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Re: Strange errors when inserting used X302A-R5 BSAS disk into DS4246 shelf
by John Stoffel 08 Jul '23

08 Jul '23

>>>>> "Florian" == Florian Schmid via Toasters <toasters(a)teaparty.net> writes: > we have an old NetApp dev cluster containing a pair of FAS 8060 > nodes and several DS4246 shelves with 1TB X302A-R5 BSAS disk. Those are rock solid heads for sure! I've still got a pair in production here. > I have replaced several disks already over the last years and never > had issues to do so, but this time, I have tried 2 disks and both > have reported the same strange issues on this shelf port. The port > of the shelf I would think, is fine, because NetApp has reported a > broken spare disk on this port, but nothing special. How many shelves do you have? And have you tried putting the disk into a different slot? And when you say "broken spare disk on this port" are you talking about the SAS port on the disk shelf, or about the disk slot in the disk shelf? > When I look on NetApp site, I don't find a real solution here, so I > hope someone of you can help me here? > This errors I'm getting: > 2/14/2023 18:24:45 node-02 ERROR scsi.cmd.checkCondition: Unknown device 0d.11.10: Check Condition: CDB 0x12: Sense Data SCSI:illegal request - (0x5 - 0x20 0x0 0x0)(9997). > 2/14/2023 18:22:06 node-02 ERROR scsi.cmd.checkCondition: Unknown device 0d.11.10: Check Condition: CDB 0x12: Sense Data SCSI:illegal request - (0x5 - 0x20 0x0 0x0)(0). > 2/14/2023 18:20:01 node-02 ERROR scsi.cmd.checkCondition: Unknown device 0d.11.10: Check Condition: CDB 0x12: Sense Data SCSI:illegal request - (0x5 - 0x20 0x0 0x0)(0). > 2/14/2023 18:19:01 node-01 ERROR scsi.cmd.checkCondition: Unknown device 1a.11.10: Check Condition: CDB 0x12: Sense Data SCSI:illegal request - (0x5 - 0x20 0x0 0x0)(0). > 2/14/2023 18:17:56 node-02 ERROR scsi.cmd.checkCondition: Unknown device 0d.11.10: Check Condition: CDB 0x12: Sense Data SCSI:illegal request - (0x5 - 0x20 0x0 0x0)(0). > 2/14/2023 18:16:06 node-01 ERROR scsi.cmd.checkCondition: Unknown device 1a.11.10: Check Condition: CDB 0x12: Sense Data SCSI:illegal request - (0x5 - 0x20 0x0 0x0)(0). > 2/14/2023 18:15:51 node-02 ERROR scsi.cmd.checkCondition: Unknown device 0d.11.10: Check Condition: CDB 0x12: Sense Data SCSI:illegal request - (0x5 - 0x20 0x0 0x0)(0). > 2/14/2023 18:14:01 node-01 ERROR scsi.cmd.checkCondition: Unknown device 1a.11.10: Check Condition: CDB 0x12: Sense Data SCSI:illegal request - (0x5 - 0x20 0x0 0x0)(0). > 2/14/2023 18:13:46 node-02 ERROR scsi.cmd.checkCondition: Unknown device 0d.11.10: Check Condition: CDB 0x12: Sense Data SCSI:illegal request - (0x5 - 0x20 0x0 0x0)(0). > 2/14/2023 18:11:41 node-02 ERROR scsi.cmd.checkCondition: Unknown device 0d.11.10: Check Condition: CDB 0x12: Sense Data SCSI:illegal request - (0x5 - 0x20 0x0 0x0)(0). > 2/14/2023 18:09:36 node-02 ERROR scsi.cmd.checkCondition: Unknown device 0d.11.10: Check Condition: CDB 0x12: Sense Data SCSI:illegal request - (0x5 - 0x20 0x0 0x0)(0). > 2/14/2023 18:09:01 node-01 ERROR scsi.cmd.checkCondition: Unknown device 1a.11.10: Check Condition: CDB 0x12: Sense Data SCSI:illegal request - (0x5 - 0x20 0x0 0x0)(0). > 2/14/2023 18:07:31 node-02 ERROR scsi.cmd.checkCondition: Unknown device 0d.11.10: Check Condition: CDB 0x12: Sense Data SCSI:illegal request - (0x5 - 0x20 0x0 0x0)(0). > 2/14/2023 18:05:26 node-02 ERROR scsi.cmd.checkCondition: Unknown device 0d.11.10: Check Condition: CDB 0x12: Sense Data SCSI:illegal request - (0x5 - 0x20 0x0 0x0)(0). > 2/14/2023 18:04:01 node-01 ERROR scsi.cmd.checkCondition: Unknown device 1a.11.10: Check Condition: CDB 0x12: Sense Data SCSI:illegal request - (0x5 - 0x20 0x0 0x0)(0). > 2/14/2023 18:03:21 node-02 ERROR scsi.cmd.checkCondition: Unknown device 0d.11.10: Check Condition: CDB 0x12: Sense Data SCSI:illegal request - (0x5 - 0x20 0x0 0x0)(0). > disk show -disk 2.11.10 > There are no entries matching your query. This strongly implies to me that the physical slot in the disk shelf is going bad, or has a bad connector. Or that you just got a bad disk from the vendor. I'd have them replace it with a known good one. If you have another spare disk working in the system, I'd move it to this slot and see what happens. And of course move the un-recognized disk there to check whether it's the shelf disk slot, or the disk itself is bad. > The disk is not recognized and NetApp is throwing this errors... > Both disks have been bought from a known second hand shop, where we > never had issues in the past with "used" parts. Bad disks happen. > We are running 9.7 on the cluster with a relatively new disk > qualification package. I would also say, that those old disks > haven't got any firmware updates for the last 3 years or so... We're still running 9.3... ugh.

