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13531 discussions

RE: iSCSI Buzz
by Alan McLachlan 28 Feb '03

28 Feb '03

hmmmm.... I guess so... The value add of SME is high for environments with very large Exchange databases and/or a very large number of mailboxes. If it's only a small Exchange DB and your issue is that you don't want it on a simple local disk, then just getting the iSCSI NIC and configuring a virtual disk on your existing filer is acceptable, and is supportable by Microsoft since it's "local" storage. But you will have to treat backup and restore options in the same manner as a simple local disk. I agree that the price of SME is far to high for small-to-mid size Exchange environments. -----Original Message----- From: Steve Evans [mailto:sevans@foundation.sdsu.edu] Sent: Friday, 28 February 2003 5:05 PM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: RE: iSCSI Buzz So what your saying is SME gives you Exchange snapshots. If you don't care about taking snapshots of your Exchange database then it doesn't matter. Steve Evans SDSU Foundation (619) 594-0653 -----Original Message----- From: Alan McLachlan [mailto:amclachlan@asi.com.au] Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 7:42 PM To: Jeff Burton; Steve Evans Cc: toasters(a)mathworks.com Steve, iSCSI is NOT a "replacement" for SnapManager for Exchange. iSCSI will let you treat a file on a filer as a block device. There ends its usefulness. In other words, without host-side tools like SnapDrive or SnapManager you aren't any better off than with a dumb local block device (except that writes will be nice and fast due to block indirection). There are three levels of data consistency: 1. Block level - this means that a physical block reported to have been written to disk has or will make it there intact. This is your typical DAS or SAN-level consistency. 2. Filesystem level - this means that all the blocks required for a consistent point-in-time image have been written successfully when the filesystem manger considers this to have been done. SnapDrive is NetApp's volume management plug-in for VLD, iSCSI and FCP "block" devices that manages this on a Windows host where that host is managing a NTFS volume laid down on the virtual block device. What happens is: you tell SnapDrive on the server to take a snapshot - it then tells the windows NTFS filesystem manager not to accept any more file I/O requests and to complete any outstanding I/O (flush writes) - then and only then does it tell the NetApp to take a WAFL-level snapshot of the volume hosting the virtual disk. It then tells the NTFS filesystem manager on the server that it can start processing requests again. If you simply took a NetApp level snapshot of the volume holding the virtual disk, then the image of the virtual disk could internally be in an inconsistent state, similar to a dirty shutdown of the Windows server. 3. Application level - this means that all of the file I/O OR block I/O operations required to keep an applications data files consistent from an application perspective (bearing in mind that the application will be managing outstanding operations in RAM) are completed at the times when the application expects, such as when you shut the application down or when you send a request through it's backup API to backup or restore it's data. Raw iSCSI gives you level 1 consistency only. There is no facility for taking consistent point in time snapshots that you can use for online backups. You can use filer level snapshots if you like, but there's arisk that you won't be able to mount the snapshotted volume without some corruption. SnapDrive gives you level 2 consistency. This is better and works will with databases that have a hot backup mode, like Oracle, or where you don't mind halting the database for a few seconds so that you don't have to deal with log files. To use this with Exchange you still have to manually manger restores with integrity checks etc. SnapManager provides Exchange-specific functions through the Exchange backup API to allow you to use snapshots to manage online backups etc. This gives you level 3 consistency for your Exchange backups as well as super fast restores from snapshots etc. iSCSI is good, but using it by itself is like taking the VLD component of SnapDrive or SnapManager without the rest. -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Burton [mailto:burtonj@pprd.abbott.com] Sent: Friday, 28 February 2003 8:57 AM To: Steve Evans Cc: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: Re: iSCSI Buzz On Mon, Feb 24, 2003 at 10:12:44AM -0800, Steve Evans wrote: > I've been listening to all the iSCSI buzz with NetApp in the news. > From what I've gathered all you need is OnTAP 6.4 and a $700 adapter > for the host server. > > What are people planning on doing with this. I would like to use it > with Exchange 2000 and not purchase the SnapManager for Exchange > option (at $20,000). > > Steve Evans > SDSU Foundation > (619) 594-0653 Per: http://now.netapp.com/NOW/products/iSCSI/ you also need a license for iSCSI, but it sounds like it's free as long as your filer's software support agreement is active. I was surprised to find the license free, so I may be missing something. We do not have any plans to use iSCSI anywhere in our environment anytime soon. I seem to remember Gartner Group stating that iSCSI will not become popular until late 2004 or later. -- ______________________________________________________________ Jeff Burton Storage Architect Abbott Laboratories EMAIL: Jeffrey.Burton(a)Abbott.com Dept. GB16/Bldg. AP9A-LL PHONE: 847-935-5778 100 Abbott Park Rd. FAX: 847-935-0142 Abbott Park, IL 60064-6115 **** ASI Solutions Disclaimer **** The material transmitted may contain confidential and/or privileged material and is intended only for the addressee. If you receive this in error, please notify the sender and destroy any copies of the material immediately. ASI will protect your Privacy according to the 10 Privacy Principles outlined under the new Privacy Act, Dec 2001. This email is also subject to copyright. Any use of or reliance upon this material by persons or entities other than the addressee is prohibited. E-mails may be interfered with, may contain computer viruses or other defects. Under no circumstances do we accept liability for any loss or damage which may result from your receipt of this message or any attachments. **** END OF MESSAGE **** **** ASI Solutions Disclaimer **** The material transmitted may contain confidential and/or privileged material and is intended only for the addressee. If you receive this in error, please notify the sender and destroy any copies of the material immediately. ASI will protect your Privacy according to the 10 Privacy Principles outlined under the new Privacy Act, Dec 2001. This email is also subject to copyright. Any use of or reliance upon this material by persons or entities other than the addressee is prohibited. E-mails may be interfered with, may contain computer viruses or other defects. Under no circumstances do we accept liability for any loss or damage which may result from your receipt of this message or any attachments. **** END OF MESSAGE ****

