toasters July 2000

toasters@lists.teaparty.net

111 participants
130 discussions

RE: Re-skinning the cat, might go with the F720 wo/CIFS ... -- WA S: Linux versus NetApp
by Darleen.Cormier＠netapp.com 21 Jul '00

21 Jul '00

Bryan, You have several options, and some cost more money than others. There are several software packages that are certified with NetApps and your library. Legato, Veritas, Workstation Solutions and SyncSort are some of the options. These all have different configurations that they support, (you can find the configuration info on the various web sites) depending on where you want to put the library. All of them support backing up the filer with the library attached locally, but if you want to attach the library to a Solaris server, Workstation Solutions will support that, and is also the least expensive of the solutions listed above. Check out their website at www.worksta.com However the cheapest solution is to attach the library to the back of the filer, and use the dump and restore utility. Several things to check out are, the library needs to be HVD not single-ended. It needs to be set in sequential or stacker mode, and you need to emulate an Exabyte 8900, since the filer will not support Mammoth until the next release of software. -----Original Message----- From: Bryan -TheBS- Smith [mailto:thebs@theseus.com] Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2000 2:33 PM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Cc: thebs(a)theseus.com; b.j.smith(a)ieee.org Subject: Re-skinning the cat, might go with the F720 wo/CIFS ... -- WAS: Linux versus NetApp Re-skinning the cat, might go with the F720 wo/CIFS ... -- WAS: Linux versus NetApp All -- My boss and I took a step back and looked at the problem again. We remembered that 90% of our traffic is NFS. As such, paying an additional $8K for the CIFS support is probably not needed on the NetApp ($27K for the F720, 7x36GB, 1000Base-SX upgrade). I've had no problems with Samba on the Linux side and it's not our primary focus (we don't have a PDC BTW). I guess the only thing now is to figure out how to backup. I have an Exabyte EZ17 (7-bay autoloader, can and does emulate an EXB-210B) with a 20/40GB Mammoth[-1] drive. I don't (and never did) think much of the Mammoth, but the new 60/150GB Mammoth-2s are actually getting good reviews, only cost $3K and will allow me to re-use my autoloader. Again, anyone got any experiences with any backup software either on the NetApp or a NetApp agent to a backup server (like Solaris or Linux) that supports my autoloader? Dump might do though. Thanx ... -- TheBS -- Bryan "TheBS" Smith CONTACT INFO *********************************************************** Chat: thebs413 @ AOL/MSN/Yahoo (see http://Everybuddy.com) Email: mailto:thebs@theseus.com,b.j.smith@ieee.org Legal: http://www.SmithConcepts.com/legal.html

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Re: Linux-NFS list recommended I post here -- RE: NetApp versus Linux
by Eyal Traitel 21 Jul '00

21 Jul '00

A simple workgroup (non-domain mode) case is easy to use - your PCs just authenticate using /etc/passwd or NIS, and you just need to change the Registry of your PCs to re-enable clear-text password. eT. --- Bruce Sterling Woodcock <sirbruce(a)ix.netcom.com> wrote: > From: "Bryan J. Smith" <b.j.smith(a)ieee.org> > > > I'm talking about the RAID volume, not the Linux filesystem. Many > > RAID controllers actually cannot resize their own volumes. Or were > > you talking about the NetApp? > > I was talking about Netapp. It's no big deal, just something to be > aware > of; > if you start to run low on inodes you can just make more. > > > TheBS> So I can assign multiple users/groups to a file in > > TheBS> NetApp's CIFS support? > > > Yes. > > TheBS> Does it support all NT permissions? > > > Yes. > > > > Cool! I take it I have to have a full PDC to do that, eh? > > Right. Well, at least to do some of it. I'm not sure how the filer > handles a simple Workgroup case. > > Bruce > > ===== Yours, Eyal Traitel eTraitel(a)yahoo.com, Home: 972-3-5290415 (Tel Aviv) *** eTraitel - it's the new eBuzzword ! *** __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail � Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/

