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Cidera with NetCache?
by Alex French 10 Aug '00

10 Aug '00

Has anyone used Cidera's satellite cache accelerators with a NetCache? Any good/bad experiences? Thanks,

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RE: NetApp questions
by rdobbins＠netmore.net 10 Aug '00

10 Aug '00

No account/password is required for *NIX access to the filer via NFS; that's all handled via the standard NFS permissions and *NIX filesystem permissions. As to running Oracle with the data and logfiles on a filer via NFS, I should think that even with a NetApp using Gigabit Ethernet, you'd take a -huge- performance hit as compared to a local disk array. I've no empirical data to back this up, mind you; it's just that there's so much overhead associated with NFS even on an optimized platform like the NetApp filer, I can't see it as being a win. If there's anyone out there with Oracle experience on filers via NFS, either pro or con, I'd love to hear from you. ----------------------------------------------------------- Roland Dobbins <rdobbins(a)netmore.net> // 818.535.5024 voice -----Original Message----- From: Jiang, Perry [mailto:Perry.Jiang@BMO.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2000 2:18 PM To: toasters Subject: NetApp questions Hi, there I have a question regarding NetApp Filer 740. Oracle account I am running a Solaris Oracle server, which is a NFS client of the NetApp Filer. Do I have to create an Oracle account on NetApp Filer and put the entry in /vol/vol0/etc/passwd? If yes, what the purpose of that? An on-line NetApp document, "Oracle for UNIX: Integrating with a NetApp Filer", stated that you need to create an Oracle account on Filer. However, according to the System Admin. Guide, /vol/vol0/etc/passwd is only for CIFS, not for NFS. You explaination is appreciated. Perr Jiang

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Snapshots and Oracle
by Aaron Sherman 10 Aug '00

10 Aug '00

I have a few snapshot questions for anyone else who's running Oracle: 1. Does a hot backup (as described on http://www.netapp.com/tech_library/3049.html) present any restoration problems? Has anyone done a restore from a hot backup? 2. Hot backups are as close to "live" as you're supposed to come, but it seems to me that a nice extra bit of paranoia would be to take snapshots 2-3 times per day of the live database. The image would be consistent, and Oracle would come up off of it as it would from a crash (unlike, say a tar of the data-files which would be junk). The only problem would be that you would loose any half-completed actions which were not correctly tansactionalized. Can anyone comment on this? 3. Has anyone seen roughly how much storage an Oracle snapshot takes? It seems to me that it would be larger than a filesystem snapshot because more blocks are changing. Of course, it depends on your read/write ratio, but is there a general consensus? I've so far been very impressed with my filer. Oracle over NFS sounded outright dumb to me at first, but damn if it isn't faster than local disk. Thanks. -- Aaron Sherman Systems Architect HighWired.com -- The global high school community http://www.highwired.com 300 North Beacon Street Watertown, MA 02472 (617) 926-1850 x238 (617) 926-1861 fax asherman(a)highwired-inc.com / ICQ#43677395 / Y!ajstrader "We had some good machines, but they don't work no more." -"Faded Flowers" / Shriekback

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Re: nomenclature (was Re: Filer storage for databases, seriously?)
by Darrell Fuhriman 10 Aug '00

10 Aug '00

"Todd C. Merrill" <tmerrill(a)mathworks.com> writes: > I wonder....at what point can we no longer call our beloved > single-function appliance a toaster and must call it, say, a kitchen? ;) I really, really hope that doesn't happen. Darrell

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SV: Replacing defective DLT7000 drives without rebooting the fil er
by Karl Erik Øyøygard 09 Aug '00

09 Aug '00

Klaus, I change drives on the fly all the time. ESD is a big issue here, so get out your antistatic wrist-strap and make sure the host and library share the same power connection/ground! Make sure the new drive is the same type, SCSI-ID and if possible same FirmWare. The host will see the new drive, just make sure it is not down/offline when you are finished. This is not the recommended way, but often you just can't wait several weeks for the next sheduled downtime. This goes for most systems, not just filers. -OYOY- Med hilsen - Best Regards, Karl Erik Øyøygard ProAct Systems AS Postboks 3047 - Lade Haakon VII's gt. 7 7002 Trondheim Tlf: 73 92 21 44 Fax: 73 92 08 88 Mob:93 25 24 24 E-mail: karl(a)proact.no SMS: +4793252424(a)sms.netcom.no --------------------------------------------- For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken

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Fwd: RE: Moving from one NT domain to another.
by Joan Pearson 09 Aug '00