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RE: iSCSI Buzz
by Steve Evans 28 Feb '03

28 Feb '03

So what your saying is SME gives you Exchange snapshots. If you don't care about taking snapshots of your Exchange database then it doesn't matter. Steve Evans SDSU Foundation (619) 594-0653 -----Original Message----- From: Alan McLachlan [mailto:amclachlan@asi.com.au] Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 7:42 PM To: Jeff Burton; Steve Evans Cc: toasters(a)mathworks.com Steve, iSCSI is NOT a "replacement" for SnapManager for Exchange. iSCSI will let you treat a file on a filer as a block device. There ends its usefulness. In other words, without host-side tools like SnapDrive or SnapManager you aren't any better off than with a dumb local block device (except that writes will be nice and fast due to block indirection). There are three levels of data consistency: 1. Block level - this means that a physical block reported to have been written to disk has or will make it there intact. This is your typical DAS or SAN-level consistency. 2. Filesystem level - this means that all the blocks required for a consistent point-in-time image have been written successfully when the filesystem manger considers this to have been done. SnapDrive is NetApp's volume management plug-in for VLD, iSCSI and FCP "block" devices that manages this on a Windows host where that host is managing a NTFS volume laid down on the virtual block device. What happens is: you tell SnapDrive on the server to take a snapshot - it then tells the windows NTFS filesystem manager not to accept any more file I/O requests and to complete any outstanding I/O (flush writes) - then and only then does it tell the NetApp to take a WAFL-level snapshot of the volume hosting the virtual disk. It then tells the NTFS filesystem manager on the server that it can start processing requests again. If you simply took a NetApp level snapshot of the volume holding the virtual disk, then the image of the virtual disk could internally be in an inconsistent state, similar to a dirty shutdown of the Windows server. 3. Application level - this means that all of the file I/O OR block I/O operations required to keep an applications data files consistent from an application perspective (bearing in mind that the application will be managing outstanding operations in RAM) are completed at the times when the application expects, such as when you shut the application down or when you send a request through it's backup API to backup or restore it's data. Raw iSCSI gives you level 1 consistency only. There is no facility for taking consistent point in time snapshots that you can use for online backups. You can use filer level snapshots if you like, but there's arisk that you won't be able to mount the snapshotted volume without some corruption. SnapDrive gives you level 2 consistency. This is better and works will with databases that have a hot backup mode, like Oracle, or where you don't mind halting the database for a few seconds so that you don't have to deal with log files. To use this with Exchange you still have to manually manger restores with integrity checks etc. SnapManager provides Exchange-specific functions through the Exchange backup API to allow you to use snapshots to manage online backups etc. This gives you level 3 consistency for your Exchange backups as well as super fast restores from snapshots etc. iSCSI is good, but using it by itself is like taking the VLD component of SnapDrive or SnapManager without the rest. -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Burton [mailto:burtonj@pprd.abbott.com] Sent: Friday, 28 February 2003 8:57 AM To: Steve Evans Cc: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: Re: iSCSI Buzz On Mon, Feb 24, 2003 at 10:12:44AM -0800, Steve Evans wrote: > I've been listening to all the iSCSI buzz with NetApp in the news. > From what I've gathered all you need is OnTAP 6.4 and a $700 adapter > for the host server. > > What are people planning on doing with this. I would like to use it > with Exchange 2000 and not purchase the SnapManager for Exchange > option (at $20,000). > > Steve Evans > SDSU Foundation > (619) 594-0653 Per: http://now.netapp.com/NOW/products/iSCSI/ you also need a license for iSCSI, but it sounds like it's free as long as your filer's software support agreement is active. I was surprised to find the license free, so I may be missing something. We do not have any plans to use iSCSI anywhere in our environment anytime soon. I seem to remember Gartner Group stating that iSCSI will not become popular until late 2004 or later. -- ______________________________________________________________ Jeff Burton Storage Architect Abbott Laboratories EMAIL: Jeffrey.Burton(a)Abbott.com Dept. GB16/Bldg. AP9A-LL PHONE: 847-935-5778 100 Abbott Park Rd. FAX: 847-935-0142 Abbott Park, IL 60064-6115 **** ASI Solutions Disclaimer **** The material transmitted may contain confidential and/or privileged material and is intended only for the addressee. If you receive this in error, please notify the sender and destroy any copies of the material immediately. ASI will protect your Privacy according to the 10 Privacy Principles outlined under the new Privacy Act, Dec 2001. This email is also subject to copyright. Any use of or reliance upon this material by persons or entities other than the addressee is prohibited. E-mails may be interfered with, may contain computer viruses or other defects. Under no circumstances do we accept liability for any loss or damage which may result from your receipt of this message or any attachments. **** END OF MESSAGE ****