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Re: Linux-NFS list recommended I post here -- RE: NetApp versus Linux
by Eyal Traitel 21 Jul '00

21 Jul '00

Hi Bryan ! Please take into account these issues, which favor the appliance solution over the Linux box: 1. Proven stability of filesystem - NetApp's WAFL has real-life proven stability, which is consistent thru shutdown and powerdowns - even though ext3 is using journaling, WAFL's Consistency Points using the NVRAM should cover stability much better (and faster). 2. Crash recovery - filer's fsck (wack) is much much faster than other vendors' solutions - ~600GB/hr and more. 3. Ease of use - adding capacity is that easy - no extra config. Also - you're wasting time on choosing the right CPU arch. and motherboard bus chipsets - leave that to NetApp's engineering experts, and you can save time (and money, and get anyway better performance). 4. Extra NetApp-specific "bonus-features" - snapshot can lower your restore needs dramatically, and can help for some recovery cases. 5. Enterprise-level features which you can leverage in the future (which Linux doesn't have YET, not that I've seen, others - correct me if I'm wrong) - SnapMirror/SnapRestore, which complement the disaster-recovery issues. 6. Future growth - one filer can grow (now) to 1.4TB, which I don't think many Linux storage solution go that high, and NetApp will upgrade to 3TB and higher for one filer very soon. 7. Performance - CIFS performance should be much higher, NFS also much higher. 8. NFS/CIFS securuty - Linux can only share to PCs with Samba, which is fine, but only a user-level application (slower that Data ONTAP's kernel level implementation), and also the filesystem on Linux will still be Unix-based, and will not be able to maintain NT ACLs etc. I hope it sums it up somehow, Eyal. --- Bryan -TheBS- Smith <thebs(a)theseus.com> wrote: > Linux-NFS list recommended I post here -- RE: NetApp versus Linux > > All -- > > The Linux-NFS list recommended I post here. I am looking at either > a $35K NetApp F720 or a $18K Linux (w/Ext3+NFS3 patches) solution. > I'd greatly appreciate any input anyone has. > > My boss favors the NetApp solution on paper (never used one > himself, nor does he do any admin-level stuff). But IMHO, unless > we spend $70K to buy two (2) NetApp F720s and take advantage of the > NetApp's superior failover/load-balancing capability, I'm not sure > it's the right move. We still have to have a Linux server around > for CVS (and NIS?) anyway, which would put a NetApp at the mercy of > the Linux box anyway (any way to get CVS on NetApp?). > > I break down my limited knowledge below. I currently have a 100GB > Linux 2.2 server (Ext2+NFS2) that I didn't setup (but have heavily > reconfigured because the consulting firm didn't know jack crap, but > some things like using 1KB block sizes in the /home filesystem that > take forever to fsck is something I can't change right now). > > We're looking at going to 250GB (possibly 500-1000GB in the next 6 > months). Most of our clients are Solaris 2.6 (about a dozen > serious production boxes with dual to 6-way processor, 1 to 6GB of > RAM, etc...). We are starting to add more and Linux workstations > (both dedicated and dual-booting with NT). > > Stability: > ---------- > > +++ NetApp (F720) > Boots in under 2 minutes due to the use of NVRAM even after an > improper shutdown. Buying two (2) units is an extremely viable > failover/load-balancing solution. [ Unfortunately, my boss doesn't > want to spend more than $30K). > > --- Linux (Ext2) > Although our Linux systems have averaged >100 days uptime, a > routine power outtage without proper shutdown, unable to umount NFS > clients, etc... causes an fsck. We figure 30 minutes per 100GB for > Ext2 fscks on 8-16KB blocks (currently takes 90 minutes of 1KB > blocks, something the consultants before me did -- dumb!). Never > had a problem with lost data though. > > --- Linux (ReiserFS) > Meta-data journaling, but has NFS locking issues (except for a > SuSE patch to the old knfsd?). Eliminated from consideration > > ??? Linux (Ext3) > Full data journaling means sync I/O??? What about current > stability (I'm using Trond+Higgen 0.21.3 on non-production systems > with Solaris 2.6 clients and I'm happy)? Locking with Ext3 (never > used Ext3, but many others are now)? I know VA Linux now has Linux > 2.2 kernels with Ext3 and NFS3 that are supposively quite stable. > > Performance: > ------------ > > ??? NetApp (F720 + 1000Base-SX NIC) > While the NVRAM in the NetApp allows almost instant sync > acknoledgement to clients, the F720 only comes with 1/4th the NVRAM > of the F740/760 (8MB versus 32MB). The result is that the F720 can > only handle 1/3-1/4th the NFS requests and throughput of the > F740/760. I have seen good marks on the later, but cannot find > much on the former which makes me wonder if we will run into a > performance issue? Transmeta also mentioned that they have had > performance issues with the 700-series on high-loads because the > on-baord CPU, a single Alpha (usually ~600MHz) cannot even keep up > with the number of XORs for just the RAID-4 volume. Of course I > only have a dozen NFS clients and Transmeta has many more. Hard > drives are of older, 36GB, 7200rpm, Ultra2 (aka Ultra80) SCSI type. > > +++ Linux (dual-cpu/memory ServerSet IIIHE chipset + dual-733MHz > Pentium III + 233MHz StrongARM-powered, 4-channel, Ultra160 RAID > controller on its own PCI 64-bit channel + 1000Base-SX NIC card on > it's own 66MHz PCI 64-bit channel) > These ServerSet III-powered mainboards seem to best both the > older 4-way i450HX EDO mainboards, and the 2-way i840 in just about > every memory benchmark. Going to use 2GB of RAM (which is 8x as > much as in the F720), and can expand to 8GB later. The > 3-independent PCI channels (of which, 2 are 66MHz PCI 64-bit) > allows me to put the disk controller and network controller on > their own, 64-bit channels. They Mylex 233MHz StrongARM-powered > RAID controllers are the fastest you can get for just about > anything (including Linux, especially when compared to vendors who > still use a 100MHz i960 ASIC) and I'm going to pair it with 73GB, > 10000rpm, Ultra160 disks with two disks per channel spread over all > 4 channels. > On the software side, I've had no issues running async with > Linux. I'm more worried about Ext3's full-data journaling being > the slouch here. Also wondering how long it takes, exactly, to > recover after an improper shutdown with full-data journaling Ext3 > (I'm assuming <5 minutes for 250GB?). > > [ Further insight wanted: Just wondering if the F720 will be a > slouch compared to this? Or will the NVRAM really kick Ext3's > butt, even if there is only 8MB of it? ] > > Other Considerations: > --------------------- > > NetApp (Failover Option) > Features "ready-to-go" fail-over option via proprietary gigabit > links between units. Another unit can even use the disk controller > and disks on a failed unit CPU unit. Very nice. Also lowers the > admin requirements (like having to keep kernel/apps up-to-date, > etc...). Someone on the Linux-NFS list actually mentioned > administration wasn't so easy with NetApp (no web-based admin???) > and would rather have Linux (I personally couldn't believe this, > but she was a seasoned Linux admin like myself). > > Linux (Software Support) > I still need a Linux box to server as the CVS server, Mail > server (including various Sendmail/Mail-based programs like AV > scanner, HP OpenMail, Majordomo, GNATS, etc...), NIS server (or > does NetApp have NIS server capabilities?), etc... This makes me > wonder if I really will "save on TOC" with the NetApp since my > Linux admin outside of this has only been about 40-80 hours over > the past year (compiling new kernels, installing new NFS, etc...). > > Cost: > ----- > > --- NetApp F720 (7 x 36GB disk = 252GB, 216GB usable RAID-4, 180GB > if using hot spare) > $35K for the configuration (F720 = 600MHz? Alpha, 256MB RAM, > 8MB NVRAM) with both SMB and NFS plus the 1000Base-SX upgrade. > > +++ Linux (5 x 73GB disk = 365GB, 292GB usable RAID-5, 219GB if > using hot spare) > $18K for the configuration as above (dual-733MHz, 2GB RAM, RAID > controller, 1000Base-SX NIC, etc...) with SAF-TE rackmount disk > chassis, ATX rackmount chassis, cabling and redundant power on both > the SAF-TE and ATX case. > > Thanx in advance ... > > -- Bryan "TheBS" Smith > "Lead Computer Geek" > Theseus Logic, Inc. > > -- > Bryan "TheBS" Smith CONTACT INFO > *********************************************************** > Chat: thebs413 @ AOL/MSN/Yahoo (see http://Everybuddy.com) > Email: mailto:thebs@theseus.com,b.j.smith@ieee.org > Home: http://www.SmithConcepts.com > ===== Yours, Eyal Traitel eTraitel(a)yahoo.com, Home: 972-3-5290415 (Tel Aviv) *** eTraitel - it's the new eBuzzword ! *** __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail � Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/

