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13520 discussions

RE: NDMP backups, timeouts
by George, Andrew 07 Sep '06

07 Sep '06

Hi We noticed it after upgrading from onTap 6.3 to 6.5 The fix in that case was to turn of ndmpd.offset_map.enable. What happened in (I think it was in 6.4) was ndmpd had a slight functionality change so it does a lot more processing up front. Andrew -----Original Message----- From: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com [mailto:owner-toasters@mathworks.com] On Behalf Of Scott T. Mikusko Sent: Thursday, 7 September 2006 9:20 AM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: NDMP backups, timeouts I'm running into a recurring issue with backing up my NearStore and a long F760 filer. In the procoess of backing some large filesystems (qtrees), it appears that NDMP is basically timing out and fails. I'm running Veritas NetBackup 6.0 (finally upgrading from 4.5 recently). I think the issue has to do with NDMP starting the dump commands on the filer, which then does a three-way backup to another filer with local tape drives. The debug from ndmp logs shows for a manual full backup of a filer: Sep 05 21:05:57 EDT [ndmpd:58]: Log message: DUMP: creating "/vol/vol0/../snapshot_for_backup.370" snapshot. Sep 05 21:06:05 EDT [ndmpd:58]: Log message: DUMP: Using Partial Volume Dump with Exclude Lists Sep 05 21:07:31 EDT [ndmpd:58]: Log message: DUMP: Date of this level 1 dump: Tue Sep 5 21:05:57 2006. Sep 05 21:07:31 EDT [ndmpd:58]: Log message: DUMP: Date of last level 0 dump: Fri Aug 18 19:20:57 2006. Sep 05 21:07:31 EDT [ndmpd:58]: Log message: DUMP: Dumping /vol/vol0/files3.rt to NDMP connection Sep 05 21:07:31 EDT [ndmpd:58]: Log message: DUMP: mapping (Pass I)[regular files] It never completes the mapping of the files in Pass I. It just sits there. The filesystems I'm backing up are between 250-650GB with a LOT of small files (millions) and many subdirs. Tons of mail and html files. My guess is that the amount of files and dirs are getting large that NDMP can't map them fully and is timing out after 8 hours. It shouldn't take that long to map files for the size of data it's doing; I've seem mapping times be much less for larger sets of data. I know that the filesystem topology can cause NDMP backups to be slow, depending on file sizes, data layout, filer load, network etc, but this is happening on moderately busy filers or bone idle NearStores. Anyone run across lengthy DUMP times? Chewing through NOW and Veritas support site hasn't turned up anything obvious. Just curious if others have run into NDMP/dump issues like this. -Scott "This e-mail and any attachments to it (the "Communication") is, unless otherwise stated, confidential, may contain copyright material and is for the use only of the intended recipient. If you receive the Communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete the Communication and the return e-mail, and do not read, copy, retransmit or otherwise deal with it. Any views expressed in the Communication are those of the individual sender only, unless expressly stated to be those of Australia and New Zealand Banking Group Limited ABN 11 005 357 522, or any of its related entities including ANZ National Bank Limited (together "ANZ"). ANZ does not accept liability in connection with the integrity of or errors in the Communication, computer virus, data corruption, interference or delay arising from or in respect of the Communication."

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Re: when to use minra ?
by Eyal Traitel 02 Sep '06

02 Sep '06

By the way - an interesting option could be to use FlexClone instead of breaking the mirror - you clone the mirrored volume, and then you change its minra setting. By the way - if you're not using very large aggregates on the R200 that might your ultimate cure - you wanna have many disks involved in the I/O. Eyal. On 9/1/06, Peter D. Gray <pdg(a)uow.edu.au> wrote: > > On Fri, Sep 01, 2006 at 08:47:01AM -0500, Callaway, Michael wrote: > > Quote: > > "My NDMP tape backups from the R200 are pretty slow. I average > > about 2 MBytes per sec. Note that backups of other volumes > > on the R200 work really well, so there is no problem > > on the R200 or the network." > > > > Your 2MB/sec sampling, when was that taken? Was it at the beginning, > > middle, end of the backup? You -should- be getting a really slow > > through-put rate at the start of a backup, since ndmp basically walks > > through and takes a look at each file before actually backing them up. > > When you have a large volume it will take a while to look at each file, > > it's worse with volumes that have a large number of small files. > > > > Good thought, but no. > > The backup is slow after the metadata dump is finished. > > Peak is slow as well (5 Meg or so). > > Regards, > pdg > > -- > > See mail headers for contact information. > > -- Yours, Eyal.

