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DFM 3.1 Management Station Requirements
by Holland, William L 03 Jan '05

03 Jan '05

The documentation specifies the minimum hardware and software requirements. However, what is more realistic for hardware in terms of CPU speed, RAM, and disk space for managing an F825 (3TB Raw), FAS940 (12TB Raw), FAS960 (12 TB Raw), and R200 (48TB Raw). I want to monitor SnapMirror, user quotas, and Performance of all 4 units.

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RE: EMC vs NetApp
by SKIP HOFMANN 31 Dec '04

31 Dec '04

Simply put NO! There is something nice about ease of use -----Original Message----- From: Kelsey Cummings [mailto:kgc@sonic.net] Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 3:34 PM To: Dirk Schmiedt Cc: SKIP HOFMANN; toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: Re: EMC vs NetApp On Thu, Dec 30, 2004 at 12:07:24AM +0100, Dirk Schmiedt wrote: > SKIP HOFMANN wrote: > >the FASTEST NAS is BLUEARC > ??? I'm using NAS for stabilty, reliabilty, easy of use and, performance in that order. Does anyone beat NetApp on these issues? If I had different performance requirements I might have different opinions. -K

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RE: EMC vs NetApp
by Bokkelkamp Ernst 30 Dec '04

30 Dec '04

Hallo Dirk, Good job, I didn't know that you dig into the NAS equipment that deep (even without the use of a screwdriver). However, I am missing one important point in the discussion: Performance is nice, but what about the services offered by the equipment. Even I, and you know my preferences, do advise to look at EMC as a potential platform for certain solutions if the most important factor happens to be the price and not the services offered by the operating system. If you need plain NFS without the need to do snapshots for ie databases, a-/synchronous replication, diskbased backup, iscsi, tape backup, SAN, CIFS, flexible volumes, highly reliable filesystem, security, support, etc. then you can just aswell look at any supplier based on performance figures. But if you need a particular service to be able to do the job effeciently and/or economically then you must weigh the performance against the needs, and then any of the named suppliers could just have the right solution (at least on paper) available. What our favorite company offers is a proven trackrecord that other companies would like to reach...... Btw. If you need low-cost plain NAS and don't worry to much about performance and security: http://www.serverelements.com/naslite.php ;-) Bye Ernie -----Original Message----- From: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com [mailto:owner-toasters@mathworks.com] On Behalf Of Dirk Schmiedt Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 12:07 AM To: SKIP HOFMANN Cc: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: Re: EMC vs NetApp SKIP HOFMANN wrote: > the FASTEST NAS is BLUEARC ??? Hello Skip Do you have real new comparative test results or are you just citing the press releases from Bluearc? ;-) http://www.bluearc.com/html/news/press_releases/pr_specsfs_110104.shtml Neither NetApp nor BlueArc are the fastest NAS providers ... They are both "slow" compared to ... Exanet, IBM, Panasas, Spinnaker, ... Let's have a look at the NFS-Benchmarks BlueArc cites ( http://www.spec.org/sfs97r1/results/sfs97r1.html ) I will focus on the TCP results: Company System Proto Result Overall Response Time BlueArc Inc. Titan 32 TCP 101571 1.78 Exanet Inc. ExaStore EX600FC TCP 178156 1.04 IBM Corporation IBM eServer p5 570 TCP 145362 1.17 Panasas, Inc. Panasas ActiveScale TCP 305805 1.76 (!!!) Spinnaker Networks SpinServer 4100 TCP 134385 1.90 But ... first let's stay at a small BlueArc <-> NetApp comparison as this is the toasters list. :-) BlueArc Titan 32 50858 1.76 Many io/s with bad response time. NetApp FAS980 36063 0.95 Less io/s with fast response time. The Fas980 has three quarters (72 %) of io/s with almost half response time (54%) in this benchmark. (Yes, I know about the saturation with high loads... More about this later.) Does the fastest mean 1) highest i/o rates? 2) lowest response times? 