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RE: snapshot backup
by Traitel, Eyal 25 Apr '01

25 Apr '01

Our snapshots are to be more exact "copy on new write" as opposed to "copy on old write", with the advantage of no penalty at all in terms of performance of taking the snapshot, and performance of filesystem after taking it (think of "copy on old write" - filesystem needs to read old block, write it in the backup location, then write the new block in old place - that's 3 I/Os. For us it's only 1). We do not have to go back to specific locations on the disk, and that's a real advantage in terms of performance. In regards to full compared to snapshot - with NetApp, it's probably always better to backup snapshots, as they are point-in-time - when you've started your backup at 19:00, all of it will be consistent to 19:00 sharp, unlike traditional backup, which data changes while you backup... So - if you get me right - you can even do full backup from a snapshot... On Legato - I think you can just mention .snapshot/hourly.0 for example in your path of backup. If you use NDMP, you anyway backup a snapshot, as the filer's dump creates one automatically for you. Hope it somewhat helps, Eyal. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- eTraitel - I'm the new eBuzzword around !!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Eyal Traitel - Filer Escalation Engineer CNA, MCSE, CSA, LCA, NetApp CA Network Appliance BV Holland Office Center Kruisweg 799b 2132 NG, Hoofddorp The Netherlands Office: +31 23 567 9685 Cellular: +31 6 5497 2568 Email: eyal(a)netapp.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Get answers NOW! - NetApp On the Web - http://now.netapp.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: E.J. Jantz [mailto:ej_jantz@bswintl.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 3:55 PM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com; simon_clawson(a)mentorg.com Subject: Re: snapshot backup just a question: If the 'snapshots are "copy on writes' doesn't that mean that a backup of .snapshot is equal to and functions as a full backup? If not, can Legato using a NFS mount on a unix server capture just the info the .snapshot uses? If so, how? thanks... EJ Jantz, IST Dept. BSW International One West Third, Ste 100 Tulsa, OK 74103-3505 918 582-8771 ej_jantz(a)bswintl.com 918 295-4166 918 587-3594 fax >>> "Clawson, Simon" <simon_clawson(a)mentorg.com> 4/25/01 4:32:08 AM >>> Is it possible to backup just the .snapshot and then perform a restore from this data? I am looking for ways to speed up the backups and this seems to be a possible option. It was suggested to me by a colleague as a method of backing up Clearcase VOBS, but would it be viable for the whole filer. Of course I would need to run a full backup at tleast once a month, but this would help me speed up most of my weekly runs. Any ideas/suggestions/views? Simon Simon Clawson HDS Team Systems Administrator Mentor Graphics Uk Rivergate London Road Newbury Berkshire RG14 2QB <<Clawson, Simon.vcf>>

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RE: snapshot backup
by Melvin, Grant 25 Apr '01

