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RE: data management through compression for Netapp
by Glenn Walker 28 Feb '07

28 Feb '07

NetApp is definitely spoiling me with their feature set! The dedupe thoughts were specific to NetApp - ie, if NetApp were to perform dedupe on the source, what would life be like. I wasn't aware that Data Domain wouldn't use NetApp back-end storage... deduping without having some impressive fault tolerance is NOT a good idea! Glenn ________________________________ From: Glenn Dekhayser [mailto:gdekhayser@voyantinc.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 9:26 AM To: Glenn Walker; Darren Soothill; toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: RE: data management through compression for Netapp Ah, Glenn, you're so spoiled with Netapp! :-) Problem is, with things like Data Domain, unless you're going to use the Netapp as back-end FC storage (which isn't supported yet), we're not in WAFL-land, so in most cases you are writing to the same place. And without Raid-DP, a single bit error on a raid rebuild could have a much bigger impact than normal, if that particular bit belongs to a byte that's referenced mulitple times in the de-duping scheme. Basically, I'm making the argument that if you're going to use de-duping- Raid-DP and WAFL is a MUST! Regarding the caching- de-duping would eliminate the efficiencies of WAFL read-ahead, since the blocks wouldn't be temporally located. While the read ahead would pick up the stub, the de-duping software (not being netapp-aware) would need to go back and retrieve the actual data referenced by the stub, and there goes your cache hit %. But, sometimes performance is not important. Glenn (the other one) ________________________________ From: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com [mailto:owner-toasters@mathworks.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Walker Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 8:41 AM To: Darren Soothill; toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: RE: data management through compression for Netapp I think that all of the solutions have their place - I'm not as interested in 'compression' as I am with 'deDupe' - they are separate, and not entirely equal. The only issue I can foresee with deDupe, besides adding overhead, is chance of failure: if the data is stored in a single block, and it is lost, so are you - but that's why you have parity, so it shouldn't be any more dangerous than normal data storage (provided the software works adequately). As for overhead, having multiple individuals 'hit' the same block would cause performance issues - but I'm not so convinced: There's really no such thing as 'overwrite' in ONTAP, it's always writing to a free block - as for reading the single block that has been deDuped, even though multiple machines hitting the same block should ordinarily cause higher latencies for everyone, I would think that the simple fact that there is one block with many accesses would indicate that it would already be cached - caching it in memory should remove the read latency penalty. Stubs carry their own penalties, btw: when the stub is seen, the filer must use the fpolicy service to communicate with the hosting system to redirect and\or obtain the actual data: this is multiple layers of network communication, memory lookup, and disk access before the client gets the requested data - this (in theory) should be slower than a self contained system in almost every case. VTL is definitely a good solution for backups and we're looking into them now. But HSM products, and archiving products of all types, still have one common flaw: they move the data around and it must then be managed. While this would be the most likely best way of dealing with the massive amounts of data in anyone's environment, it would still be nice to keep it all in one place. That's just a dream, anyways... I'm not sure that there would be enough savings through deDupe to actually accomplish anything like this. Now on the other hand, if the filer were able to move data to cheaper ATA storage within the same system, and simply use a redirector in the filesystem (pointer through vvbn), that could prove useful: you'd have the same lookup of vvbn-to-pvbn in order to find the data, but the actual blocks would be elsewhere within the system. No additional layers of stubs, or redirection through some other HSM system. Sorry for the long email this early in the morning, Glenn ________________________________ From: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com [mailto:owner-toasters@mathworks.com] On Behalf Of Darren Soothill Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 12:36 AM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: RE: data management through compression for Netapp The issue with any compression technology is the latency it adds to any workload and what happens with a large number of people doing the same thing. Would you not be better at looking at an archiving product that can archive off the older files leaving stub files behind so any application can carry on working with no interruption. Assuming that the data is stored as lots of files. Perhaps you need to look at some traditional HSM type product that integrates with a tape library except instead of using a physical tape library you use a VTL which will do the deduplication and compression for you. You then have the added advantage that the VTL can spit out copies of the virtual tapes to be taken off site for DR. This type of solution should then be platform independent. ________________________________ From: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com [mailto:owner-toasters@mathworks.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Walker Sent: 27 February 2007 03:18 To: Glenn Dekhayser; Wilbur Castro; toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: RE: data management through compression for Netapp I've also heard good things about Data Domain. On the other hand, does anyone have any experience with the A-SIS deDupe technology from NetApp? Sounds great, except for the 'out of band' nature of it. Glenn ________________________________ From: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com [mailto:owner-toasters@mathworks.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Dekhayser Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 8:36 PM To: Wilbur Castro; toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: RE: data management through compression for Netapp Wilbur: What are your performance requirements? Adding compression/deDup into this has a serious impact on I/O performance, it will pretty much totally screw any read-ahead optimization. If you still want to go ahead, look at Data domain's Gateway series. It doesn't formally support Netapp, but i'm sure you could use it. This will do exactly what you want, as long as you want NFS! Glenn (the other one) ________________________________ From: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com [mailto:owner-toasters@mathworks.com] On Behalf Of Wilbur Castro Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 4:55 PM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: data management through compression for Netapp Hi toasters, We have a couple of 100 TBs of heterogenous storage (some from netapp), and see that our storage grows close to 60% over year. We were looking at alternatives for managing this data growth. Compression was one of the techniques we were considering for our nearline and (possibly) primary storage. Our applications cannot change to do their own compression, so it boils down to doing this in the storage layer or through an external device. Also, we'd like to not have any performance impact and compression to happen transparently. Deduplication technology from storage vendors would help, but it is not a hetrogenous solution. I am not aware of any compression technology from netapp. Are you folks aware of any solutions? Would love to hear your experience with those or other alternative ways you deal with the storage growth problem while managing costs. Thx, Wilbur