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Strange errors when inserting used X302A-R5 BSAS disk into DS4246 shelf
by Florian Schmid 17 Feb '23

17 Feb '23

Hi, we have an old NetApp dev cluster containing a pair of FAS 8060 nodes and several DS4246 shelves with 1TB X302A-R5 BSAS disk. I have replaced several disks already over the last years and never had issues to do so, but this time, I have tried 2 disks and both have reported the same strange issues on this shelf port. The port of the shelf I would think, is fine, because NetApp has reported a broken spare disk on this port, but nothing special. When I look on NetApp site, I don't find a real solution here, so I hope someone of you can help me here? This errors I'm getting: 2/14/2023 18:24:45 node-02 ERROR scsi.cmd.checkCondition: Unknown device 0d.11.10: Check Condition: CDB 0x12: Sense Data SCSI:illegal request - (0x5 - 0x20 0x0 0x0)(9997). 2/14/2023 18:22:06 node-02 ERROR scsi.cmd.checkCondition: Unknown device 0d.11.10: Check Condition: CDB 0x12: Sense Data SCSI:illegal request - (0x5 - 0x20 0x0 0x0)(0). 2/14/2023 18:20:01 node-02 ERROR scsi.cmd.checkCondition: Unknown device 0d.11.10: Check Condition: CDB 0x12: Sense Data SCSI:illegal request - (0x5 - 0x20 0x0 0x0)(0). 2/14/2023 18:19:01 node-01 ERROR scsi.cmd.checkCondition: Unknown device 1a.11.10: Check Condition: CDB 0x12: Sense Data SCSI:illegal request - (0x5 - 0x20 0x0 0x0)(0). 2/14/2023 18:17:56 node-02 ERROR scsi.cmd.checkCondition: Unknown device 0d.11.10: Check Condition: CDB 0x12: Sense Data SCSI:illegal request - (0x5 - 0x20 0x0 0x0)(0). 2/14/2023 18:16:06 node-01 ERROR scsi.cmd.checkCondition: Unknown device 1a.11.10: Check Condition: CDB 0x12: Sense Data SCSI:illegal request - (0x5 - 0x20 0x0 0x0)(0). 2/14/2023 18:15:51 node-02 ERROR scsi.cmd.checkCondition: Unknown device 0d.11.10: Check Condition: CDB 0x12: Sense Data SCSI:illegal request - (0x5 - 0x20 0x0 0x0)(0). 2/14/2023 18:14:01 node-01 ERROR scsi.cmd.checkCondition: Unknown device 1a.11.10: Check Condition: CDB 0x12: Sense Data SCSI:illegal request - (0x5 - 0x20 0x0 0x0)(0). 2/14/2023 18:13:46 node-02 ERROR scsi.cmd.checkCondition: Unknown device 0d.11.10: Check Condition: CDB 0x12: Sense Data SCSI:illegal request - (0x5 - 0x20 0x0 0x0)(0). 2/14/2023 18:11:41 node-02 ERROR scsi.cmd.checkCondition: Unknown device 0d.11.10: Check Condition: CDB 0x12: Sense Data SCSI:illegal request - (0x5 - 0x20 0x0 0x0)(0). 2/14/2023 18:09:36 node-02 ERROR scsi.cmd.checkCondition: Unknown device 0d.11.10: Check Condition: CDB 0x12: Sense Data SCSI:illegal request - (0x5 - 0x20 0x0 0x0)(0). 2/14/2023 18:09:01 node-01 ERROR scsi.cmd.checkCondition: Unknown device 1a.11.10: Check Condition: CDB 0x12: Sense Data SCSI:illegal request - (0x5 - 0x20 0x0 0x0)(0). 2/14/2023 18:07:31 node-02 ERROR scsi.cmd.checkCondition: Unknown device 0d.11.10: Check Condition: CDB 0x12: Sense Data SCSI:illegal request - (0x5 - 0x20 0x0 0x0)(0). 2/14/2023 18:05:26 node-02 ERROR scsi.cmd.checkCondition: Unknown device 0d.11.10: Check Condition: CDB 0x12: Sense Data SCSI:illegal request - (0x5 - 0x20 0x0 0x0)(0). 2/14/2023 18:04:01 node-01 ERROR scsi.cmd.checkCondition: Unknown device 1a.11.10: Check Condition: CDB 0x12: Sense Data SCSI:illegal request - (0x5 - 0x20 0x0 0x0)(0). 2/14/2023 18:03:21 node-02 ERROR scsi.cmd.checkCondition: Unknown device 0d.11.10: Check Condition: CDB 0x12: Sense Data SCSI:illegal request - (0x5 - 0x20 0x0 0x0)(0). disk show -disk 2.11.10 There are no entries matching your query. The disk is not recognized and NetApp is throwing this errors... Both disks have been bought from a known second hand shop, where we never had issues in the past with "used" parts. We are running 9.7 on the cluster with a relatively new disk qualification package. I would also say, that those old disks haven't got any firmware updates for the last 3 years or so... Thank you very much in advance. Best regards, Florian