25 Apr '01

Hi Simon, > Is it possible to backup just the .snapshot and then perform a restore > from this data? Yes, when restore looks at the backup tape it doesn't see the .snapshot/weekly.0 preamble so the backup to NetApp looks the same as if you hadn't specified a snapshot. As Steve pointed out some of the NDMP backup applications remember this preamble and need to be redirected on restores. > I am looking for ways to speed up the backups and this seems to be a > possible option. As our capacities grew snapshot create & delete times started to increase (pre 6.0 releases). With Data Ontap 6.0 we re-engineered our snapshot implementation and re-introduced "instantaneous" snapshot creation. Dump either via rsh, console or NDMP only ever backups from a snapshot either a named snapshot or one it creates (& manages) itself. If you are running a pre-6.0 release then I can believe you might see less impact on backups by using a named snapshot either from the snap sched set (we don't normally recommend you use these snapshots for dump because they get updated on the snap sched schedule and dump locks the snapshot its working on, e.g. the two schedules can conflict meaning you miss a valuable snap sched update) or created by the user using rsh snap create. In the past we've seen customers create a snpshot rather than let dump create it since they are going to perform multiple qtree or sub directory backups and just want one snapshot to be created. In Data Ontap 6.0 or beyond, there should be no noticable difference using dump on a named snapshot or when it needs to create its own snapshot. /etc/dumpdates is a database that dump uses to remember the time the last backup was done on the path used, so on an incremental dump we simply create a new snapshot, pick up the time of the last dump and then read out all files & directories in the new snapshot that have been modified since that timestamp. But maybe the time you are saving is actually on quiescing Clearcase and the VOB data and not on the snapshot creation. I wasn't clear. Cheers, Grant =========== grant(a)netapp.com ========== Grant Melvin === === Software Development Manager === === Data Availability & Management === |\ | __ ___ /\ __ __ === Network Appliance === | \ | |__ | /__\ |__| |__| === 475 East Java Drive === | \| |__ | / \ | | (R) === Sunnyvale === === California, 94089 === === Tel:(408)822-6761 =========== Network Appliance ========== Fax:(408)822-4578 -----Original Message----- From: Clawson, Simon [mailto:simon_clawson@mentorg.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 8:39 AM To: 'Traitel, Eyal'; 'E.J. Jantz'; toasters(a)mathworks.com; Clawson, Simon Subject: RE: snapshot backup That sounds like exactly what I meant. We currently backup / and everything below that. What I was hoping I could do was backup /.snapshot/weekly0 and then use this as my full backup. I user Veritas NetBackup to fire off the NDMP job on the filer, so I guess I would need to modify the backup path to /.snapshot/Weekly0? Simon > -----Original Message----- > From: Traitel, Eyal [mailto:eyal@netapp.com] > Sent: Wednesday April 2001 16:29 > To: 'E.J. Jantz'; toasters(a)mathworks.com; simon_clawson > Subject: RE: snapshot backup > > > Our snapshots are to be more exact "copy on new write" as > opposed to "copy on old write", with the advantage of no > penalty at all in terms of performance of taking the > snapshot, and performance of filesystem after taking it > (think of "copy on old write" - filesystem needs to read old > block, write it in the backup location, then write the new > block in old place - that's 3 I/Os. For us it's only 1). > We do not have to go back to specific locations on the disk, > and that's a real advantage in terms of performance. > > In regards to full compared to snapshot - with NetApp, it's > probably always better to backup snapshots, as they are > point-in-time - when you've started your backup at 19:00, all > of it will be consistent to 19:00 sharp, unlike traditional > backup, which data changes while you backup... So - if you > get me right - you can even do full backup from a snapshot... > > On Legato - I think you can just mention .snapshot/hourly.0 > for example in your path of backup. If you use NDMP, you > anyway backup a snapshot, as the filer's dump creates one > automatically for you. > > Hope it somewhat helps, > Eyal. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > eTraitel - I'm the new eBuzzword around !!! > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Eyal Traitel - Filer Escalation Engineer > CNA, MCSE, CSA, LCA, NetApp CA > > Network Appliance BV > Holland Office Center > Kruisweg 799b > 2132 NG, Hoofddorp > The Netherlands > Office: +31 23 567 9685 > Cellular: +31 6 5497 2568 > Email: eyal(a)netapp.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Get answers NOW! - NetApp On the Web - http://now.netapp.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > -----Original Message----- > From: E.J. Jantz [mailto:ej_jantz@bswintl.com] > Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 3:55 PM > To: toasters(a)mathworks.com; simon_clawson(a)mentorg.com > Subject: Re: snapshot backup > > > just a question: If the 'snapshots are "copy on writes' doesn't that > mean that a backup of .snapshot is equal to and functions as a full > backup? If not, can Legato using a NFS mount on a unix server capture > just the info the .snapshot uses? If so, how? > > thanks... > > EJ Jantz, IST Dept. > BSW International > One West Third, Ste 100 > Tulsa, OK 74103-3505 > 918 582-8771 > ej_jantz(a)bswintl.com > 918 295-4166 > 918 587-3594 fax > > > >>> "Clawson, Simon" <simon_clawson(a)mentorg.com> 4/25/01 4:32:08 AM > >>> > Is it possible to backup just the .snapshot and then perform a restore > from > this data? > > I am looking for ways to speed up the backups and this seems to be a > possible option. It was suggested to me by a colleague as a method of > backing up Clearcase VOBS, but would it be viable for the whole filer. > Of > course I would need to run a full backup at tleast once a month, but > this > would help me speed up most of my weekly runs. > > Any ideas/suggestions/views? > > Simon > > Simon Clawson > HDS Team Systems Administrator > Mentor Graphics Uk > Rivergate > London Road > Newbury > Berkshire > RG14 2QB > <<Clawson, Simon.vcf>> >