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RE: when to use minra ?
by Glenn Walker 02 Sep '06

02 Sep '06

Actually - I don't understand why minra would not be possibly enabled on destination but not source. I understand that these are volume-level options, but it would make more sense to me to have an option to override that particular setting on a destination volume due to issues just as you've described here. Smells like a great RFE to me :) Glenn -----Original Message----- From: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com [mailto:owner-toasters@mathworks.com] On Behalf Of Peter D. Gray Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 7:53 PM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: Re: when to use minra ? Thanks for the replies. Some background on this question. I have 2 filers used for email storage (NFS, attached to 2 mirapoint mail stores). They have lots of small files. I am mirroring these 2 filers to an R200 for backup, but I also take tape copies via NDMP every 30 days or so. The volumes contain about 350GB each of actual data, excluding snapshots, and 5 million files. My NDMP tape backups from the R200 are pretty slow. I average about 2 MBytes per sec. Note that backups of other volumes on te R200 work really well, so there is no problem on the R200 or the network. I saw the comment that turning off minra can have a big impact on backup performance so I thought I would try it. But discovered that the setting would have to be changed on the mirror source which is not so good (maybe). It would be nice if that setting could be changed on the mirror target but not the source, but I can see why that not possible. So, I wondered if I could justify setting minra on on the source volumes but would need some way to predict the impact. It sounds like turing on minra is not usually a good idea, so I guess I am stuck with slow NDMP backups. Just out of interest, does anybody understand why minra has an impact on backup speed. I assume the read ahead does not go past end of file but that is the only explanation I can think of as to why it would have an impact? Regards, pdg -- See mail headers for contact information.

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Re: when to use minra ?
by Peter D. Gray 02 Sep '06

02 Sep '06

Thanks for the replies. Some background on this question. I have 2 filers used for email storage (NFS, attached to 2 mirapoint mail stores). They have lots of small files. I am mirroring these 2 filers to an R200 for backup, but I also take tape copies via NDMP every 30 days or so. The volumes contain about 350GB each of actual data, excluding snapshots, and 5 million files. My NDMP tape backups from the R200 are pretty slow. I average about 2 MBytes per sec. Note that backups of other volumes on te R200 work really well, so there is no problem on the R200 or the network. I saw the comment that turning off minra can have a big impact on backup performance so I thought I would try it. But discovered that the setting would have to be changed on the mirror source which is not so good (maybe). It would be nice if that setting could be changed on the mirror target but not the source, but I can see why that not possible. So, I wondered if I could justify setting minra on on the source volumes but would need some way to predict the impact. It sounds like turing on minra is not usually a good idea, so I guess I am stuck with slow NDMP backups. Just out of interest, does anybody understand why minra has an impact on backup speed. I assume the read ahead does not go past end of file but that is the only explanation I can think of as to why it would have an impact? Regards, pdg -- See mail headers for contact information.

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RE: when to use minra ?
by Fair, Robert 01 Sep '06

