toasters April 2001

toasters@lists.teaparty.net

205 participants
286 discussions

Re: How would you respond to this
by Quentin Fennessy 20 Apr '01

20 Apr '01

Barry wrote> > This is an excerpt of an email that was sent to the management of a > company that I'm working with. They had spec'ed F85's for a fairly low > performance 10-20Mbits/sec. environment. The main requirement is > reliability and ease of use. How does one respond to blatant > misrepresentation of a competitors product? I've run into similar situations. I politely and strongly told the messenger who delivered such a message that this marketing tactic is unacceptable. In my most recent incident I told the salesperson that if I ever received such material from them again I would call the Sales VP and require that I work with someone else from their company. In that incident I never forced the salesperson to admit that he wrote the FUD document that I objected to. He indirectly admitted it, and I've seen nothing similar from him. The most powerful weapon you have to deal with this is your attention. If you ignore a salesperson and tell his/her management why, they will be dinged for it. Of course, your influence is factored by how much money you have spent in the past with them, and the likely purchase you could make. If all you have to spend is $20K then they can blow you off easily. (I'm not saying this is your case) Don't get upset over this sign of weakness on the vendors part. It's not worth it. Stupid, small and evil people will always be with us. -- Quentin Fennessy Quentin.Fennessy(a)amd.com Office: 512.602.3873 Cell: 512.694.7489

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RE:
by Fox, Adam 20 Apr '01

20 Apr '01

It should. Read up on how symlinks affect CIFS if that affects you, but for NFS, it works just fine. -- Adam Fox NetApp Professional Services, NC adamfox(a)netapp.com -----Original Message----- From: Maglinger, Paul [mailto:PMAGLINGER@scvl.com] Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 5:00 PM To: 'toasters(a)mathworks.com' Subject: We're running a 740 with Ontap 5.3.7R2. Will it accept a UNIX LN command, specifically: ln -s source_path dest_path Thank you. Have a prosperous and profitable day! _____ Paul Maglinger, A+, CA, CET, MCSE PC Specialist Shoe Carnival Inc. (812)867-4674 pmaglinger(a)scvl.com <mailto:pmaglinger@scvl.com> _____

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RE: How would you respond to this
by Mike Sphar 20 Apr '01

20 Apr '01

Ah, good. That's what I assumed since a RAID 0 solution didn't seem to make sense for what the F85 was designed for and, of course, I was far too lazy to look it up myself. You know, of all the things in that original email that were "subjective", stuff about expandability and the quality of support, etc. I could accept a salesperson being shifty about claims in those areas. Our support is better than theirs, we're faster, more reliable, yadda yadda yadda. But to make such a blatantly false claim about something that is a demonstrable fact. Like I said before, that would tick me off more than anything else, and I likely wouldn't deal with that company afterwards. At the very least, I would insist on a new sales rep. -- Mike Sphar - Sr Systems Administrator - Engineering Support Services - Remedy Corporation BOFH, GWP, MCP, MCP+I, MCSE, BFD -----Original Message----- From: Mohler, Jeff [mailto:jeff.mohler@netapp.com] Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 4:15 PM To: 'Mike Sphar'; 'Barry Lustig'; toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: RE: How would you respond to this Finally, does the F85 really use RAID 0? If so, it's true that it's not as failure proof, but then if the model was designed for RAID 0, then it's simply not targeted at the same market as a redundant RAID unit. If capacity and performance are far more important to you then redundancy, then RAID 0 is the way to go. (Though as I said, I'd be surprised if it really was RAID 0. If it's not, then a blatant lie like that would immediately turn me off to any vendor.) --- Since nobody else has responded..I'll step in. The F85 enjoys the FULL and complete feature set of WAFL and its engineering around RAID4 to do its work quickly, quietly, and with outstanding performance compared to any other filesystem or features the competition can throw at us.

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RE: How would you respond to this
by Phillips, Steve 20 Apr '01

20 Apr '01

Just a quick note on the statement below: The F85 supports RAID-4 only, as do all other products running Data ONTAP. I/we consider this a good thing. :) ------------------------------------------------------- Finally, does the F85 really use RAID 0? If so, it's true that it's not as failure proof, but then if the model was designed for RAID 0, then it's simply not targeted at the same market as a redundant RAID unit. If capacity and performance are far more important to you then redundancy, then RAID 0 is the way to go. (Though as I said, I'd be surprised if it really was RAID 0. If it's not, then a blatant lie like that would immediately turn me off to any vendor.)