09 Aug '00

Burt 14378 addresses this problem. It is fixed in a future release. When changing the filer's domain, if the builtin/administrators group contains the old domain's administrators group, it is removed and the new domain's administrators group is added. Joan Pearson >From: Karl Erik Øyøygard <karl(a)proact.no> >To: toasters(a)mathworks.com >Subject: RE: Moving from one NT domain to another. >Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 19:23:44 +0200 >X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) >X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by smtp.mathworks.com id NAA27433 >Sender: owner-dl-toasters(a)netapp.com > >Jeremy, > >You are right, the administrator (DomainAdmins) of the OLD domain will still >be member of the local administrators on the filer after the move, because >Lclgroups.cfg is not updated. > >This is how I do this: > >Rename cifssec.cfg, filersid.cfg and lclgroups.cfg in /etc on the filer. >Add filer via servermanager to the new domain. >Run `cifs setup` >Edit /etc/cifsconfig.cfg and remove all referances to users/groups in the >old domain. They will not show up correctly in FilerView! >And you may have to correct the ACL's on a LOT of files... Remember to set >new users as owner of home directory's for cifs homedir to work... > >I'm not sure you need to get cifssec and filersid out of the way, but it >will work if you do. > >Good luck! > >-OYOY- > >Med hilsen - Best Regards, >Karl Erik Øyøygard >ProAct Systems AS >Postboks 3047 - Lade >Haakon VII's gt. 7 >7002 Trondheim >Tlf: 73 92 21 44 Fax: 73 92 08 88 >Mob:93 25 24 24 > >E-mail: karl(a)proact.no >SMS: +4793252424(a)sms.netcom.no >--------------------------------------------- >For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and >wrong. -- H L Mencken >> We have an interesting problem that I'm hoping somebody on the list has >> first-hand experience with. We could use some suggestions. >> >> We are going to be moving from one NT domain to another. An account in >> Domain A, user1 does not have the same SID as the same account name in >> Domain B, so once you move, you would have to go through and reassign >> access permissions with the account in Domain B. This would be acceptable >> >> to us, but the problem is the same situation occurs for Administrator >> between the two domains, so we're worried about losing Administrator >> access >> to our filer. We would be able to put up with reassigning all user >> permissions afterward if we could resolve the Administrator problem. >> >> The question is, how do we move a filer from one NT domain to another, and >> >> still have Administrator access to it afterward? >> >> Thanks, >> >> -- jeremy >

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RE: Moving from one NT domain to another.
by Karl Erik Øyøygard 09 Aug '00

09 Aug '00

Jeremy, You are right, the administrator (DomainAdmins) of the OLD domain will still be member of the local administrators on the filer after the move, because Lclgroups.cfg is not updated. This is how I do this: Rename cifssec.cfg, filersid.cfg and lclgroups.cfg in /etc on the filer. Add filer via servermanager to the new domain. Run `cifs setup` Edit /etc/cifsconfig.cfg and remove all referances to users/groups in the old domain. They will not show up correctly in FilerView! And you may have to correct the ACL's on a LOT of files... Remember to set new users as owner of home directory's for cifs homedir to work... I'm not sure you need to get cifssec and filersid out of the way, but it will work if you do. Good luck! -OYOY- Med hilsen - Best Regards, Karl Erik Øyøygard ProAct Systems AS Postboks 3047 - Lade Haakon VII's gt. 7 7002 Trondheim Tlf: 73 92 21 44 Fax: 73 92 08 88 Mob:93 25 24 24 E-mail: karl(a)proact.no SMS: +4793252424(a)sms.netcom.no --------------------------------------------- For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken > We have an interesting problem that I'm hoping somebody on the list has > first-hand experience with. We could use some suggestions. > > We are going to be moving from one NT domain to another. An account in > Domain A, user1 does not have the same SID as the same account name in > Domain B, so once you move, you would have to go through and reassign > access permissions with the account in Domain B. This would be acceptable > > to us, but the problem is the same situation occurs for Administrator > between the two domains, so we're worried about losing Administrator > access > to our filer. We would be able to put up with reassigning all user > permissions afterward if we could resolve the Administrator problem. > > The question is, how do we move a filer from one NT domain to another, and > > still have Administrator access to it afterward? > > Thanks, > > -- jeremy

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RE: Filer storage for databases, seriously? (Was: Re: NetApp ques tions)
by Eyal Traitel 09 Aug '00