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fibre channel hubs
by neil lehrer 25 Apr '01

25 Apr '01

has netapp qualified any of the vixel hubs for tape backup? the hubs are much cheaper than the vixel 8100 and i don't think the lesser performance will be an issue in my case - two filers. thanks

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RE: "Case survey" stuff from NetApp
by Maglinger, Paul 25 Apr '01

25 Apr '01

I reply to them. If they don't know what's going on, how can they fix it. Anyone filling it out should be just as quick to praise their performance as they are to condemn it. I have only put in one "bad" report having to do with response time. That prompted a phone call from them and they seemed truly concerned. All in all, I've been pleased with the service (except for not getting a leather jacket.... oops, there goes that inane banter again). -----Original Message----- From: Chris Thompson [mailto:cet1@cus.cam.ac.uk] Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 14:04 To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: "Case survey" stuff from NetApp What do you do with the the e-mail that arrives from Quality.Manager(a)netapp.com after a problem is closed with NetApp, inviting you to fill in a "5 STARS Survey" form? I admit I throw them in the e-wastebin. It seems to me that providing only a method of returning these (probably only marginally meaningful) answers by e-mail is absolutely pessimal. If they really want to increase the response rate, surely NetApp should provide a method using forms at now.netapp.com? My vague recollection is that at one time a WWW-browser-based method was offered, but this doesn't seem to be the case now. Chris Thompson University of Cambridge Computing Service, Email: cet1(a)ucs.cam.ac.uk New Museums Site, Cambridge CB2 3QG, Phone: +44 1223 334715 United Kingdom.

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How to "remove"
by Braunschweiger, Udo 25 Apr '01

25 Apr '01

Please everybody: To be removed from the list toasters(a)mathworks.com <mailto:toasters@mathworks.com> send a mail-message to majordomo(a)mathworks.com <mailto:majordomo@mathworks.com> with the only words in the message body: unsubscribe toasters your. <mailto:username@company.topleveldomain> username(a)company.topleveldomain Regards Udo -----Original Message----- From: Ferd Berfl [mailto:ferd_berfl@yahoo.com] Sent: Mittwoch, 25. April 2001 16:23 To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: RE: remove you were saying, about remind people how to remove themselves, Sushi Biker. -----Original Message----- From: owner-dl-toasters(a)netapp.com [mailto:owner-dl-toasters@netapp.com]On Behalf Of Jean-Marie Joris Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 1:09 AM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: remove remove -- Jean-Marie JORIS Unix Support - Texas Instruments France Email jm-joris(a)ti.com Phone 04 93 22 14 05

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remove
by Jean-Marie Joris 25 Apr '01

25 Apr '01

remove -- Jean-Marie JORIS Unix Support - Texas Instruments France Email jm-joris(a)ti.com Phone 04 93 22 14 05

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RE: snapshot backup
by Clawson, Simon 25 Apr '01