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Re-skinning the cat, might go with the F720 wo/CIFS ... -- WAS: Linux versus NetApp
by Bryan -TheBS- Smith 20 Jul '00

20 Jul '00

Re-skinning the cat, might go with the F720 wo/CIFS ... -- WAS: Linux versus NetApp All -- My boss and I took a step back and looked at the problem again. We remembered that 90% of our traffic is NFS. As such, paying an additional $8K for the CIFS support is probably not needed on the NetApp ($27K for the F720, 7x36GB, 1000Base-SX upgrade). I've had no problems with Samba on the Linux side and it's not our primary focus (we don't have a PDC BTW). I guess the only thing now is to figure out how to backup. I have an Exabyte EZ17 (7-bay autoloader, can and does emulate an EXB-210B) with a 20/40GB Mammoth[-1] drive. I don't (and never did) think much of the Mammoth, but the new 60/150GB Mammoth-2s are actually getting good reviews, only cost $3K and will allow me to re-use my autoloader. Again, anyone got any experiences with any backup software either on the NetApp or a NetApp agent to a backup server (like Solaris or Linux) that supports my autoloader? Dump might do though. Thanx ... -- TheBS -- Bryan "TheBS" Smith CONTACT INFO *********************************************************** Chat: thebs413 @ AOL/MSN/Yahoo (see http://Everybuddy.com) Email: mailto:thebs@theseus.com,b.j.smith@ieee.org Legal: http://www.SmithConcepts.com/legal.html

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some basic questions.
by Abu Ihsan 20 Jul '00

20 Jul '00

Hi, forgive me if these questions are too basic, but I need to clarify them first before start using our F760 Ontap 5.3.5R2. I'm in the learning process and I just could'nt find any faq on the net. true or false ? we cannot reduce size of a volume or reduce number of disk once allocated to a volume. we connot take a volume offline (from online state) without rebooting. we cannot create a volume in that it will become offline when created. we have to destroy entire volume to delete qtree. we cannot set maxfiles value for qtree. We have to set by volume. (I'm worrying about the news spool where we used to have a 512 bytes/inode on our UFS. How does everyone set their news spool, create a qtree for news spool or a separate volume ?) I don't understand below statement in System Administration Guide pg 72-73 : what does it mean by "The maximum RAID group size is 52 disks." when "The largest RAID group size you can create manually is 28 disks." thanks, --ihsanna __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail � Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/

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RE: NOW website down?
by Renee.LaLonde＠netapp.com 19 Jul '00