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RE: data management through compression for Netapp
by Glenn Walker 27 Feb '07

27 Feb '07

I think that all of the solutions have their place - I'm not as interested in 'compression' as I am with 'deDupe' - they are separate, and not entirely equal. The only issue I can foresee with deDupe, besides adding overhead, is chance of failure: if the data is stored in a single block, and it is lost, so are you - but that's why you have parity, so it shouldn't be any more dangerous than normal data storage (provided the software works adequately). As for overhead, having multiple individuals 'hit' the same block would cause performance issues - but I'm not so convinced: There's really no such thing as 'overwrite' in ONTAP, it's always writing to a free block - as for reading the single block that has been deDuped, even though multiple machines hitting the same block should ordinarily cause higher latencies for everyone, I would think that the simple fact that there is one block with many accesses would indicate that it would already be cached - caching it in memory should remove the read latency penalty. Stubs carry their own penalties, btw: when the stub is seen, the filer must use the fpolicy service to communicate with the hosting system to redirect and\or obtain the actual data: this is multiple layers of network communication, memory lookup, and disk access before the client gets the requested data - this (in theory) should be slower than a self contained system in almost every case. VTL is definitely a good solution for backups and we're looking into them now. But HSM products, and archiving products of all types, still have one common flaw: they move the data around and it must then be managed. While this would be the most likely best way of dealing with the massive amounts of data in anyone's environment, it would still be nice to keep it all in one place. That's just a dream, anyways... I'm not sure that there would be enough savings through deDupe to actually accomplish anything like this. Now on the other hand, if the filer were able to move data to cheaper ATA storage within the same system, and simply use a redirector in the filesystem (pointer through vvbn), that could prove useful: you'd have the same lookup of vvbn-to-pvbn in order to find the data, but the actual blocks would be elsewhere within the system. No additional layers of stubs, or redirection through some other HSM system. Sorry for the long email this early in the morning, Glenn ________________________________ From: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com [mailto:owner-toasters@mathworks.com] On Behalf Of Darren Soothill Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 12:36 AM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: RE: data management through compression for Netapp The issue with any compression technology is the latency it adds to any workload and what happens with a large number of people doing the same thing. Would you not be better at looking at an archiving product that can archive off the older files leaving stub files behind so any application can carry on working with no interruption. Assuming that the data is stored as lots of files. Perhaps you need to look at some traditional HSM type product that integrates with a tape library except instead of using a physical tape library you use a VTL which will do the deduplication and compression for you. You then have the added advantage that the VTL can spit out copies of the virtual tapes to be taken off site for DR. This type of solution should then be platform independent. ________________________________ From: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com [mailto:owner-toasters@mathworks.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Walker Sent: 27 February 2007 03:18 To: Glenn Dekhayser; Wilbur Castro; toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: RE: data management through compression for Netapp I've also heard good things about Data Domain. On the other hand, does anyone have any experience with the A-SIS deDupe technology from NetApp? Sounds great, except for the 'out of band' nature of it. Glenn ________________________________ From: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com [mailto:owner-toasters@mathworks.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Dekhayser Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 8:36 PM To: Wilbur Castro; toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: RE: data management through compression for Netapp Wilbur: What are your performance requirements? Adding compression/deDup into this has a serious impact on I/O performance, it will pretty much totally screw any read-ahead optimization. If you still want to go ahead, look at Data domain's Gateway series. It doesn't formally support Netapp, but i'm sure you could use it. This will do exactly what you want, as long as you want NFS! Glenn (the other one) ________________________________ From: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com [mailto:owner-toasters@mathworks.com] On Behalf Of Wilbur Castro Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 4:55 PM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: data management through compression for Netapp Hi toasters, We have a couple of 100 TBs of heterogenous storage (some from netapp), and see that our storage grows close to 60% over year. We were looking at alternatives for managing this data growth. Compression was one of the techniques we were considering for our nearline and (possibly) primary storage. Our applications cannot change to do their own compression, so it boils down to doing this in the storage layer or through an external device. Also, we'd like to not have any performance impact and compression to happen transparently. Deduplication technology from storage vendors would help, but it is not a hetrogenous solution. I am not aware of any compression technology from netapp. Are you folks aware of any solutions? Would love to hear your experience with those or other alternative ways you deal with the storage growth problem while managing costs. Thx, Wilbur

