toasters April 2001

toasters@lists.teaparty.net

205 participants
286 discussions

RE: "Case survey" stuff from NetApp
by Mike Sphar 25 Apr '01

25 Apr '01

It depends on how you open the browser. If it's just a pre-defined URL that takes you right to the survey form where you just type your answers and submit it, that would likely be faster for me. But it depends on your email client and your work habits, how long your machine takes to bring up a browser, etc. Ideally, if it were up to me, both options would work. There would be a URL at the top of the message and also the ability to reply with your answers. -- Mike Sphar - Sr Systems Administrator - Engineering Support Services - Remedy Corporation BOFH, GWP, MCP, MCP+I, MCSE, BFD -----Original Message----- From: Mohler, Jeff [mailto:jeff.mohler@netapp.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 3:44 PM To: Sullivan, Justin; 'Chris Thompson'; toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: RE: "Case survey" stuff from NetApp I would think that it would take more of my time, to load up the WWW browser to work it there, than to insert five numbers between the ()'s. -----Original Message----- From: Sullivan, Justin [mailto:Justin.Sullivan@netapp.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 1:22 PM To: 'Chris Thompson'; toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: RE: "Case survey" stuff from NetApp Capital idea.. We would certainly like to have more surveys returned - we should like to see EVERY survey returned. You have an excellent point - why not have a web-based survey form? Easy, friendly, quick.. Back in the days when I was a NetApp customer, I admit, I threw them away too - too much trouble to fill out the e-mail form; who has that kind of time anymore? I have passed your idea along to the folks in Customer Satisfaction who can make this happen. Cheers! --- Justin Sullivan Network Appliance, Technical Support Engineer Network Appliance Certified Associate justins(a)netapp.com Get answers NOW! - NetApp On the Web - http://now.netapp.com Tech Support Hotline: 1-888-4NETAPP -----Original Message----- From: Chris Thompson [mailto:cet1@cus.cam.ac.uk] Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 3:04 PM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: "Case survey" stuff from NetApp What do you do with the the e-mail that arrives from Quality.Manager(a)netapp.com after a problem is closed with NetApp, inviting you to fill in a "5 STARS Survey" form? I admit I throw them in the e-wastebin. It seems to me that providing only a method of returning these (probably only marginally meaningful) answers by e-mail is absolutely pessimal. If they really want to increase the response rate, surely NetApp should provide a method using forms at now.netapp.com? My vague recollection is that at one time a WWW-browser-based method was offered, but this doesn't seem to be the case now. Chris Thompson University of Cambridge Computing Service, Email: cet1(a)ucs.cam.ac.uk New Museums Site, Cambridge CB2 3QG, Phone: +44 1223 334715 United Kingdom.

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Seeking ONTAP version information
by John Jetmore 25 Apr '01

25 Apr '01

My company is potentially needing to upgrade the OS on one of our Filers (760). I believe that 6.0.1R3 is the latest in the 6.* family. Is it fairly stable? We are running 5.3.6R1 right now. Does anyone see any potential problems with that upgrade path? Any information or shared experiences would be appreciated. Thanks, --John Jetmore

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Re: snapshot backup
by Rick Hulsey 25 Apr '01