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Service-Policies does not restrict SSH...
by Heino Walther 05 Jan '23

05 Jan '23

Hi there I am trying to restrict which IP addresses can reach the SSH port on the default cluster management interface… I first cloned the default-management service-policy to a new policy… I then restrict the service “management-ssh” to a specific range, say 10.0.2.0/24 I then modify the cluster lif and the two node management interfaces, so that they use my new service-policy. But… I am still able to ssh into the system from 10.10.10.0/24… which makes no sense at all… If I do the same to the management-https it _does_ work as expected… The “old” firewall is enabled, and all policies are set to 0.0.0.0/0 (I think this old firewall is depreciated… ) So it there something specific about ssh? (ONTAP 9.12.1) Personally I think the “firewall” features are a mess on ONTAP at the moment… also the fact that you can only open up for IP ranges, and not specific IP addresses… so the “best” you can do is /30 I guess? Why not just allow specific IP or even ranges.. like 10.10.10.5, 10.10.10.5-10, and 10.10.20.0/24 Any help or input is appreciated 😊 /H

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Two node MetroCluster performance issues?
by Heino Walther 21 Dec '22

21 Dec '22

Hi there I have a setup with a two node Fabric MetroCluster with A300 nodes and four Brocade 6510 switches places about 10KM from each other. Our ESXi 7.0 hosts connects via 16G FC using another four frontend Brocade 6510 switches. Our ESXi hosts can see four paths for each LUN they are presented from the SVMs. ESXi show all four paths as Active (I/O) which I find a bit odd, because two of the paths are remote to the ESXi hosts… Both the ESXi and the igroup on the NetApp is configured for ALUA… but I have googled that there can be issues with this, and maybe we have those issues… The main issue is that if we do a few performance tests across different datastores (local and remote to the ESXi host), we see OK performance for the local datastores (800+MB/sec.) but if we try to test against a datastore that is remote to the ESXi host we see 50-60MB/sec. which is a huge difference and leads us to question the setup… We are aware that especially writing to a remote datastore will involve a transfer to the remote controller (10KM) this controller then has to write this to it’s peer (remote) controller (10KM) the remote peer than has to send an ack. back to the peer (10KM) which then sends an ack. to the ESXi host (10KM) so all in all 40KM plus waiting for the systems… it is not ideal, but is this kind of performance normal? The two nodes does have an ethernet based cluster interconnect which is currently linked at 1Gb, and I am beginning to suspect that the data between the two nodes is going via this link? But the more I think about it, the more it does not make sense? Our FC interswitch links are running 8Gb, but on the switches we see nothing near saturation of any ports… and we of cause also checked for port errors of any kind… If anyone has a similar setup, any help would be great… we are doing a few more tests, but we are close to opening a case with NetApp… /B

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Migration to DS4486 shelf?
by Heino Walther 05 Dec '22

05 Dec '22

