a)netapp.com > -----Original Message----- > From: neil lehrer [mailto:nlehrer@ibb.gov] > Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 11:56 AM > To: toasters > Subject: boot volume with no data > > > are there any particular advantages or disadvantages to just > having ontap on > vol0 and data on other volumes? > -- > > > regards >

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RE: boot volume with no data
by Honeycutt, Michael 14 Aug '01

14 Aug '01

Here's a good one for keeping the data seperate. Not long after my first data migration to the filer, I accidentally added a disk to the root volume. Luckly you can copy the /etc to another volume and change the target root volume. If I would have had that 100GB of data on the root volume as well, it wouldnt had been so much fun to fix. Can anyone say oops? -----Original Message----- From: Mike Sphar [mailto:mikey@Remedy.COM] Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 1:58 PM To: toasters Subject: RE: boot volume with no data I agree that using 9Gb drives is *better* than using larger drives for a separate root volume, but even then you're still using 27Gb of disk space for what is generally an under 100Mb set of data, and it reduces the max capacity of the filer by (what I feel is) a significant amount. Like others have mentioned, I think I great future enhancement to the product line would be a separate set of media for the root volume, whether that's flash disks, microdrives, whatever. -----Original Message----- From: Marchand, Paul [mailto:Paul.Marchand@netapp.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 10:26 AM To: Fox, Adam; 'neil lehrer'; toasters Subject: RE: boot volume with no data I agree with Adam except I do like a separate root volume as it makes life much easier for all the reasons he mentioned. It is a huge waste of space unless you can convince the customer to purchase 3 9 gig drives, 2 for root 1 for parity in addition to their other storage requirements. You don't waste as much space that way and just maybe the customer may buy an extra shelf with only 3 bays occupied which could accommodate 4 more drives at a future point in time. -Paul ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Paul E. Marchand Network Appliance ~ Systems Engineer fast simple reliable marchand(a)netapp.com 408.822.3213 415.793.8881(cell) -----Original Message----- From: Fox, Adam [mailto:Adam.Fox@netapp.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 9:54 AM To: 'neil lehrer'; toasters Subject: RE: boot volume with no data Okay, I've heard lots of debates on this, here's my opinion and I'm sure others will disagree. I'm not a big fan of root-only volumes. I think that overall they are a big waste of space for very little gain. However, there are some good reasons to do it depending on your scenario. 1. SnapMirror. If you are SnapMirroring all of your data then it is a good idea to have your root volume on a separate volume. This allows you to offline your data volumes at will which is good for initial transfers or resynching back to a source. 2. SnapRestore. If your application or dataset makes regular use of SnapRestore..yes I've seen this in a case where customers like to snapshot a known good dataset, have their users mess with it, then SnapRestore back to the known good dataset afterwards. If this is your scenario, then yes, a root volume is a good idea. 3. Lots of vol copy'ing. If you do lots of vol copy commands in your dataset, then for the same reason as SnapMirror, the offline ability is a good one. There may be others out there in the world, but these are the most common. But in my opinion, for the 50-60MB that /etc typically takes up, is it worth dedicating 2 36GB or 72GB drives? Maybe so, but most of my customers don't think so. Just one geek's opinion. There isn't really a single right or wrong answer on this one. -- Adam Fox NetApp Professional Services, NC adamfox(a)netapp.com > -----Original Message----- > From: neil lehrer [mailto:nlehrer@ibb.gov] > Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 11:56 AM > To: toasters > Subject: boot volume with no data > > > are there any particular advantages or disadvantages to just > having ontap on > vol0 and data on other volumes? > -- > > > regards >

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What does Z for CP-type in sysstat -u output mean?
by Chris Thompson 14 Aug '01

14 Aug '01

I have just seen a "Z" in the "CP ty(pe)" column of some "sysstat -u" output (with ONTAP 6.1.1). Anyone know what this one means? It's not listed in the na_sysstat(1) man page. It occurred shortly before a scheduled snapshot that gave the expected "S". Chris Thompson University of Cambridge Computing Service, Email: cet1(a)ucs.cam.ac.uk New Museums Site, Cambridge CB2 3QG, Phone: +44 1223 334715 United Kingdom.

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RE: boot volume with no data
by Marchand, Paul 14 Aug '01