25 Apr '01

It is different in that the snapshots represent read only copies of the files in the filesystem. When you use NFS to mount the snapshot and copy the files to tape, Legato will still look at the time stamps on the files and backup the files that have changed since the time stamp in the Legato client file index. This means that Legato will backup files that have changed since the last backup if you specify an incremental backup. However, that is different than the block level changes that are always ongoing in the WAFL filesystem, and it is that characteristic that enable snapshots to work. All of the stuff related to WAFL (internal filesystem stuff) is, and has to be transparent to the backup software and even the operating system. Based on all of that stuff it looks to me like Legato can not do what you are looking for. >>> "E.J. Jantz" <ej_jantz(a)bswintl.com> 04/25/01 08:55AM >>> just a question: If the 'snapshots are "copy on writes' doesn't that mean that a backup of .snapshot is equal to and functions as a full backup? If not, can Legato using a NFS mount on a unix server capture just the info the .snapshot uses? If so, how? thanks... EJ Jantz, IST Dept. BSW International One West Third, Ste 100 Tulsa, OK 74103-3505 918 582-8771 ej_jantz(a)bswintl.com 918 295-4166 918 587-3594 fax >>> "Clawson, Simon" <simon_clawson(a)mentorg.com> 4/25/01 4:32:08 AM >>> Is it possible to backup just the .snapshot and then perform a restore from this data? I am looking for ways to speed up the backups and this seems to be a possible option. It was suggested to me by a colleague as a method of backing up Clearcase VOBS, but would it be viable for the whole filer. Of course I would need to run a full backup at tleast once a month, but this would help me speed up most of my weekly runs. Any ideas/suggestions/views? Simon Simon Clawson HDS Team Systems Administrator Mentor Graphics Uk Rivergate London Road Newbury Berkshire RG14 2QB <<Clawson, Simon.vcf>>

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Adding a 36gb shelf to F740 with 18gb shelves
by Jeff Bryer 25 Apr '01

25 Apr '01

We have an F740 with 3 shelves of 18GB disks. It's config'd as two volumes (two raid sets). We've almost outgrown the capacity (we're down to one hot spare and a free disk). We want to add a new disk shelf to the system, but we're wondering if we're going to lose anything by going to a shelf of 36gb disks. We don't have any intention of adding new volumes (or new raid sets), just growing the existing volumes. Can we add a shelf of 36gb disks and then switch our 2 existing 18gb parity disks over to 36gb disks? We'd keep a 36gb disk as a hot spare and use all of the 18gb disks in the volumes (including the 2 freed up parity disks and the freed up hot spare). Are we going to run into problems with this? Or do we need to keep an 18gb disk around as a hot spare as well (ie when an 18gb disks dies and uses a 36gb disks as a hot spare, can we force it to go back to the 18gb disk once the faulty 18gb disk has been replaced?). Are the 36gb disks going to be used at full capacity in this situation (when mixed with the 18gb)? Or is there a better way to do this? Thanks, -- Jeff Bryer bryer(a)sfu.ca Systems Administrator (604) 291-4935 Academic Computing, Simon Fraser University

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RE: snapshot backup
by Melvin, Grant 25 Apr '01

25 Apr '01

Hi Igor, > There's one potential problem - if your backup does not finish in time > between 2 snapshots, they will rotate (say, hourly.0 will become > hourly.1, and the new hourly.0 has started) , so in the end you're > backing up not what you started backing up. For scheduled backups one > should be cautious to, for example, do a full backup from weekly.0 and > incremental one from nightly.0, but if you're doing a on-the-fly > dump, always keep your snapshot schedule in mind. The snapshots used to rotate and dump would then crash the filer, since all its knowledge about a static filesystem just changed! So now we lock the snapshot that dump is backing up and the rotation of snapshots would fail which is also not good, but preserves data availability. You can create (or rename) snapshots with your own names, such as vob_snap, but once you do this you (the user) are managing the snapshot, i.e. dump creates & deletes its snapshots, snapmirror creates & deletes its snapshots, snap sched creates & ... well you get the picture. Cheers, Grant

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Re: snapshot backup
by jharrington＠millermartin.com 25 Apr '01