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F85 RAID Level
by Clouthier,Ron 19 Apr '01

19 Apr '01

Let me set the story straight. I am the product manager for the F85 and as such I can tell you that the F85 utilizes RAID 4. Ron Clouthier Product Marketing Manager Network Appliance (408) 822 6485

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RE: How would you respond to this
by Mohler, Jeff 19 Apr '01

19 Apr '01

Finally, does the F85 really use RAID 0? If so, it's true that it's not as failure proof, but then if the model was designed for RAID 0, then it's simply not targeted at the same market as a redundant RAID unit. If capacity and performance are far more important to you then redundancy, then RAID 0 is the way to go. (Though as I said, I'd be surprised if it really was RAID 0. If it's not, then a blatant lie like that would immediately turn me off to any vendor.) --- Since nobody else has responded..I'll step in. The F85 enjoys the FULL and complete feature set of WAFL and its engineering around RAID4 to do its work quickly, quietly, and with outstanding performance compared to any other filesystem or features the competition can throw at us.

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RE: migrating data between filers
by Fox, Adam 19 Apr '01

19 Apr '01

Not too many. Maybe these are obvious, maybe not, but I'll list them anyway. 1. You'll need a 2-disk root volume on your F840 and migrate to another volume. Remember the destination volume must be offline. 2. If you're F840 is running 6.x, the filer may revert your volume before it starts the transfer. This happens with SnapMirror, and may with vol copy. No big deal..just wait it out. 3. Make sure you turn off user access to the source before you start. Or at least make it read only. You don't want to have changes not propogate. Otherwise, go for it. I've moved lots of stuff this way. It works pretty well. -- Adam Fox NetApp Professional Services, NC adamfox(a)netapp.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Leonard, Roger [mailto:Roger.Leonard@marconi.com] > Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 4:38 PM > To: toasters(a)mathworks.com > Subject: migrating data between filers > > > i am getting ready to migrate some data from 330's to an 840 > using volcopy. > has anyone done this out there and do you have > any recomendations and/or gotchas? >

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RE: How would you respond to this
by Clawson, Simon 19 Apr '01

19 Apr '01

That is rather unprofesional. I think the sales guy would be wrapped across the knuckles for that one. Coming from a software vendor support environment I have always been told never to rubbish a competitors product. It would have been frowned upon and I would have looked quite sily to boot! -----Original Message----- From: Barry Lustig [mailto:barry@lustig.com] Sent: 19 April 2001 21:41 To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: How would you respond to this This is an excerpt of an email that was sent to the management of a company that I'm working with. They had spec'ed F85's for a fairly low performance 10-20Mbits/sec. environment. The main requirement is reliability and ease of use. How does one respond to blatant misrepresentation of a competitors product? barry A few highlights of the comparison: - The F85 is a stripped down, single CPU, low end device with multiple points of failure and a very poor data protection. NetApps service is rated very low by industry experts and they offer next day shipment of parts that the user must install themselves. - The IP4700 is fully redundant, multi-CPU, mid-range device with no single point of failure and hardware based RAID 5 data protection. EMC's world class customer service center has ranked #1 for 6 consecutive years by Gartner Group. Standard 2 year warranty guarantees 4 hours ON SITE w/Parts service by EMC technicians. Plus, our 'call home' proactive maintenance system monitors trends within the system and reports them automatically to our customer service center. Often, EMC technicians will repair a system BEFORE the component actually fails. The 4700 will be configured with 8 drives usable, plus 1 drive for RAID 5 parity and 1 drive for hot swap redundancy. It is scalable all the way to 7000GB (7TB) vs. only 648GB for the F85. The 4700 as configured above is 8RU. In general, the F85 does not scale sufficiently for growth, has poor customer service behind it, has no redundancy, has multiple points of failure, and utilizes a sub-par RAID 0 data protection scheme.

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RE: How would you respond to this
by Mike Sphar 19 Apr '01