01 Sep '06

In 7.0+ setting minra-on has less impact than earlier releases for many workloads, and many folks who used to use it automatically no longer need to. (Its not obsolete, just not useful for most workloads) Its worth trying minra-off to see if the results are acceptable on both source/destination with your specific workload. -- Rob -----Original Message----- From: Carl Howell [mailto:chowell@uwf.edu] Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 12:21 PM To: Blake Golliher Cc: Brian Pascal; toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: RE: when to use minra ? But, isn't the goal to test whether changing the minra setting effects the backup of the volume in question? I'm not suggesting breaking the mirror every time he needs to run a backup. If changing the minra setting is effective, then an RFE is certainly warranted. If not, he has some other problem. Wouldn't you agree? - Carl -----Original Message----- From: Blake Golliher [mailto:thelastman@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 10:57 AM To: Carl Howell Cc: Brian Pascal; toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: Re: when to use minra ? I think the problem there is that you are breaking the snapmirror. I think we want to avoid that. -Blake On 9/1/06, Carl Howell <chowell(a)uwf.edu> wrote: > Vol options cannot change in snapmirror destinations? > > I'm running 7.0.4 on our R200 and I can do this with no problems. > > 1. snapmirror break destvol > 2. vol options destvol minra on > > Am I missing something? > > - Carl > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com [mailto:owner-toasters@mathworks.com] > On Behalf Of Brian Pascal > Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 12:03 AM > To: Peter D. Gray > Cc: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com; toasters(a)mathworks.com > Subject: RE: when to use minra ? > > > > > > Only option is to change the minra on the source since vol options > cannot change in snapmirror destinations. > If you really worried changing minra in a peak time, you can try > changing minra in a non peak time and let the change snapmirror to > destination volume in R200. Then try taking backup's off from that > volume. (just to > isolate) > > Seems like minra is not the only cause for your case. can you provide > more details on your appliances? Model's, disk size's, aggregates & > volume sizes in both source & destination. Also the details of your > tape library attached to R200. ( believe it's directly attached to > R200) > > > > Brian. > > > > > > > "Carl Howell" > > <chowell(a)uwf.edu> To: "Peter D. Gray" > <pdg(a)uow.edu.au>, <toasters(a)mathworks.com> > Sent by: cc: > > owner-toasters@ma Subject: RE: when to use > minra ? > thworks.com > > > > > > 09/01/2006 08:28 > > AM > > > > > > > > > Why not break the mirror change the minra setting and give it a go? You > should know pretty quickly if it makes any difference. Our backup config > is > the same as yours, and we have a couple of volumes with millions of > files that are also slow to backup. > > - Carl > ________________________________ > > From: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com on behalf of Peter D. Gray > Sent: Thu 8/31/2006 6:53 PM > To: toasters(a)mathworks.com > Subject: Re: when to use minra ? > > > > Thanks for the replies. Some background on this question. > > I have 2 filers used for email storage (NFS, attached to 2 mirapoint > mail stores). They have lots of small files. > I am mirroring these 2 filers to an R200 for backup, but I also take > tape copies via NDMP every 30 days or so. The volumes contain about > 350GB each of actual data, excluding snapshots, and 5 million files. > > My NDMP tape backups from the R200 are pretty slow. I average about 2 > MBytes per sec. Note that backups of other volumes on te R200 work > really well, so there is no problem on the R200 or the network. > > I saw the comment that turning off minra can have a big impact on > backup performance so I thought I would try it. > But discovered that the setting would have to be changed on the mirror > source which is not so good (maybe). > > It would be nice if that setting could be changed on the mirror target > but not the source, but I can see why that not possible. > > So, I wondered if I could justify setting minra on on the source > volumes but would need some way to predict the impact. > > It sounds like turing on minra is not usually a good idea, so I guess > I am stuck with slow NDMP backups. > > Just out of interest, does anybody understand why minra has an impact > on backup speed. I assume the read ahead does not go past end of file > but that is the only explanation I can think of as to why it would > have an impact? > > Regards, > pdg > > -- > > See mail headers for contact information. > > > > > This mail has been scanned by InterScan-MSS/kbsl > > > > > This Mail Has Been Scanned For Virus By Scanmail For Lotus Notes > Enterprise/Kbsl > >

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RE: when to use minra ?
by Carl Howell 01 Sep '06