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RE: iSCSI Buzz
by Alan McLachlan 28 Feb '03

28 Feb '03

Steve, iSCSI is NOT a "replacement" for SnapManager for Exchange. iSCSI will let you treat a file on a filer as a block device. There ends its usefulness. In other words, without host-side tools like SnapDrive or SnapManager you aren't any better off than with a dumb local block device (except that writes will be nice and fast due to block indirection). There are three levels of data consistency: 1. Block level - this means that a physical block reported to have been written to disk has or will make it there intact. This is your typical DAS or SAN-level consistency. 2. Filesystem level - this means that all the blocks required for a consistent point-in-time image have been written successfully when the filesystem manger considers this to have been done. SnapDrive is NetApp's volume management plug-in for VLD, iSCSI and FCP "block" devices that manages this on a Windows host where that host is managing a NTFS volume laid down on the virtual block device. What happens is: you tell SnapDrive on the server to take a snapshot - it then tells the windows NTFS filesystem manager not to accept any more file I/O requests and to complete any outstanding I/O (flush writes) - then and only then does it tell the NetApp to take a WAFL-level snapshot of the volume hosting the virtual disk. It then tells the NTFS filesystem manager on the server that it can start processing requests again. If you simply took a NetApp level snapshot of the volume holding the virtual disk, then the image of the virtual disk could internally be in an inconsistent state, similar to a dirty shutdown of the Windows server. 3. Application level - this means that all of the file I/O OR block I/O operations required to keep an applications data files consistent from an application perspective (bearing in mind that the application will be managing outstanding operations in RAM) are completed at the times when the application expects, such as when you shut the application down or when you send a request through it's backup API to backup or restore it's data. Raw iSCSI gives you level 1 consistency only. There is no facility for taking consistent point in time snapshots that you can use for online backups. You can use filer level snapshots if you like, but there's arisk that you won't be able to mount the snapshotted volume without some corruption. SnapDrive gives you level 2 consistency. This is better and works will with databases that have a hot backup mode, like Oracle, or where you don't mind halting the database for a few seconds so that you don't have to deal with log files. To use this with Exchange you still have to manually manger restores with integrity checks etc. SnapManager provides Exchange-specific functions through the Exchange backup API to allow you to use snapshots to manage online backups etc. This gives you level 3 consistency for your Exchange backups as well as super fast restores from snapshots etc. iSCSI is good, but using it by itself is like taking the VLD component of SnapDrive or SnapManager without the rest. -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Burton [mailto:burtonj@pprd.abbott.com] Sent: Friday, 28 February 2003 8:57 AM To: Steve Evans Cc: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: Re: iSCSI Buzz On Mon, Feb 24, 2003 at 10:12:44AM -0800, Steve Evans wrote: > I've been listening to all the iSCSI buzz with NetApp in the news. From > what I've gathered all you need is OnTAP 6.4 and a $700 adapter for the > host server. > > What are people planning on doing with this. I would like to use it > with Exchange 2000 and not purchase the SnapManager for Exchange option > (at $20,000). > > Steve Evans > SDSU Foundation > (619) 594-0653 Per: http://now.netapp.com/NOW/products/iSCSI/ you also need a license for iSCSI, but it sounds like it's free as long as your filer's software support agreement is active. I was surprised to find the