25 Apr '01

That sounds like exactly what I meant. We currently backup / and everything below that. What I was hoping I could do was backup /.snapshot/weekly0 and then use this as my full backup. I user Veritas NetBackup to fire off the NDMP job on the filer, so I guess I would need to modify the backup path to /.snapshot/Weekly0? Simon > -----Original Message----- > From: Traitel, Eyal [mailto:eyal@netapp.com] > Sent: Wednesday April 2001 16:29 > To: 'E.J. Jantz'; toasters(a)mathworks.com; simon_clawson > Subject: RE: snapshot backup > > > Our snapshots are to be more exact "copy on new write" as > opposed to "copy on old write", with the advantage of no > penalty at all in terms of performance of taking the > snapshot, and performance of filesystem after taking it > (think of "copy on old write" - filesystem needs to read old > block, write it in the backup location, then write the new > block in old place - that's 3 I/Os. For us it's only 1). > We do not have to go back to specific locations on the disk, > and that's a real advantage in terms of performance. > > In regards to full compared to snapshot - with NetApp, it's > probably always better to backup snapshots, as they are > point-in-time - when you've started your backup at 19:00, all > of it will be consistent to 19:00 sharp, unlike traditional > backup, which data changes while you backup... So - if you > get me right - you can even do full backup from a snapshot... > > On Legato - I think you can just mention .snapshot/hourly.0 > for example in your path of backup. If you use NDMP, you > anyway backup a snapshot, as the filer's dump creates one > automatically for you. > > Hope it somewhat helps, > Eyal. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > eTraitel - I'm the new eBuzzword around !!! > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Eyal Traitel - Filer Escalation Engineer > CNA, MCSE, CSA, LCA, NetApp CA > > Network Appliance BV > Holland Office Center > Kruisweg 799b > 2132 NG, Hoofddorp > The Netherlands > Office: +31 23 567 9685 > Cellular: +31 6 5497 2568 > Email: eyal(a)netapp.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Get answers NOW! - NetApp On the Web - http://now.netapp.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > -----Original Message----- > From: E.J. Jantz [mailto:ej_jantz@bswintl.com] > Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 3:55 PM > To: toasters(a)mathworks.com; simon_clawson(a)mentorg.com > Subject: Re: snapshot backup > > > just a question: If the 'snapshots are "copy on writes' doesn't that > mean that a backup of .snapshot is equal to and functions as a full > backup? If not, can Legato using a NFS mount on a unix server capture > just the info the .snapshot uses? If so, how? > > thanks... > > EJ Jantz, IST Dept. > BSW International > One West Third, Ste 100 > Tulsa, OK 74103-3505 > 918 582-8771 > ej_jantz(a)bswintl.com > 918 295-4166 > 918 587-3594 fax > > > >>> "Clawson, Simon" <simon_clawson(a)mentorg.com> 4/25/01 4:32:08 AM > >>> > Is it possible to backup just the .snapshot and then perform a restore > from > this data? > > I am looking for ways to speed up the backups and this seems to be a > possible option. It was suggested to me by a colleague as a method of > backing up Clearcase VOBS, but would it be viable for the whole filer. > Of > course I would need to run a full backup at tleast once a month, but > this > would help me speed up most of my weekly runs. > > Any ideas/suggestions/views? > > Simon > > Simon Clawson > HDS Team Systems Administrator > Mentor Graphics Uk > Rivergate > London Road > Newbury > Berkshire > RG14 2QB > <<Clawson, Simon.vcf>> >

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RE: snapshot backup
by Fox, Adam 25 Apr '01