Hi there Because of space constraints I am planning to move my 3 pcs. DS212C into a DS4486. But I have a few questions 😊 My existing disks are X318 (8TB NL-SAS), and I think the caddies for the DS4486 are also SAS, so that should technically fit? Does the NetApp see 24 or 48 disks from the DS4486? Because I plan to reuse existing disks with aggregates on them… I can see the DS4486 use special PN as spare disks because the caddy has two disks installed. How does NetApp handle the replacement when one disk of the two dies? I know the healthy disk is also copied to a spare before you can replace the caddy, but do you then replace both disks, or do you just replace the broken disk of the two? I also have plans on replacing the IOM6 modules with IOM12 just as you can in the DS4246 shelfs.. any issues with that? I know this is close if not far beyond what is supported 😉 /Heino Heino Walther<https://www.linkedin.com/in/heinowalther/> Beardmann ApS<http://beardmann.dk/> Jellingvej 9 - 7100 Vejle<https://goo.gl/maps/xQVPFMHXpXu> D: 7199 9060 M: 2075 7501

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NetApp Hardware IOM12 question...
by Heino Walther 29 Nov '22

29 Nov '22

Hi there Are the IOM12 modules from ONTAP and E-Series interchangeable ? ONTAP PN: X5720A E-SERIES PN: E-X5720A They look the same, but do they have the same FW installed? And/or are ONTAP/E-Series able to overwrite the FW with their shelf firmware? (We are only talking the IOM12 modules, the disks and the shelf is E-Series (original)) /Heino

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SV: NetApp backup to 3rd party S3 storage
by Heino Walther 29 Nov '22

29 Nov '22

Hi Florian The short answer is no. What the cloud-backup as you call it, does, it to move “older” datablocks to an S3 target or it can move blocks in your snapshots. So the information of where the blocks are stored is still in the original volume, and you need to back that information up either by SnapMirror/Vault or an NDMP dump. Also, if you plan using anything else than another ONTAP or StorageGRID, you will need to buy license… If you do not have another NetApp system to SnapMirror to, I would look into NDMP backup as an option… it is supported by most backup products like BackupExec etc… /Heino Fra: Florian Schmid <fschmid(a)ubimet.com> Dato: mandag, 28. november 2022 kl. 14.45 Til: toasters(a)teaparty.net <toasters(a)teaparty.net> Emne: NetApp backup to 3rd party S3 storage Hi there, I wanted to ask, if someone knows or has this done already, if you can backup your on premise NetApp Ontap volumes to a 3rd party S3 storage. As far as I understand this so called "cloud-backup", it can send snapshot diffs (block based) to a S3 storage like AWS or on-premise StorageGrid nodes. But would this also work to 3rd party S3 storage tools like minIO? Let's image we have a huge on-premise S3 storage running minIO or what ever vendor, can I use this also as a target for my Ontap volume backup? NetApp itself is only mentioning 3rd party S3 storage for tiering, but not for backup. If this is not possible, is there another possibility to backup volume snapshot diffs to a non netapp storage? It must be block based and not file based backup. Best regards Florian

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Re:
by Sebastian Goetze 29 Nov '22