01 Sep '06

But, isn't the goal to test whether changing the minra setting effects the backup of the volume in question? I'm not suggesting breaking the mirror every time he needs to run a backup. If changing the minra setting is effective, then an RFE is certainly warranted. If not, he has some other problem. Wouldn't you agree? - Carl -----Original Message----- From: Blake Golliher [mailto:thelastman@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 10:57 AM To: Carl Howell Cc: Brian Pascal; toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: Re: when to use minra ? I think the problem there is that you are breaking the snapmirror. I think we want to avoid that. -Blake On 9/1/06, Carl Howell <chowell(a)uwf.edu> wrote: > Vol options cannot change in snapmirror destinations? > > I'm running 7.0.4 on our R200 and I can do this with no problems. > > 1. snapmirror break destvol > 2. vol options destvol minra on > > Am I missing something? > > - Carl > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com [mailto:owner-toasters@mathworks.com] > On Behalf Of Brian Pascal > Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 12:03 AM > To: Peter D. Gray > Cc: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com; toasters(a)mathworks.com > Subject: RE: when to use minra ? > > > > > > Only option is to change the minra on the source since vol options > cannot > change in snapmirror destinations. > If you really worried changing minra in a peak time, you can try > changing > minra in a non peak time and let the change snapmirror to destination > volume in R200. Then try taking backup's off from that volume. (just to > isolate) > > Seems like minra is not the only cause for your case. can you provide > more > details on your appliances? Model's, disk size's, aggregates & volume > sizes > in both source & destination. Also the details of your tape library > attached to R200. ( believe it's directly attached to R200) > > > > Brian. > > > > > > > "Carl Howell" > > <chowell(a)uwf.edu> To: "Peter D. Gray" > <pdg(a)uow.edu.au>, <toasters(a)mathworks.com> > Sent by: cc: > > owner-toasters@ma Subject: RE: when to use > minra ? > thworks.com > > > > > > 09/01/2006 08:28 > > AM > > > > > > > > > Why not break the mirror change the minra setting and give it a go? You > should know pretty quickly if it makes any difference. Our backup config > is > the same as yours, and we have a couple of volumes with millions of > files > that are also slow to backup. > > - Carl > ________________________________ > > From: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com on behalf of Peter D. Gray > Sent: Thu 8/31/2006 6:53 PM > To: toasters(a)mathworks.com > Subject: Re: when to use minra ? > > > > Thanks for the replies. Some background on this question. > > I have 2 filers used for email storage (NFS, attached to 2 > mirapoint mail stores). They have lots of small files. > I am mirroring these 2 filers to an R200 for backup, but > I also take tape copies via NDMP every 30 days or so. The volumes > contain about 350GB each of actual data, excluding snapshots, > and 5 million files. > > My NDMP tape backups from the R200 are pretty slow. I average > about 2 MBytes per sec. Note that backups of other volumes > on te R200 work really well, so there is no problem > on the R200 or the network. > > I saw the comment that turning off minra can have a big > impact on backup performance so I thought I would try it. > But discovered that the setting would have to be changed on the > mirror source which is not so good (maybe). > > It would be nice if that setting could be changed on the > mirror target but not the source, but I can see why that not > possible. > > So, I wondered if I could justify setting minra on on the > source volumes but would need some way to predict the impact. > > It sounds like turing on minra is not usually a good idea, so I guess > I am stuck with slow NDMP backups. > > Just out of interest, does anybody understand why minra has an > impact on backup speed. I assume the read ahead does not go > past end of file but that is the only explanation I can > think of as to why it would have an impact? > > Regards, > pdg > > -- > > See mail headers for contact information. > > > > > This mail has been scanned by InterScan-MSS/kbsl > > > > > This Mail Has Been Scanned For Virus By Scanmail For Lotus Notes > Enterprise/Kbsl > >

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RE: when to use minra ?
by Carl Howell 01 Sep '06

01 Sep '06

Vol options cannot change in snapmirror destinations? I'm running 7.0.4 on our R200 and I can do this with no problems. 1. snapmirror break destvol 2. vol options destvol minra on Am I missing something? - Carl -----Original Message----- From: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com [mailto:owner-toasters@mathworks.com] On Behalf Of Brian Pascal Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 12:03 AM To: Peter D. Gray Cc: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com; toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: RE: when to use minra ? Only option is to change the minra on the source since vol options cannot change in snapmirror destinations. If you really worried changing minra in a peak time, you can try changing minra in a non peak time and let the change snapmirror to destination volume in R200. Then try taking backup's off from that volume. (just to isolate) Seems like minra is not the only cause for your case. can you provide more details on your appliances? Model's, disk size's, aggregates & volume sizes in both source & destination. Also the details of your tape library attached to R200. ( believe it's directly attached to R200) Brian. "Carl Howell" <chowell(a)uwf.edu> To: "Peter D. Gray" <pdg(a)uow.edu.au>, <toasters(a)mathworks.com> Sent by: cc: owner-toasters@ma Subject: RE: when to use minra ? thworks.com 09/01/2006 08:28 AM Why not break the mirror change the minra setting and give it a go? You should know pretty quickly if it makes any difference. Our backup config is the same as yours, and we have a couple of volumes with millions of files that are also slow to backup. - Carl ________________________________ From: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com on behalf of Peter D. Gray Sent: Thu 8/31/2006 6:53 PM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: Re: when to use minra ? Thanks for the replies. Some background on this question. I have 2 filers used for email storage (NFS, attached to 2 mirapoint mail stores). They have lots of small files. I am mirroring these 2 filers to an R200 for backup, but I also take tape copies via NDMP every 30 days or so. The volumes contain about 350GB each of actual data, excluding snapshots, and 5 million files. My NDMP tape backups from the R200 are pretty slow. I average about 2 MBytes per sec. Note that backups of other volumes on te R200 work really well, so there is no problem on the R200 or the network. I saw the comment that turning off minra can have a big impact on backup performance so I thought I would try it. But discovered that the setting would have to be changed on the mirror source which is not so good (maybe). It would be nice if that setting could be changed on the mirror target but not the source, but I can see why that not possible. So, I wondered if I could justify setting minra on on the source volumes but would need some way to predict the impact. It sounds like turing on minra is not usually a good idea, so I guess I am stuck with slow NDMP backups. Just out of interest, does anybody understand why minra has an impact on backup speed. I assume the read ahead does not go past end of file but that is the only explanation I can think of as to why it would have an impact? Regards, pdg -- See mail headers for contact information. This mail has been scanned by InterScan-MSS/kbsl This Mail Has Been Scanned For Virus By Scanmail For Lotus Notes Enterprise/Kbsl