25 Apr '01

Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, but I don't think what you want to do will work. I'm not sure how backing up a snapshot will speed up your backups. A snapshot is a point-in-time view of an entire volume. If you run our dump command either from the command line or via ndmp against the active volume (non-snapshot) ONTAP will create a snapshot for the duration of the dump. Snapshots are not strictly incremental changes, they are a view of the whole volume. So while you certainly can backup a snapshot, (in fact, that is strongly recommended) I'm not sure how it will speed things up. If you elaborate, I'll do my best to help out. -- Adam Fox NetApp Professional Services, NC adamfox(a)netapp.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Clawson, Simon [mailto:simon_clawson@mentorg.com] > Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 5:32 AM > To: 'toasters(a)mathworks.com' > Subject: snapshot backup > > > Is it possible to backup just the .snapshot and then perform > a restore from > this data? > > I am looking for ways to speed up the backups and this seems to be a > possible option. It was suggested to me by a colleague as a method of > backing up Clearcase VOBS, but would it be viable for the > whole filer. Of > course I would need to run a full backup at tleast once a > month, but this > would help me speed up most of my weekly runs. > > Any ideas/suggestions/views? > > Simon > > Simon Clawson > HDS Team Systems Administrator > Mentor Graphics Uk > Rivergate > London Road > Newbury > Berkshire > RG14 2QB > <<Clawson, Simon.vcf>> >

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Re: snapshot backup
by E.J. Jantz 25 Apr '01

25 Apr '01

just a question: If the 'snapshots are "copy on writes' doesn't that mean that a backup of .snapshot is equal to and functions as a full backup? If not, can Legato using a NFS mount on a unix server capture just the info the .snapshot uses? If so, how? thanks... EJ Jantz, IST Dept. BSW International One West Third, Ste 100 Tulsa, OK 74103-3505 918 582-8771 ej_jantz(a)bswintl.com 918 295-4166 918 587-3594 fax >>> "Clawson, Simon" <simon_clawson(a)mentorg.com> 4/25/01 4:32:08 AM >>> Is it possible to backup just the .snapshot and then perform a restore from this data? I am looking for ways to speed up the backups and this seems to be a possible option. It was suggested to me by a colleague as a method of backing up Clearcase VOBS, but would it be viable for the whole filer. Of course I would need to run a full backup at tleast once a month, but this would help me speed up most of my weekly runs. Any ideas/suggestions/views? Simon Simon Clawson HDS Team Systems Administrator Mentor Graphics Uk Rivergate London Road Newbury Berkshire RG14 2QB <<Clawson, Simon.vcf>>

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RE: snapshot backup
by Steve Kappel 25 Apr '01

25 Apr '01

>I use Veritas NetBackup to do an NDMP dump. I guess I can just backup the >path /.snapshot..? Yes. Restore using NetBackup "Alternate Path Restore". >-----Original Message----- >From: Rick Hulsey [mailto:RHULSEY@wnco.com] >Sent: Wednesday April 2001 13:20 >To: toasters(a)mathworks.com; simon_clawson >Subject: Re: snapshot backup > > >Yes, but be careful if you back this up by mounting the volume and using NFS >or CIFS instead of using dump on the filer or some other backup client. If >the pathnames to the files that you are backing up once mounted looks >something like "/dir/.snapshot/hourly.0/otherdir/filenames" then you will >have some additional work to do if you need to restore those files. If, >however, you mount or connect to the .snapshot/hourly.0 directory then the >pathnames to your file look something like "/dir/otherdir/filenames". The >issue is that anything on a filer below .snapshot is going to be read only >so you want to make sure that .snapshot is not in the pathname that gets >stored on your tapes. > >>>> "Clawson, Simon" <simon_clawson(a)mentorg.com> 04/25/01 04:32AM >>> >Is it possible to backup just the .snapshot and then perform a restore from >this data? > >I am looking for ways to speed up the backups and this seems to be a >possible option. It was suggested to me by a colleague as a method of >backing up Clearcase VOBS, but would it be viable for the whole filer. Of >course I would need to run a full backup at tleast once a month, but this >would help me speed up most of my weekly runs. > >Any ideas/suggestions/views? > >Simon > >Simon Clawson >HDS Team Systems Administrator >Mentor Graphics Uk >Rivergate >London Road >Newbury >Berkshire >RG14 2QB ><<Clawson, Simon.vcf>> > > __________________________________________________________________________ Steve Kappel steve.kappel(a)veritas.com VERITAS Software steve(a)stevekappel.com (Personal)

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