29 Nov '22

FYI: Technical Presentation: SnapMirror Cloud SE Presentation (9.12.1): https://fieldportal.netapp.com/content/1236843?assetComponentId=1239342 Sebastian On 28.11.2022 19:19, Michael Bergman via Toasters wrote: > From: > Michael Bergman via Toasters <toasters(a)teaparty.net> > Date: > 28.11.2022, 19:19 > > To: > Toasters <toasters(a)teaparty.net> > > > > Re: NetApp backup to 3rd party S3 storage.eml > > Subject: > Re: NetApp backup to 3rd party S3 storage > From: > Michael Bergman <michael.bergman(a)ericsson.com> > Date: > 28.11.2022, 19:19 > > To: > Toasters <toasters(a)teaparty.net> > > > On 2022-11-28 17:22, Douglas Siggins wrote: >> Can someone please clarify this for me? My understanding is that cloud >> backup is just scheduling the snap diff v3 to object storage. You could get >> similar functionality by any vendor that netapp approves, of which I believe >> there are 4 others? > First of all: nothing of what I write below has anything to do with "S3 > Bucket mirror" from a Primary ONTAP system which does S3 storage. > > CBS (Cloud Backup Service) is something that originally runs in-Cloud only. > That's where it was always meant to live. But now it can also run > "off-Cloud" (= on-prem), in something called NetApp Cloud Manager Dark Site > Edition. Which you'd then need to install in your own environment first, I > think it's a VM (ESXi) image for example. > CBS an orchestrator which uses SnapDiff v3 and leverage SnapMirror Cloud to > take "snapshots" (block diffs just like SnapMirror/-Vault does) and puts it > in an S3 Bucket. For on-prem S3 systems, only StorageGRID and ONTAP are > approved today. Not minIO or anything else. > > There are other vendors yes, tech partners, which have paid NetApp to use > SnapDiff v3 and SnapMirror Cloud in the same fashion CBS does. That product, > e.g. Cleondris Appliance or Rubrik Foundation Suite, then does all the > orchestration and configuration of your backups, the work that SnapVault > does inside ONTAP traditionally. That product will have to keep track of > all the files and blocks, what belongs where: all the backup metadata. All > that which a SnapVault target system's ONTAP (WAFL) will keep track of > traditionally. > > To use a 3rd party product in that list, you need to purchase something > called HCB (Hybrid Cloud Bundle) from NetApp. To enable the SM Cloud + > SnapDiff v3 from the ONTAP side so to speak. You have to pay for it per TiB > (Tebibyte) "physical used data" which you have backed up to your S3 target > system. The definition of this is as opposed to "logical used data" which > CBS uses. I won't go into the distinction here because I do not want to > cause even more confusion. All this*is* confusing, indeed. Talk to your > account team and force them to penetrate this and explain it to you properly! > > Douglas Siggins wrote: >> I tried getting licenses to try this on premise to ontap s3 and was >> immediately turned away. It's super unclear how netapp intends to position >> this cloud. Has anyone been able to try the inbuilt backup to an ontap or >> grid target? > Hm. Interesting. You were "turned away"...? By your account team at NetApp? > I agree that things are rather unclear around this. > If you wish to use CBS on-prem, then clearly as things have progressed these > days NetApp compete directly with their tech partners products: Rubrik, > Cleondris, ProLion, CommVault (those which have licensed SnapDiff v3). > The price models are in constant flux and have been for at least 12 months. > It's confusing and can only get better for us who have huge on-prem > environments and want to leverage at least some of the new in-Cloud > cleverness NetApp has come up with over the past 24 months. > > /M > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: SV: NetApp backup to 3rd party S3 storage > Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2022 14:03:38 +0000 > From: Heino Walther<hw(a)beardmann.dk> > To: Florian Schmid<fschmid(a)ubimet.com>,"toasters(a)teaparty.net" > <toasters(a)teaparty.net> > > Hi Florian > > The short answer is no. > > What the cloud-backup as you call it, does, it to move older datablocks to > an S3 target or it can move blocks in your snapshots. > > So the information of where the blocks are stored is still in the original > volume, and you need to back that information up either by SnapMirror/Vault > or an NDMP dump. > > Also, if you plan using anything else than another ONTAP or StorageGRID, you > will need to buy license > > If you do not have another NetApp system to SnapMirror to, I would look into > NDMP backup as an option it is supported by most backup products like > BackupExec etc > > /Heino > > *Fra: *Florian Schmid<fschmid(a)ubimet.com> > *Dato: *mandag, 28. november 2022 kl. 14.45 > *Til: *toasters(a)teaparty.net<toasters(a)teaparty.net> > *Emne: *NetApp backup to 3rd party S3 storage > > Hi there, > > I wanted to ask, if someone knows or has this done already, if you can > backup your on premise NetApp Ontap volumes to a 3rd party S3 storage. > > As far as I understand this so called "cloud-backup", it can send snapshot > diffs (block based) to a S3 storage like AWS or on-premise StorageGrid nodes. > > But would this also work to 3rd party S3 storage tools like minIO? > > Let's image we have a huge on-premise S3 storage running minIO or what ever > vendor, can I use this also as a target for my Ontap volume backup? > > NetApp itself is only mentioning 3rd party S3 storage for tiering, but not > for backup. > > If this is not possible, is there another possibility to backup volume > snapshot diffs to a non netapp storage? It must be block based and not file > based backup. > > Best regards > Florian > > > _______________________________________________ > Toasters mailing list > Toasters(a)teaparty.net > https://www.teaparty.net/mailman/listinfo/toasters > Attachments: > > Re: NetApp backup to 3rd party S3 storage.eml 14,0 KB >