19 Apr '01

I would probably agree that the F85 is not as scalable as the other, but that's the whole point of the F85. It's a lower-end entry-point model. It's not meant to grow into a multi-terabyte enterprise environment. Now, some people might say "Well, if you have the option of growth, why not take it? Why get a system that you'll only have to replace in 3-5 years when you could have a system that will last you much longer?" My response to that is usually "Because in 3-5 years, technology will have changed so drastically that I'll probably want new hardware anyway." When I'm scoping hardware, I almost never spec out hardware to accommodate more than 3-5 years of growth. Trying to buy a system meant to last longer than that is usually overkill in my experience. Plus, after 3 years it's fully depreciated. I certainly disagree with the statements about Netapp support. I'm sure you'll hear horror stories now and then from any support organization, but I've always had great support from Netapp. I've several times had a replacement component arrive on my desk before I knew it was needed. Finally, does the F85 really use RAID 0? If so, it's true that it's not as failure proof, but then if the model was designed for RAID 0, then it's simply not targeted at the same market as a redundant RAID unit. If capacity and performance are far more important to you then redundancy, then RAID 0 is the way to go. (Though as I said, I'd be surprised if it really was RAID 0. If it's not, then a blatant lie like that would immediately turn me off to any vendor.) None of this is to say that the IP4700 is a bad machine. I don't know it well enough to say. But it sounds to me that it isn't designed for the same target market as the F85. It's comparing apples to oranges. -- Mike Sphar - Sr Systems Administrator - Engineering Support Services - Remedy Corporation BOFH, GWP, MCP, MCP+I, MCSE, BFD -----Original Message----- From: Barry Lustig [mailto:barry@lustig.com] Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 1:41 PM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: How would you respond to this This is an excerpt of an email that was sent to the management of a company that I'm working with. They had spec'ed F85's for a fairly low performance 10-20Mbits/sec. environment. The main requirement is reliability and ease of use. How does one respond to blatant misrepresentation of a competitors product? barry A few highlights of the comparison: - The F85 is a stripped down, single CPU, low end device with multiple points of failure and a very poor data protection. NetApps service is rated very low by industry experts and they offer next day shipment of parts that the user must install themselves. - The IP4700 is fully redundant, multi-CPU, mid-range device with no single point of failure and hardware based RAID 5 data protection. EMC's world class customer service center has ranked #1 for 6 consecutive years by Gartner Group. Standard 2 year warranty guarantees 4 hours ON SITE w/Parts service by EMC technicians. Plus, our 'call home' proactive maintenance system monitors trends within the system and reports them automatically to our customer service center. Often, EMC technicians will repair a system BEFORE the component actually fails. The 4700 will be configured with 8 drives usable, plus 1 drive for RAID 5 parity and 1 drive for hot swap redundancy. It is scalable all the way to 7000GB (7TB) vs. only 648GB for the F85. The 4700 as configured above is 8RU. In general, the F85 does not scale sufficiently for growth, has poor customer service behind it, has no redundancy, has multiple points of failure, and utilizes a sub-par RAID 0 data protection scheme.

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RE: How would you respond to this
by Thomas.L.White＠chase.com 19 Apr '01

19 Apr '01

they usually do. this is a given in the game. They must attack in this manner because they know the truth behind the slander. tw "Golliher, Blake" <Blake.Golliher(a)netapp.com>@mathworks.com on 04/19/2001 05:41:52 PM Sent by: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com To: "'Barry Lustig'" <barry(a)lustig.com>, toasters(a)mathworks.com cc: Subject: RE: How would you respond to this why don't they just call us funny lookin', and say "mothers wear army boots!" while they're at it. sheesh! Blake! ~=) -----Original Message----- From: Barry Lustig [mailto:barry@lustig.com] Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 1:41 PM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: How would you respond to this This is an excerpt of an email that was sent to the management of a company that I'm working with. They had spec'ed F85's for a fairly low performance 10-20Mbits/sec. environment. The main requirement is reliability and ease of use. How does one respond to blatant misrepresentation of a competitors product? barry A few highlights of the comparison: - The F85 is a stripped down, single CPU, low end device with multiple points of failure and a very poor data protection. NetApps service is rated very low by industry experts and they offer next day shipment of parts that the user must install themselves. - The IP4700 is fully redundant, multi-CPU, mid-range device with no single point of failure and hardware based RAID 5 data protection. EMC's world class customer service center has ranked #1 for 6 consecutive years by Gartner Group. Standard 2 year warranty guarantees 4 hours ON SITE w/Parts service by EMC technicians. Plus, our 'call home' proactive maintenance system monitors trends within the system and reports them automatically to our customer service center. Often, EMC technicians will repair a system BEFORE the component actually fails. The 4700 will be configured with 8 drives usable, plus 1 drive for RAID 5 parity and 1 drive for hot swap redundancy. It is scalable all the way to 7000GB (7TB) vs. only 648GB for the F85. The 4700 as configured above is 8RU. In general, the F85 does not scale sufficiently for growth, has poor customer service behind it, has no redundancy, has multiple points of failure, and utilizes a sub-par RAID 0 data protection scheme.

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toasters April 2001