25 Apr '01

We are using Backup Exec and to get around the time constraints of the snapshots came up with the following option. Backup exec will execute a command before the backup to create a new snapshot called backup-snap "rsh filer1 snap create vol1 backup-snap" Once that is done it will run the job we created to backup the newly created backup-snap snapshot and once it has finished it will delete the snapshot "rsh filer1 snap delete vol1 backup-snap" Igor Schein <igor(a)txc.com> on 04/25/2001 05:06:20 PM Please respond to igor(a)txc.com To: "Traitel, Eyal" <eyal(a)netapp.com> cc: "'E.J. Jantz'" <ej_jantz(a)bswintl.com>, toasters(a)mathworks.com, simon_clawson(a)mentorg.com (bcc: Joe Harrington/M&M) Subject: Re: snapshot backup On Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 08:28:39AM -0700, Traitel, Eyal wrote: > Our snapshots are to be more exact "copy on new write" as opposed to "copy on old write", with the advantage of no penalty at all in terms of performance of taking the snapshot, and performance of filesystem after taking it (think of "copy on old write" - filesystem needs to read old block, write it in the backup location, then write the new block in old place - that's 3 I/Os. For us it's only 1). > We do not have to go back to specific locations on the disk, and that's a real advantage in terms of performance. > > In regards to full compared to snapshot - with NetApp, it's probably always better to backup snapshots, as they are point-in-time - when you've started your backup at 19:00, all of it will be consistent to 19:00 sharp, unlike traditional backup, which data changes while you backup... So - if you get me right - you can even do full backup from a snapshot... There's one potential problem - if your backup does not finish in time between 2 snapshots, they will rotate (say, hourly.0 will become hourly.1, and the new hourly.0 has started) , so in the end you're backing up not what you started backing up. For scheduled backups one should be cautious to, for example, do a full backup from weekly.0 and incremental one from nightly.0, but if you're doing a on-the-fly dump, always keep your snapshot schedule in mind. Igor

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RE: fibre channel hubs
by Aiello, Tony 25 Apr '01

25 Apr '01

Neil, Hubs will create a problem for you in this application. I imagine you'd configure the unmanaged hub with two or more filers and the library all attached to a port on the hub. When things init, the filers will become aware of each other because they will be present in the map of devices on the Fibre Channel loop. They will then proceed to attempt to login with each other. As their both initiators, this won't go well. The other problem will be that resets propagate. Action by one filer could easily reset your tape drive causing the backup or restore to abort. It was for exactly these reasons we went with the managed hub solution. By partitioning or zoning properly each filer sees only the tape drives and propagation of resets or loop initializations is filtered. You might be interested in checking NOW for information on our real fabric implementation. It has some very nice features. You can connect many filers into a Brocade switch and share multiple tape drives. We've also added a feature called tape aliasing. Tape aliasing works in conjunction with these shared resource to insure that there's a consistent mapping of tape devices to logical tape names. It insures that from filer to filer if you want to use rst0a it will always be a tape drive at either a certain switch,port,id location or will always find a device with a particular world-wide name regardless of where its attached. You can choose. Check it out on NOW at: http://now.netapp.com/NOW/knowledge/docs/olio/SAN_GOLD/FC2/index.shtml Tony ------------------------------------------- Tony Aiello, Mgr. Storage SW mailto:taiello@netapp.com Ph:(408)822-6515 > -----Original Message----- > From: neil lehrer [mailto:nlehrer@ibb.gov] > Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 12:46 PM > To: toasters > Subject: fibre channel hubs > > > has netapp qualified any of the vixel hubs for tape backup? > the hubs are much > cheaper than the vixel 8100 and i don't think the lesser > performance will be an > issue in my case - two filers. > > thanks >

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RE: snapshot backup
by Traitel, Eyal 25 Apr '01