3) (1) and (2) at the same time? 4) With which kind of protocols? UDP / TCP, NFS / CIFS / ...? If you check the details, you can see many of them getting into saturation/overload problems.... http://www.spec.org/sfs97r1/results/res2003q4/sfs97r1-20031103-00166.htm l The graph really shows that Panasas wanted to hit the 300k mark and hit the saturation with 7.8 msec. :-) Same thing with BlueArc: http://www.spec.org/sfs97r1/results/res2004q3/sfs97r1-20040913-00203.htm l NetApp already stops at 2.5 msecs and not at 5.2msecs response time like BlueArc does ... One of the lousiest results comes from the EMC Celerra NS600 cluster: 38459 ios @ 10.3 msecs ... ( http://www.spec.org/sfs97r1/results/res2003q1/sfs97r1-20030203-00125.htm l ) Let me try to have a look at still comparable "Real" and not Overall Response Times at 35k-40k io/s: (That's where NetApp stops with the single head.) Vendor Model CPU RAM NVRAM IO/s "Real" RT @ 35k-40k GB GB (if value is available, if not, next higher value) BlueArc Titan 32 1(+7) 14+8 1 40488 2.6 (1 FS) BlueArc Titan 32 2FS-Mod 2(+14) 28+8 2 40513 1.3 (2 FS) Exanet EX600FC 12 72 84 36390 0.8 IBM eServer p5 570 4(8) 128 16 44175 0.7 NetApp FAS980 2 8 0.5 36063 2.5 (1 FS) NetApp FAS980c 4 16 1 41157 1.0 (2 FS) Panasas Active Scale 60 240 240 60864 0.8 Spinnaker SpinServer 4100 12 24 10 35536 1.1 Smaller (not even the half) RAM size than Titan 32: ==================================================== The FAS980 (8 GB RAM) is still almost as fast as the Titan 32 (22 GB): 36063 @ 2.5 msec. <-> 40488 @ 2.6 msec. Same RAM size comparison: ==================================== The FAS980 cluster (16 GB RAM) is 2.5 (!) times faster than the Titan 32 (14+8 GB): 41157 @ 1.0 msec. <-> 40488 @ 2.6 msec. Dual "Head" comparison: ===================================== The FAS980 cluster (16 GB RAM) is still faster than the Titan 32 with two FileSystemModules (24+8 GB) which is not even is a cluster. 41157 @ 1.0 msec. <-> 40513 @ 1.3 msec. b.t.w. :The FAS980c is a real cluster and afaik BlueArc doesn't have clustered high availability solutions: http://www.bluearc.com/html/library/downloads/titan_spec.pdf => If I compare the RAM and cache sizes of NetApp to the competitors ... I finaly see one thing: NetApp offers a very thin, io-optimized operating system with an excellent filesystem that is able to create a still "good" performance with even small "cheap" hardware. Please, don't start discussing the prices for the software licenses... ;-) but afaik they are still acceptable. :-) So, if you change your expression about the fastest BlueArc NAS-solution to something like "fastest NAS with one single CPU (with many (7) FPGAs support), with ...". In this very small area, BlueArc "appears" to have the fastest solutions, currently. Imho: If NetApp would start the same lousy saturation trick with the FAS980, they would reach the same results. But beside this small area where BlueArc "tops", I only can see big marketing efforts of them in trying to cheat/fool/mislead (don't know which one of these expressions is the softest...) the customers in yelling out loud "we are the fastest". And this is something I really don't like ... and reminds me to other storage vendors I also prefer to not use ... ;-) So imho we should give the "Fastest-NAS-crown" to the IBM eServer p5 570 (SingleHead/Backplane) 145362 @ 1.17 or the Panasas AS Cluster (ClusteredMultiHead) 305805 @ 1.76. BlueArc gets my current "We did the lousy saturation trick and/but yell it out loud" crown. :-( ;-) So therefore my question once again: Why do you believe that "Bluearc" is the fastest NAS-solution provider? I tried to explain my current opinion and hope you or anyone else can enlighten me if I'm wrong. Best regards! Dirk Schmiedt By the way: I still haven't found out, wether the SFS97r1 response time is measured on the client (including network delays) or on the server side? Can anybody explain this to me? So therefore I'm still dreaming of a multiprotocol high available, fault tolerant clustered NAS head which can do takeovers without loosing the states/connections (even at CIFS), with OS upgrades without visible reboots, with ... and it should not cost more than 1000$ @ head ... Just dreaming ... ;-)

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Support for big-endian DCs
by Luke Howard 30 Dec '04

30 Dec '04

Is there any update on when Data ONTAP will support big-endian domain controllers? (This is bug 15548.) -- Luke --

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30 Dec '04

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RE: EMC vs NetApp
by SKIP HOFMANN 30 Dec '04