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RE: data management through compression for Netapp
by Glenn Walker 27 Feb '07

27 Feb '07

I've also heard good things about Data Domain. On the other hand, does anyone have any experience with the A-SIS deDupe technology from NetApp? Sounds great, except for the 'out of band' nature of it. Glenn ________________________________ From: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com [mailto:owner-toasters@mathworks.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Dekhayser Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 8:36 PM To: Wilbur Castro; toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: RE: data management through compression for Netapp Wilbur: What are your performance requirements? Adding compression/deDup into this has a serious impact on I/O performance, it will pretty much totally screw any read-ahead optimization. If you still want to go ahead, look at Data domain's Gateway series. It doesn't formally support Netapp, but i'm sure you could use it. This will do exactly what you want, as long as you want NFS! Glenn (the other one) ________________________________ From: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com [mailto:owner-toasters@mathworks.com] On Behalf Of Wilbur Castro Sent: Monday, February 26, 2007 4:55 PM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: data management through compression for Netapp Hi toasters, We have a couple of 100 TBs of heterogenous storage (some from netapp), and see that our storage grows close to 60% over year. We were looking at alternatives for managing this data growth. Compression was one of the techniques we were considering for our nearline and (possibly) primary storage. Our applications cannot change to do their own compression, so it boils down to doing this in the storage layer or through an external device. Also, we'd like to not have any performance impact and compression to happen transparently. Deduplication technology from storage vendors would help, but it is not a hetrogenous solution. I am not aware of any compression technology from netapp. Are you folks aware of any solutions? Would love to hear your experience with those or other alternative ways you deal with the storage growth problem while managing costs. Thx, Wilbur

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data management through compression for Netapp
by Wilbur Castro 27 Feb '07

27 Feb '07

Hi toasters, We have a couple of 100 TBs of heterogenous storage (some from netapp), and see that our storage grows close to 60% over year. We were looking at alternatives for managing this data growth. Compression was one of the techniques we were considering for our nearline and (possibly) primary storage. Our applications cannot change to do their own compression, so it boils down to doing this in the storage layer or through an external device. Also, we'd like to not have any performance impact and compression to happen transparently. Deduplication technology from storage vendors would help, but it is not a hetrogenous solution. I am not aware of any compression technology from netapp. Are you folks aware of any solutions? Would love to hear your experience with those or other alternative ways you deal with the storage growth problem while managing costs. Thx, Wilbur

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Re: data management through compression for Netapp
by Wilbur Castro 27 Feb '07