25 Apr '01

Our snapshots are to be more exact "copy on new write" as opposed to "copy on old write", with the advantage of no penalty at all in terms of performance of taking the snapshot, and performance of filesystem after taking it (think of "copy on old write" - filesystem needs to read old block, write it in the backup location, then write the new block in old place - that's 3 I/Os. For us it's only 1). We do not have to go back to specific locations on the disk, and that's a real advantage in terms of performance. In regards to full compared to snapshot - with NetApp, it's probably always better to backup snapshots, as they are point-in-time - when you've started your backup at 19:00, all of it will be consistent to 19:00 sharp, unlike traditional backup, which data changes while you backup... So - if you get me right - you can even do full backup from a snapshot... On Legato - I think you can just mention .snapshot/hourly.0 for example in your path of backup. If you use NDMP, you anyway backup a snapshot, as the filer's dump creates one automatically for you. Hope it somewhat helps, Eyal. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- eTraitel - I'm the new eBuzzword around !!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Eyal Traitel - Filer Escalation Engineer CNA, MCSE, CSA, LCA, NetApp CA Network Appliance BV Holland Office Center Kruisweg 799b 2132 NG, Hoofddorp The Netherlands Office: +31 23 567 9685 Cellular: +31 6 5497 2568 Email: eyal(a)netapp.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Get answers NOW! - NetApp On the Web - http://now.netapp.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: E.J. Jantz [mailto:ej_jantz@bswintl.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 3:55 PM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com; simon_clawson(a)mentorg.com Subject: Re: snapshot backup just a question: If the 'snapshots are "copy on writes' doesn't that mean that a backup of .snapshot is equal to and functions as a full backup? If not, can Legato using a NFS mount on a unix server capture just the info the .snapshot uses? If so, how? thanks... EJ Jantz, IST Dept. BSW International One West Third, Ste 100 Tulsa, OK 74103-3505 918 582-8771 ej_jantz(a)bswintl.com 918 295-4166 918 587-3594 fax >>> "Clawson, Simon" <simon_clawson(a)mentorg.com> 4/25/01 4:32:08 AM >>> Is it possible to backup just the .snapshot and then perform a restore from this data? I am looking for ways to speed up the backups and this seems to be a possible option. It was suggested to me by a colleague as a method of backing up Clearcase VOBS, but would it be viable for the whole filer. Of course I would need to run a full backup at tleast once a month, but this would help me speed up most of my weekly runs. Any ideas/suggestions/views? Simon Simon Clawson HDS Team Systems Administrator Mentor Graphics Uk Rivergate London Road Newbury Berkshire RG14 2QB <<Clawson, Simon.vcf>>

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RE: snapshot backup
by Melvin, Grant 25 Apr '01