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(no subject)
by Fred Grieco 28 Nov '22

28 Nov '22

I don't believe this would happen just within Netapp software. You would need a 3rd party data mover (backup software - netbackup, rubrik). It would also need to support snapdiff if you just want to be reading diffs. Many of these products will write only incrementals to the s3 back and storage though, regardless of how its reading the data. On Mon, Nov 28, 2022 at 8:58 AM, Florian Schmid via Toasters<toasters(a)teaparty.net> wrote: Hi there, I wanted to ask, if someone knows or has this done already, if you can backup your on premise NetApp Ontap volumes to a 3rd party S3 storage. As far as I understand this so called "cloud-backup", it can send snapshot diffs (block based) to a S3 storage like AWS or on-premise StorageGrid nodes. But would this also work to 3rd party S3 storage tools like minIO? Let's image we have a huge on-premise S3 storage running minIO or what ever vendor, can I use this also as a target for my Ontap volume backup? NetApp itself is only mentioning 3rd party S3 storage for tiering, but not for backup. If this is not possible, is there another possibility to backup volume snapshot diffs to a non netapp storage? It must be block based and not file based backup. Best regards Florian _______________________________________________ Toasters mailing list Toasters(a)teaparty.net https://www.teaparty.net/mailman/listinfo/toasters

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Re:
by Basil 28 Nov '22

28 Nov '22

Hi Florian, According to their marketing materials ( https://docs.netapp.com/us-en/cloud-manager-backup-restore/concept-ontap-ba…) they still only support storagegrid for on prem object storage. Strategically, I believe they are using this as a way to gain on-prem object storage footprint in customer accounts. Sticking to block-based solutions means playing by their rules. Cheers! Basil On Mon, Nov 28, 2022 at 8:48 AM Florian Schmid via Toasters < toasters(a)teaparty.net> wrote: > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Florian Schmid <fschmid(a)ubimet.com> > To: toasters(a)teaparty.net > Cc: > Bcc: > Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2022 13:45:28 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: NetApp backup to 3rd party S3 storage > Hi there, > > I wanted to ask, if someone knows or has this done already, if you can > backup your on premise NetApp Ontap volumes to a 3rd party S3 storage. > > As far as I understand this so called "cloud-backup", it can send snapshot > diffs (block based) to a S3 storage like AWS or on-premise StorageGrid > nodes. > > But would this also work to 3rd party S3 storage tools like minIO? > > Let's image we have a huge on-premise S3 storage running minIO or what > ever vendor, can I use this also as a target for my Ontap volume backup? > > NetApp itself is only mentioning 3rd party S3 storage for tiering, but not > for backup. > > If this is not possible, is there another possibility to backup volume > snapshot diffs to a non netapp storage? > It must be block based and not file based backup. > > Best regards > Florian > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Florian Schmid via Toasters <toasters(a)teaparty.net> > To: toasters(a)teaparty.net > Cc: > Bcc: > Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2022 13:45:44 GMT > Subject: > _______________________________________________ > Toasters mailing list > Toasters(a)teaparty.net > https://www.teaparty.net/mailman/listinfo/toasters

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