27 Feb '07

I took a look at storewiz. It sure looks promising. How transparent is it though? Do the nfs and windows clients know that the storewiz appliance exists (proxy) and do clients need to be reconfigured? or do they do some packet switching type of things? How does this work with your snapshots? Frequently changing files may take up more space since they are snapshotted. Does this work well for random access types of applications? I will need to test this thing like hell; it's either a promotion for cutting storage costs, or I lose my job if we corrupt data ;-) Thanks for the pointers guys. On 2/26/07, Skottie Miller <Scott.Miller(a)dreamworks.com> wrote: > > > > Wilbur Castro wrote: > > Hi toasters, > > > > We have a couple of 100 TBs of heterogenous storage (some from netapp), > > and see that our storage grows close to 60% over year. We were looking > > at alternatives for managing this data growth. Compression was one of > > the techniques we were considering for our nearline and (possibly) > > primary storage. Our applications cannot change to do their own > > compression, so it boils down to doing this in the storage layer or > > through an external device. Also, we'd like to not have any performance > > impact and compression to happen transparently. Deduplication technology > > from storage vendors would help, but it is not a hetrogenous solution. > > > > I am not aware of any compression technology from netapp. Are you folks > > aware of any solutions? Would love to hear your experience with those or > > other alternative ways you deal with the storage growth problem while > > managing costs. > > Look at StoreWiz. > http://www.storewiz.com > > in-line, transparent boxes that go between your > filers and their switch ports. > > I'm evaluating them now, and so far, so good. > > They have a software app that emulates their hardware, > so you can get a sense of the compression that will > result on your data set. > > also look at Acopia (http://www.acopia.com), they make > an "NFS switch" that lets you do transparent tiering > and data migration w/o impact to the applications. > consider a deployment where the "hot" few TB of data > are on the fastest/costliest filers, and the rest > is on lower-cost second-tier storage. put the acopia > logicially between the filers and the apps, and you > get alot of options, and the apps don't even know. > > we have one in-place for some long-term exposure testing, > and are considering more for some future roll-outs. > > -skottie > > > > > Thx, > > Wilbur > > -- > > Scott Miller > skottie(a)anim.DreamWorks.com >

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Software Ownership Query
by Philip Boyle 22 Feb '07

22 Feb '07

Hi guys, I've just received an FAS6030 cluster. The system shipped with ONTAP 7.2. I've upgraded the system to 7.2.1.1 bfiler09> version -b 1:/x86_64/kernel/primary.krn: OS 7.2.1.1 1:/backup/x86_64/kernel/primary.krn: OS 7.2 1:/x86_64/diag/diag.krn: 4.7 1:/x86_64/firmware/excelsio/firmware.img: Firmware 1.2.0 1:/x86_64/firmware/DrWho/firmware.img: Firmware 2.0.0 1:/boot/loader: Loader 1.2.1 Do you guys have much experience of disk ownership. On our FAS940 clusters, disk ownership was hardware based. FAS6030> disk show -v DISK OWNER POOL SERIAL NUMBER ------------ ------------- ----- ------------- 0e.40 FAS6030 (118041055) Pool0 ZAKTSGAH Tue Feb 20 11:13:43 GMT [localhost: diskown.isEnabled:info]: replayed event: software ownership has been enabled for this system Despite reading the below Netapp doc, I'm no closer to making a decision as to whether to retain the disk ownership option or remove it from my system. http://now.netapp.com/NOW/knowledge/docs/ontap/rel7211/ <http://now.netapp.com/NOW/knowledge/docs/ontap/rel7211/html/ontap/mgmtsag/3…> html/ontap/mgmtsag/3disk6.htm#1426071 <http://now.netapp.com/NOW/knowledge/docs/ontap/rel7211/html/ontap/mgmtsag/3…> Any feedback on the topic would be much appreciated. Thanks alot, Philip

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Quota CPU hog with Ontap 7.0
by JONES P.S. 21 Feb '07

21 Feb '07

We've just upgraded our main filers to 7.0.5 after running 588 days with no interruption on 6.5.5. However we've run into serious problems when enabling quotas. The system runs at 100% for ages and we eventually have to disable quotas altogether. On the old system it took about 1 hour and 20% CPU to initialise quotas so there's an enormous difference. The system is unuseable if we enable quotas on 7.0.5. Netapps haven't been much help; the articles they refer me too mention this problem but in all cases the bug notes claim its been fixed in 7.0.5. Anyone been here before me? We have ~20,000 accounts but most are captured with default quotas although we have around 1000 explicit entries defined in the quotas file. Thanks ... Paul Paul Jones, B.Sc, M.Sc, Ph.D. - Head of Systems Services, Information Technology Service, Durham University, South Road, Durham DH1 3LE Email: p.s.jones(a)durham.ac.uk Phone/Fax: 0191 334 2749/2701