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RE: Active Directory security on CIFS volumes
by Glenn Dekhayser 01 Sep '06

01 Sep '06

Check the Qtee security type in Volumes-->Qtrees. Make sure it's set to either Windows or Mixed. Glenn (the other one) ________________________________ From: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com [mailto:owner-toasters@mathworks.com] On Behalf Of Brent Ellis Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 11:00 AM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: Active Directory security on CIFS volumes I recently reinitialized one of our filers and I thought I had everything configured until I started testing CIFS shares. When I create a folder and try to change the permissions, the security tab is not available in windows. The other filer in the cluster allows me to change the permissions on individual folders. I thought I had gone through all the cifs options but I can't seem to change that behavior. Any ideas? Brent Ellis Boston University interi(a)bu.edu

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Active Directory security on CIFS volumes
by Brent Ellis 01 Sep '06

01 Sep '06

I recently reinitialized one of our filers and I thought I had everything configured until I started testing CIFS shares. When I create a folder and try to change the permissions, the security tab is not available in windows. The other filer in the cluster allows me to change the permissions on individual folders. I thought I had gone through all the cifs options but I can't seem to change that behavior. Any ideas? Brent Ellis Boston University interi(a)bu.edu

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RE: when to use minra ?
by Callaway, Michael 01 Sep '06

01 Sep '06

Quote: "My NDMP tape backups from the R200 are pretty slow. I average about 2 MBytes per sec. Note that backups of other volumes on the R200 work really well, so there is no problem on the R200 or the network." Your 2MB/sec sampling, when was that taken? Was it at the beginning, middle, end of the backup? You -should- be getting a really slow through-put rate at the start of a backup, since ndmp basically walks through and takes a look at each file before actually backing them up. When you have a large volume it will take a while to look at each file, it's worse with volumes that have a large number of small files. We had an 8TB 560ish million file vol that would take forever. It seemed to just sit there practically idle, before it would take off and begin backing up. This was too impractical for such a long time for a single backup, so we changed up our future growth area, and now do a snapmirror each qtree to a single volume and then ndmp that out. It still takes time, but it allows us to get a clean backup of separate areas each within their own timeframe. Anyway, my point being, are you seeing slow movement in just the beginning, are you competing backups, and have you captured peak performance? Also, would it be possible to change the way you store your data, or back up in sections? I know it's not fixing the issue, it's just working around it, but it could either help in the meantime while you look at minra, or possibly become a smoother process for you. -- *------------------- Michael Callaway Server Administrator NTTA/IT 214-461-2033 -------------------- -----Original Message----- From: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com [mailto:owner-toasters@mathworks.com] On Behalf Of Peter D. Gray Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 6:53 PM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: Re: when to use minra ? Thanks for the replies. Some background on this question. I have 2 filers used for email storage (NFS, attached to 2 mirapoint mail stores). They have lots of small files. I am mirroring these 2 filers to an R200 for backup, but I also take tape copies via NDMP every 30 days or so. The volumes contain about 350GB each of actual data, excluding snapshots, and 5 million files. My NDMP tape backups from the R200 are pretty slow. I average about 2 MBytes per sec. Note that backups of other volumes on te R200 work really well, so there is no problem on the R200 or the network. I saw the comment that turning off minra can have a big impact on backup performance so I thought I would try it. But discovered that the setting would have to be changed on the mirror source which is not so good (maybe). It would be nice if that setting could be changed on the mirror target but not the source, but I can see why that not possible. So, I wondered if I could justify setting minra on on the source volumes but would need some way to predict the impact. It sounds like turing on minra is not usually a good idea, so I guess I am stuck with slow NDMP backups. Just out of interest, does anybody understand why minra has an impact on backup speed. I assume the read ahead does not go past end of file but that is the only explanation I can think of as to why it would have an impact? Regards, pdg -- See mail headers for contact information.

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