19 Jul '00

Hi Everyone, The planned downtime window for "routine upgrades/maintenance" to NOW is actually scheduled only during late hours (US PDT) on Saturdays. We picked Saturday nights based upon the small amount of web traffic that occurs during this period so that we can minimize the impacts to our customers. The outage that we experienced yesterday was due to internal networking issues and was not a "planned" outage. However, our standard "planned downtime" message below was displayed. We will look at making this message more representative of the issue at hand. Thanks for your feedback. If you have any questions/further input please feel free to send me an email directly. Best Regards, Renee La Londe renee(a)netapp.com E-Service Web Manager Get Answers on NOW (Netapp on the Web)! http://now.netapp.com -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Innis [mailto:figaro911@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2000 4:51 PM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: NOW website down? Seems the NOW website is down for "routine" maintenance. Seems strange to be having routine maintenance during what is still business hours here on the West Coast. Ok, not trying to be US centric but I'am sure that most of Netapps sales are from US based businesses, so it would seem to be sensible to do this during "off" hours, 2:00am EDT sounds good. Comments from Netapp folks? J The NOW website will be inaccessible due to routine maintenance. We apologize for the inconvenience. To download software, please go to download.netapp.com. The Global Support Center can be reached during this time (and at all times) by the phone numbers below: 1-888-4NETAPP (toll free within U.S.) 1-408-822-4700 (direct dial from elsewhere) 00 800 44 NETAPP (for countries with UIFN; toll-free) +31 23 5679605 (for all other countries; int'l call r ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

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NOW website down?
by Jeff Innis 19 Jul '00

19 Jul '00

Seems the NOW website is down for "routine" maintenance. Seems strange to be having routine maintenance during what is still business hours here on the West Coast. Ok, not trying to be US centric but I'am sure that most of Netapps sales are from US based businesses, so it would seem to be sensible to do this during "off" hours, 2:00am EDT sounds good. Comments from Netapp folks? J The NOW website will be inaccessible due to routine maintenance. We apologize for the inconvenience. To download software, please go to download.netapp.com. The Global Support Center can be reached during this time (and at all times) by the phone numbers below: 1-888-4NETAPP (toll free within U.S.) 1-408-822-4700 (direct dial from elsewhere) 00 800 44 NETAPP (for countries with UIFN; toll-free) +31 23 5679605 (for all other countries; int'l call r ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

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MAIL PROBE - PLEASE IGNORE
by Brian.Murray＠netapp.com 18 Jul '00

18 Jul '00

Testing mail delivery to toasters(a)mathworks.com

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RE: Files being deleted
by Mike Sphar 18 Jul '00

18 Jul '00

Yes, I had the same question. Similar results can occur on the UNIX side when editing files with vi if the local partition that holds vi's tmp files (often /usr/tmp) is full. (Note that the filer itself doesn't necessarily have to be full. It could be the machine people are doing editing from.) -- Mike Sphar - Sr Systems Administrator - Engineering Support Services, BOFH, GWP, MCP, MCP+I, MCSE, BFD -----Original Message----- From: Krzysztof Miller [mailto:tytus@lucent.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2000 6:10 AM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: Re: Files being deleted What editor does user use and how directory is mounted ? I had similiar problems with Wincenter Pro and Interdrive (mounting shares for PCs using NFS) regards -- Krzysztof bhaskar.g(a)philips.com wrote: > > Hi All, > > Strange things are happening on the Filer. We have a F720, with Ontap version 5.3.5R2P2. > > Users are editing a file, once they quit the editor and look at the file size it is of zero bytes. > This is happening quite often. Any solution for this problem. > > Thanks for snapshots we could retrieve the file back. Though the snapshots are there this is > not good. > > kind regards > > Bhaskar G > Philips Semiconductors, > #3, Sterling Square,Madras Bank Road, > Off St Mark's Road,BANGALORE-560 001. > Voice : +91 80 222 9200 Ext 5060 > Fax: +91 80 2229700

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RE: getting back "broken" disk
by Adam.Fox＠netapp.com 18 Jul '00

18 Jul '00

filer> rc_toggle_baisc filer*> disk_zero <X.Y> Then pop the disk out and pop it back in. (You should probably use disk swap to be safe). Hope this helps. -- Adam Fox NetApp Professional Services, NC adamfox(a)netapp.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Abu Ihsan [mailto:ihsanna@yahoo.com] > Sent: Monday, July 17, 2000 11:35 PM > To: toasters(a)mathworks.com > Subject: getting back "broken" disk > > > Hi, > I've mistakenly runned "disk fail" to a disk and it is > now marked "broken". > How do I get the disk back to operation ? > > thanks, > --ihsanna > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! > http://mail.yahoo.com/ >

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toasters July 2000