25 Apr '01

Hi Simon, > Is it possible to backup just the .snapshot and then perform a restore > from this data? Yes, when restore looks at the backup tape it doesn't see the .snapshot/weekly.0 preamble so the backup to NetApp looks the same as if you hadn't specified a snapshot. As Steve pointed out some of the NDMP backup applications remember this preamble and need to be redirected on restores. > I am looking for ways to speed up the backups and this seems to be a > possible option. As our capacities grew snapshot create & delete times started to increase (pre 6.0 releases). With Data Ontap 6.0 we re-engineered our snapshot implementation and re-introduced "instantaneous" snapshot creation. Dump either via rsh, console or NDMP only ever backups from a snapshot either a named snapshot or one it creates (& manages) itself. If you are running a pre-6.0 release then I can believe you might see less impact on backups by using a named snapshot either from the snap sched set (we don't normally recommend you use these snapshots for dump because they get updated on the snap sched schedule and dump locks the snapshot its working on, e.g. the two schedules can conflict meaning you miss a valuable snap sched update) or created by the user using rsh snap create. In the past we've seen customers create a snpshot rather than let dump create it since they are going to perform multiple qtree or sub directory backups and just want one snapshot to be created. In Data Ontap 6.0 or beyond, there should be no noticable difference using dump on a named snapshot or when it needs to create its own snapshot. /etc/dumpdates is a database that dump uses to remember the time the last backup was done on the path used, so on an incremental dump we simply create a new snapshot, pick up the time of the last dump and then read out all files & directories in the new snapshot that have been modified since that timestamp. But maybe the time you are saving is actually on quiescing Clearcase and the VOB data and not on the snapshot creation. I wasn't clear. Cheers, Grant =========== grant(a)netapp.com ========== Grant Melvin === === Software Development Manager === === Data Availability & Management === |\ | __ ___ /\ __ __ === Network Appliance === | \ | |__ | /__\ |__| |__| === 475 East Java Drive === | \| |__ | / \ | | (R) === Sunnyvale === === California, 94089 === === Tel:(408)822-6761 =========== Network Appliance ========== Fax:(408)822-4578 -----Original Message----- From: Clawson, Simon [mailto:simon_clawson@mentorg.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 8:39 AM To: 'Traitel, Eyal'; 'E.J. Jantz'; toasters(a)mathworks.com; Clawson, Simon Subject: RE: snapshot backup That sounds like exactly what I meant. We currently backup / and everything below that. What I was hoping I could do was backup /.snapshot/weekly0 and then use this as my full backup. I user Veritas NetBackup to fire off the NDMP job on the filer, so I guess I would need to modify the backup path to /.snapshot/Weekly0? Simon > -----Original Message----- > From: Traitel, Eyal [mailto:eyal@netapp.com] > Sent: Wednesday April 2001 16:29 > To: 'E.J. Jantz'; toasters(a)mathworks.com; simon_clawson > Subject: RE: snapshot backup > > > Our snapshots are to be more exact "copy on new write" as > opposed to "copy on old write", with the advantage of no > penalty at all in terms of performance of taking the > snapshot, and performance of filesystem after taking it > (think of "copy on old write" - filesystem needs to read old > block, write it in the backup location, then write the new > block in old place - that's 3 I/Os. For us it's only 1). > We do not have to go back to specific locations on the disk, > and that's a real advantage in terms of performance. > > In regards to full compared to snapshot - with NetApp, it's > probably always better to backup snapshots, as they are > point-in-time - when you've started your backup at 19:00, all > of it will be consistent to 19:00 sharp, unlike traditional > backup, which data changes while you backup... So - if you > get me right - you can even do full backup from a snapshot... > > On Legato - I think you can just mention .snapshot/hourly.0 > for example in your path of backup. If you use NDMP, you > anyway backup a snapshot, as the filer's dump creates one > automatically for you. > > Hope it somewhat helps, > Eyal. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > eTraitel - I'm the new eBuzzword around !!! > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Eyal Traitel - Filer Escalation Engineer > CNA, MCSE, CSA, LCA, NetApp CA > > Network Appliance BV > Holland Office Center > Kruisweg 799b > 2132 NG, Hoofddorp > The Netherlands > Office: +31 23 567 9685 > Cellular: +31 6 5497 2568 > Email: eyal(a)netapp.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Get answers NOW! - NetApp On the Web - http://now.netapp.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > -----Original Message----- > From: E.J. Jantz [mailto:ej_jantz@bswintl.com] > Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 3:55 PM > To: toasters(a)mathworks.com; simon_clawson(a)mentorg.com > Subject: Re: snapshot backup > > > just a question: If the 'snapshots are "copy on writes' doesn't that > mean that a backup of .snapshot is equal to and functions as a full > backup? If not, can Legato using a NFS mount on a unix server capture > just the info the .snapshot uses? If so, how? > > thanks... > > EJ Jantz, IST Dept. > BSW International > One West Third, Ste 100 > Tulsa, OK 74103-3505 > 918 582-8771 > ej_jantz(a)bswintl.com > 918 295-4166 > 918 587-3594 fax > > > >>> "Clawson, Simon" <simon_clawson(a)mentorg.com> 4/25/01 4:32:08 AM > >>> > Is it possible to backup just the .snapshot and then perform a restore > from > this data? > > I am looking for ways to speed up the backups and this seems to be a > possible option. It was suggested to me by a colleague as a method of > backing up Clearcase VOBS, but would it be viable for the whole filer. > Of > course I would need to run a full backup at tleast once a month, but > this > would help me speed up most of my weekly runs. > > Any ideas/suggestions/views? > > Simon > > Simon Clawson > HDS Team Systems Administrator > Mentor Graphics Uk > Rivergate > London Road > Newbury > Berkshire > RG14 2QB > <<Clawson, Simon.vcf>> >

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fibre channel hubs
by neil lehrer 25 Apr '01

25 Apr '01

has netapp qualified any of the vixel hubs for tape backup? the hubs are much cheaper than the vixel 8100 and i don't think the lesser performance will be an issue in my case - two filers. thanks

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toasters April 2001