license free, so I may be missing something. We do not have any plans to use iSCSI anywhere in our environment anytime soon. I seem to remember Gartner Group stating that iSCSI will not become popular until late 2004 or later. -- ______________________________________________________________ Jeff Burton Storage Architect Abbott Laboratories EMAIL: Jeffrey.Burton(a)Abbott.com Dept. GB16/Bldg. AP9A-LL PHONE: 847-935-5778 100 Abbott Park Rd. FAX: 847-935-0142 Abbott Park, IL 60064-6115 **** ASI Solutions Disclaimer **** The material transmitted may contain confidential and/or privileged material and is intended only for the addressee. If you receive this in error, please notify the sender and destroy any copies of the material immediately. ASI will protect your Privacy according to the 10 Privacy Principles outlined under the new Privacy Act, Dec 2001. This email is also subject to copyright. Any use of or reliance upon this material by persons or entities other than the addressee is prohibited. E-mails may be interfered with, may contain computer viruses or other defects. Under no circumstances do we accept liability for any loss or damage which may result from your receipt of this message or any attachments. **** END OF MESSAGE ****

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RE: SPARE LOW
by Hill, Aaron 27 Feb '03

27 Feb '03

Have you got spares on the system at the moment? (sysconfig -r) I haven't used an F87, but I assume that if you have a spare drive bay, all you need to do is slot a drive in and the filer will pick it up. The console should output something to you saying the new disk is detected. That said, I have not used anything less than 6.1.2, so things could be different for earlier ONTAP and filer versions. Aaron -----Original Message----- From: Frank Bonnet [mailto:bonnetf@bart.esiee.fr] Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 10:54 PM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: SPARE LOW Hi Each time I reboot my F87 I get a SPARE LOW message does this mean I have to install a new disk as a spare disk to run safely ? If yes where is described the procedure to add a spare disk ? Thanks a lot -- Frank Bonnet

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iSCSI Buzz
by Steve Evans 27 Feb '03

27 Feb '03

I've been listening to all the iSCSI buzz with NetApp in the news. From what I've gathered all you need is OnTAP 6.4 and a $700 adapter for the host server. What are people planning on doing with this. I would like to use it with Exchange 2000 and not purchase the SnapManager for Exchange option (at $20,000). Steve Evans SDSU Foundation (619) 594-0653

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RE: Volume management through filer view.
by Aldrich David S 27 Feb '03

27 Feb '03

Filer View works fine. Our NT admins use it all the time (You know the people that can only point and click!) Dave Unix Sys Admin -----Original Message----- From: Clawson, Simon [mailto:simon_clawson@mentorg.com] Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 8:37 AM To: 'Borders, Rich' Cc: 'toasters(a)mathworks.com' Subject: RE: Volume management through filer view. Hi, I have not tried it yet. I have some disk and want to create a volume or four, but I am dubious about using FV over the command line and wanted to experiment. Simon -----Original Message----- From: Borders, Rich [mailto:Rich.Borders@netapp.com] Sent: 27 February 2003 14:37 To: Clawson, Simon Subject: RE: Volume management through filer view. > -----Original Message----- > From: Clawson, Simon [mailto:simon_clawson@mentorg.com] > Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 8:34 AM > To: 'toasters(a)mathworks.com' > > Have any of you ever tried the volume management tools in > filer view? Volume creation etc? It looks pretty easy, but > does it work? So far. Are you seeing issues? > Simon > > Simon Clawson Mentor Graphics > HDL Designer Series R&D Rivergate > Systems Administrator London Road > Berkshire > RG14 2QB > TEL: 01635 811409 Rich