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Re: NFSv3 + krb5 home directory problem
by Jim Davis 20 Feb '07

20 Feb '07

Brian Parent wrote: > I haven't seen any responses yet. Have you opened a ticket with NetApp? No; since the mount itself seems to succeed I think the Netapp side is doing the right thing. Why the credentials aren't being passed and why rpc.gssd isn't seeing anything is still a mystery. Posting to the Kerberos list produced no responses; posting to the Linux NFS list got a reply from one of the developers, but no fixes yet. > Please post a summary back to the list if you ever do make any progress. Big "if"... but I'll be glad to do so.

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RE: Large Oracle database question
by Miller, Michael CTR USTRANSCOM J2 20 Feb '07

20 Feb '07

I agree with your thoughts on performance but not the use of large raid groups. It would eat into the data spindle count but I think 10 disk RGs would increase the warm fuzzy feeling. I have pushed single parity RGs well past the safe point without problems but the guy is antsy about failures. I have never lost any data in the years I have been taking care of the filers. The plan right now is to use what comes with Solaris for filesystem management. VxVM was thought of for a while. Mike -----Original Message----- From: slinkymax0r [mailto:slinkywizard@integra.net] Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 4:06 PM To: tmac Cc: Miller, Michael CTR USTRANSCOM J2; toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: Re: Large Oracle database question hmmm... with an adequately sized head, his work load shouldn't be a problem at all. I would actually anticipate better performance/ recoverability with large aggregates of fast spindles, and RAID-DP means very large raid groups :) Would you be using NFS or block? If block, what file system would you be using over the RAID array? Regards, Max > Has anyone explained or showed this person a write-up on WAFL and > NetApp's implementation of RAID-4 and now RAID-DP? > ...how NetApp's version does not have a "hot" parity disk as all disks > are excersized about the same? > ...how RAID-DP is superior to RAID 1+0 and in an edge case is even > better (if you loose the same disk in both plexs of a RAID 1, you have > total data loss...you can loose any two disks with RAID-DP and loose > nothing) > ...how RAID-DP has very little overhead compared to NetApp's RAID-4? > ...how NetApp's RAID-4 is faster than most hardware RAID arrays? > > > I could go on, and on, an on....(ask others that know me...plus 10 > years at netapp helped) > > -- > --tmac > > RedHat Certified Engineer > > > > On 2/16/07, Miller, Michael CTR USTRANSCOM J2 > <michael.miller.ctr(a)ustranscom.mil> wrote: >> >> >> >> (This might show up twice) >> We are getting ready to stand up a 30+TB GIS app and I was wondering if >> anyone on the list has done something like this on a filer. >> >> The guy who will be running this doesn't think a filer would give him >> the >> performance required (not specified) and is also concerned that the >> parity >> drives will get beat to hard. >> >> He has been told by others that the only way to make this work as needed >> is >> to use RAID 1+0. This started out being required for all of the data but >> has >> been relaxed to just the indexes and current point of interest data. >> >> Any thoughts? >> >> >> Mike Miller >> General Dynamics Information Technology >> Michael.Miller.ctr(a)ustranscom.mil >> Michael.Miller(a)gdit.com >> Phone: 618-229-1185 >> >

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F760 memory spec
by Ronan Mullally 19 Feb '07

19 Feb '07

For sheer geek purposes, I've got an old F760, long out of warranty, in my garage. One of the DIMMs has developed a fault and I'd like to replace it. Does anybody know what the memory spec is? The DIMM is branded Samsung KM48S16030BT-GL. From what I can gather it's 168 pin 256MB SDRAM, but I don't know what speed (PC-100? PC-133?), and given that it's got 9 chips on it, it's ECC. Is the filer fussy about the memory it will accept? Do I have to replace this with identical memory, or will a pair of similar DIMMS do? -Ronan

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toasters