30 Dec '04

These products are really different animals. EMC is the leader for SANs Netapp is the leader for NAS they both have their place in business the FASTEST SAN is Hitachi the FASTEST NAS is BLUEARC NAS is good for CIFS SAN is good for High performance DAS replacement -----Original Message----- From: aaron hirsch [mailto:aaronh@uptime.net] Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 9:21 AM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: RE: EMC vs NetApp Me to!!! Me to!!! Aaron -----Original Message----- From: Grant, Derek [mailto:Derek.Grant@StrategIT.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 9:45 AM To: Kelsey Cummings; toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: RE: EMC vs NetApp I just wanted to add my name to the list. Could everyone who responded to Kelsey please forward their responses. I'd like to see how others felt about the two products and their experiences. Thanks Derek -----Original Message----- From: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com [mailto:owner-toasters@mathworks.com] On Behalf Of Kelsey Cummings Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 4:30 PM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: Re: EMC vs NetApp I just wanted to say thanks to everyone that responded to me off-list! Thanks! -- Kelsey Cummings - kgc(a)sonic.net sonic.net, inc. System Administrator 2260 Apollo Way 707.522.1000 (Voice) Santa Rosa, CA 95407 707.547.2199 (Fax) http://www.sonic.net/ Fingerprint = D5F9 667F 5D32 7347 0B79 8DB7 2B42 86B6 4E2C 3896

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RE: EMC vs NetApp
by Haber, David J. 29 Dec '04

29 Dec '04

Ditto -----Original Message----- From: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com [mailto:owner-toasters@mathworks.com] On Behalf Of aaron hirsch Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 12:21 PM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: RE: EMC vs NetApp Me to!!! Me to!!! Aaron -----Original Message----- From: Grant, Derek [mailto:Derek.Grant@StrategIT.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 9:45 AM To: Kelsey Cummings; toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: RE: EMC vs NetApp I just wanted to add my name to the list. Could everyone who responded to Kelsey please forward their responses. I'd like to see how others felt about the two products and their experiences. Thanks Derek -----Original Message----- From: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com [mailto:owner-toasters@mathworks.com] On Behalf Of Kelsey Cummings Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 4:30 PM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: Re: EMC vs NetApp I just wanted to say thanks to everyone that responded to me off-list! Thanks! -- Kelsey Cummings - kgc(a)sonic.net sonic.net, inc. System Administrator 2260 Apollo Way 707.522.1000 (Voice) Santa Rosa, CA 95407 707.547.2199 (Fax) http://www.sonic.net/ Fingerprint = D5F9 667F 5D32 7347 0B79 8DB7 2B42 86B6 4E2C 3896

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RE: EMC vs NetApp
by aaron hirsch 29 Dec '04

29 Dec '04

Me to!!! Me to!!! Aaron -----Original Message----- From: Grant, Derek [mailto:Derek.Grant@StrategIT.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 9:45 AM To: Kelsey Cummings; toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: RE: EMC vs NetApp I just wanted to add my name to the list. Could everyone who responded to Kelsey please forward their responses. I'd like to see how others felt about the two products and their experiences. Thanks Derek -----Original Message----- From: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com [mailto:owner-toasters@mathworks.com] On Behalf Of Kelsey Cummings Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 4:30 PM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: Re: EMC vs NetApp I just wanted to say thanks to everyone that responded to me off-list! Thanks! -- Kelsey Cummings - kgc(a)sonic.net sonic.net, inc. System Administrator 2260 Apollo Way 707.522.1000 (Voice) Santa Rosa, CA 95407 707.547.2199 (Fax) http://www.sonic.net/ Fingerprint = D5F9 667F 5D32 7347 0B79 8DB7 2B42 86B6 4E2C 3896

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RE: EMC vs NetApp
by Grant, Derek 29 Dec '04

29 Dec '04

I just wanted to add my name to the list. Could everyone who responded to Kelsey please forward their responses. I'd like to see how others felt about the two products and their experiences. Thanks Derek -----Original Message----- From: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com [mailto:owner-toasters@mathworks.com] On Behalf Of Kelsey Cummings Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 4:30 PM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: Re: EMC vs NetApp I just wanted to say thanks to everyone that responded to me off-list! Thanks! -- Kelsey Cummings - kgc(a)sonic.net sonic.net, inc. System Administrator 2260 Apollo Way 707.522.1000 (Voice) Santa Rosa, CA 95407 707.547.2199 (Fax) http://www.sonic.net/ Fingerprint = D5F9 667F 5D32 7347 0B79 8DB7 2B42 86B6 4E2C 3896

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EMC vs NetApp
by Kelsey Cummings 29 Dec '04

29 Dec '04

A company I contract for is shopping for new storage to replace some old 7xx series filers and we are about 90% sold on a fas270c. However, I've been asked to compare this to the current EMC offerings which EMC claims to have now beat NetApp on price and performance while freely admitting that their 600 line was indeed a piece of crap. They insist that the 500 series is a solid product that can beat NetApp in a bake off. Does anyone have experiences with the *new* EMC Calera NAS boxes? -K

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