14 Aug '01

I agree with Adam except I do like a separate root volume as it makes life much easier for all the reasons he mentioned. It is a huge waste of space unless you can convince the customer to purchase 3 9 gig drives, 2 for root 1 for parity in addition to their other storage requirements. You don't waste as much space that way and just maybe the customer may buy an extra shelf with only 3 bays occupied which could accommodate 4 more drives at a future point in time. -Paul ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Paul E. Marchand Network Appliance ~ Systems Engineer fast simple reliable marchand(a)netapp.com 408.822.3213 415.793.8881(cell) -----Original Message----- From: Fox, Adam [mailto:Adam.Fox@netapp.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 9:54 AM To: 'neil lehrer'; toasters Subject: RE: boot volume with no data Okay, I've heard lots of debates on this, here's my opinion and I'm sure others will disagree. I'm not a big fan of root-only volumes. I think that overall they are a big waste of space for very little gain. However, there are some good reasons to do it depending on your scenario. 1. SnapMirror. If you are SnapMirroring all of your data then it is a good idea to have your root volume on a separate volume. This allows you to offline your data volumes at will which is good for initial transfers or resynching back to a source. 2. SnapRestore. If your application or dataset makes regular use of SnapRestore..yes I've seen this in a case where customers like to snapshot a known good dataset, have their users mess with it, then SnapRestore back to the known good dataset afterwards. If this is your scenario, then yes, a root volume is a good idea. 3. Lots of vol copy'ing. If you do lots of vol copy commands in your dataset, then for the same reason as SnapMirror, the offline ability is a good one. There may be others out there in the world, but these are the most common. But in my opinion, for the 50-60MB that /etc typically takes up, is it worth dedicating 2 36GB or 72GB drives? Maybe so, but most of my customers don't think so. Just one geek's opinion. There isn't really a single right or wrong answer on this one. -- Adam Fox NetApp Professional Services, NC adamfox(a)netapp.com > -----Original Message----- > From: neil lehrer [mailto:nlehrer@ibb.gov] > Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 11:56 AM > To: toasters > Subject: boot volume with no data > > > are there any particular advantages or disadvantages to just > having ontap on > vol0 and data on other volumes? > -- > > > regards >

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RE: boot volume with no data
by Collins, Jim 14 Aug '01

14 Aug '01

On the negative side I assume you would still need a parity just for Vol0. This might be a waste if you are tight on storage. The plus side is you may have more flexibility moving (physically) volumes from one filer to the next in the event of a head crash. I am considering doing the same thing with vol0. I guess something like this should be considered if you have more than one filer and they are not clustered. In my case we have a F740 & F760. It would be nice if they could be clustered but I don't think they can. My thinking is that if the head crashed on either filer the volume/shelf could be moved to the other filer and would be recognized as a forerun volume. -----Original Message----- From: neil lehrer [mailto:nlehrer@ibb.gov] Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 10:56 AM To: toasters Subject: boot volume with no data are there any particular advantages or disadvantages to just having ontap on vol0 and data on other volumes? -- regards

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RE: boot volume with no data
by Noll, Kevin 14 Aug '01

14 Aug '01

When using SnapMirror, you would not SnapMirror your root volume. -----Original Message----- From: neil lehrer [mailto:nlehrer@ibb.gov] Sent: 14 August 2001 16:56 To: toasters Subject: boot volume with no data are there any particular advantages or disadvantages to just having ontap on vol0 and data on other volumes? -- regards ******************************************************************************************** " This message contains information that may be privileged or confidential and is the property of the Cap Gemini Ernst & Young Group. It is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, you are not authorized to read, print, retain, copy, disseminate, distribute, or use this message or any part thereof. If you receive this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this message ". ********************************************************************************************

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Re: NetApps and commodity drives
by Daniel Feenberg 11 Aug '01

11 Aug '01

Numerous persons have told me that 3rd party drives are forbidden in the NetApp support contract. But we want a lot of storage...and NetApp charges three times as much... and both drives are Seagate...and here is the text of the support contract at http://now.netapp.com/NOW/products/agreement/agree_2000.shtml: >2.8 Exclusions. >Our warranties and maintenance agreements do not apply to, nor do prices >include maintenance of, the repair or diagnosis of damage, malfunctions >or product failures caused by: (a) you or any third party; (b) accident, >misuse or abuse; (c) the installation, repair or alteration of our >product (including modification of software) by anyone other than us or a >NetApp Service Provider; (d) products not sold by NetApp that are >attached to or used with our products, even if those products are sold by >one of our authorized resellers... Which I take to mean that that they fix only the NetApp supplied part of the device, if something breaks. This same clause appears to regulate 3rd party drives and tape backup units, which are of course, very widespread. I also note that a large number of Seagate drives are listed as compatible in http://now.netapp.com/NOW/download/tools/diskfw/, although the model numbers use a slightly different format than the Seagate site uses. There is also the NOW page about disk qualification (http://now.netapp.com/NOW/download/tools/diskqual/) which includes the following text: >The Disk Qualification Requirement text file adds information about >second-source disk drives to the device qualification matrix in your >filer. The only 72 gigabyte FC Seagate that I can find has a slightly different part number from the one mentioned in the NetApp support documents, but I had been hoping the difference wasn't significant. Looks like it is, though. I suspect the difference is that NetApp wants to use 520 byte sectors, and Seagate defaults to 512, and I don't know how to switch. So I am surprised that everyone thinks that 3rd party drives are forbidden by the support agreement. I agree that they aren't supported, but that isn't the same thing as geing forbidden. Daniel Feenberg feenberg(a)nber.org

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