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RE: Volume management through filer view.
by Paul McGuinness (ext. 771) 27 Feb '03

27 Feb '03

Only last week I have created and destroyed some volumes during a filer upgrade, no problems, much better than earlier NetApp Releases versions. I'm currently running on 6.3.1 -----Original Message----- From: Clawson, Simon [mailto:simon_clawson@mentorg.com] Sent: 27 February 2003 13:34 To: 'toasters(a)mathworks.com' Subject: Volume management through filer view. Have any of you ever tried the volume management tools in filer view? Volume creation etc? It looks pretty easy, but does it work? Simon Simon Clawson Mentor Graphics HDL Designer Series R&D Rivergate Systems Administrator London Road Berkshire RG14 2QB TEL: 01635 811409 ************************************************************************** The information contained in this e-mail is confidential, may be privileged and is intended only for the use of the recipient named above. If you are not the intended recipient or a representative of the intended recipient, you have received this e-mail in error and must not copy, use or disclose the contents of this email to anybody else. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and permanently delete the copy you received. This email has been swept for computer viruses. However, you should carry out your own virus checks. Registered in Ireland, No. 205721. http://www.FINEOS.com **************************************************************************

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RE: Volume management through filer view.
by Clawson, Simon 27 Feb '03

27 Feb '03

Hi, I have not tried it yet. I have some disk and want to create a volume or four, but I am dubious about using FV over the command line and wanted to experiment. Simon -----Original Message----- From: Borders, Rich [mailto:Rich.Borders@netapp.com] Sent: 27 February 2003 14:37 To: Clawson, Simon Subject: RE: Volume management through filer view. > -----Original Message----- > From: Clawson, Simon [mailto:simon_clawson@mentorg.com] > Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 8:34 AM > To: 'toasters(a)mathworks.com' > > Have any of you ever tried the volume management tools in > filer view? Volume creation etc? It looks pretty easy, but > does it work? So far. Are you seeing issues? > Simon > > Simon Clawson Mentor Graphics > HDL Designer Series R&D Rivergate > Systems Administrator London Road > Berkshire > RG14 2QB > TEL: 01635 811409 Rich

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RE: Volume management through filer view.
by julian.jacobs＠bt.com 27 Feb '03

27 Feb '03

Hi, Yes I've used it. I have created and destroyed some volumes. One problem I've had is changing a snapmirrored volume into a live volume via filer view without using the command line. I also try and use DFM to run commands. It allows our ops bridge a view of what is happening on the filers. Julian Jacobs UNIX Operations Manager BT WebServices Email: julian.jacobs(a)bt.com British Telecommunications plc Registered office: 81 Newgate Street London EC1A 7AJ Registered in England no 1800000 This electronic message contains information from British Telecommunications plc which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify us by telephone or email (to the numbers or address above) immediately. -----Original Message----- From: Clawson, Simon [mailto:simon_clawson@mentorg.com] Sent: 27 February 2003 13:34 To: 'toasters(a)mathworks.com' Subject: Volume management through filer view. Have any of you ever tried the volume management tools in filer view? Volume creation etc? It looks pretty easy, but does it work? Simon Simon Clawson Mentor Graphics HDL Designer Series R&D Rivergate Systems Administrator London Road Berkshire RG14 2QB TEL: 01635 811409

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Volume management through filer view.
by Clawson, Simon 27 Feb '03

27 Feb '03

Have any of you ever tried the volume management tools in filer view? Volume creation etc? It looks pretty easy, but does it work? Simon Simon Clawson Mentor Graphics HDL Designer Series R&D Rivergate Systems Administrator London Road Berkshire RG14 2QB TEL: 01635 811409

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