09 Aug '00

Nicholas, 1. It depends how you define performance. Restoring a database in a very short time is also great performance, and you will not get that in DAS, no unless you pay for 1 more copy of the data. 2. You should always look not at performance alone, but on price/performance, which today is with all these TCO-based calculations. This brings to the point where a fully loaded F760 with Gigabit card, can perform better than you can think of compared with those DAS systems, which forces you to the old world of static unshared copies of volumes... I believe that the fact that more and more eCommerce sites are choosing NAS (and mainly from its market leader...) as the solution will prove you better than any benchmark that this is totally possible and usable solution. Eyal. (I ran a small Orcale database of ~5gb, no problems, have no idea on bigger configs... sorry!) ===== Yours, Eyal Traitel eTraitel(a)yahoo.com, Home: 972-3-5290415 (Tel Aviv) *** eTraitel - it's the new eBuzzword ! *** __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/

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RE: Filer storage for databases, seriously? (Was: Re: NetApp ques tions)
by Pesce, Nicholas (FUSA) 09 Aug '00

09 Aug '00

Whoops, my screw up. I said raid 0 when I ment raid 1. This would make it 6 disks, not 3. But still the point is valid. 6 disks versus 14 is a large amount of disks.

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RE: NetApp questions
by Rick Hulsey 09 Aug '00

09 Aug '00

We are running Oracle on our filers currently and we didn't put the Oracle account in the /etc/passwd file on the filer. That really only comes into play if there are multiple systems attached to the filers and you are trying to do data sharing on these boxes, but the UIDs are not synced with NIS or something like that. Roland, I have been charged with a storage consolidation project. As part of this project, we did a survey of available storage technologies and looked at more from a "does this solve our problems?" perspective that from a "what is the fast storage available?" perspective. We did not however ignore the performance issues because I believed as you currently do that NFS just can't be as fast as local storage. We constructed a series of perl scripts and C programs to do I/O and log progress, timings, etc. I did this because I have in the past worked for a hardware manufacturer. My experiences working for a hardware manufacturer made me very jaded as to anything that any of the sales or marketing people said about performance. What we found out was that for general filesystem I/O, our F760 using a Gigabit interface was slightly faster than our JBOD SCSI disks if we used separate channels on the SCSI and used the same Gig-e interface. Otherwise the filer was way faster. When we compared the performance on the filer versus HP's mod-20 disks (a differential SCSI attached disk array that has 20 drive slots using a RAID5 LUN - it's really a 20-slot CLARiiON), we found that reading data on the mod-20 was about the same as reading data on the filer, but writing data was again way faster (2 - 3X depending on block sizes) on the filer. I think that this was caused by the advantages the WAFL in the filer has over other RAID5 implementations. All of these tests were done using an HP K-class and N-class boxes. If you were thinking that this is because Gig-e is just way fast, and that is what has to be used to get this type of performance, we also tested it with 100BaseT full duplex and found that it was about the same speed as locally attached SCSI. If I have a performance complaint it would be that Gig-e has shown as much improvement as I hoped for over local storage and 100BaseT full duplex. I'm hoping that Netapp will build boxes with more ram and/or fasters NICs to get the performance on Gig-e up to the 70+ MB/sec range. When we tested database accesses using Sybase we found that database loads on the filer ran as much as 50% faster, general queries, inserts and deletes, ran about 30% faster, and backups ran about 15% faster without even using snapshots. We did not capture specific stats on Oracle, but our DBAs expect similar results. There is another performance issue that is often overlooked that you get with filers or other systems that have 3-way mirror capabilities, and this is the part where we actually see some value in the storage. This is backup and recovery. On one of our database systems, we currently have a backup process that runs for about 10 hours. During this time our users are impacted because the database is in a state where all transactions are logged, but not actually committed to the database. This means that we can't do any heavy processing during this 10 hour window. With snapshots we will put the database in to backup mode only long enough to take a snapshot, and then return the database to online mode and continue normal processing. Next we use a separate Unix box to mount the newly created snapshot and send the files to tape without putting overhead on the database server. So from a performance perspective we gain 10 hours of processing time. This means that if the filer is only equal to our direct attached SCSI storage on a transaction by transaction basis, we get back 10/24ths of our processing time back which is about a 41% increase in performance. Rick Hulsey Southwest Airlines 2425 Wyman Mail Stop 4DC Dallas, Tx., 75235 rick.hulsey(a)wnco.com (214) 792-7188 Office (972) 880-6882 Cell (800) 915-3747 Pager >>> <rdobbins(a)netmore.net> 08/08/00 06:38PM >>> No account/password is required for *NIX access to the filer via NFS; that's all handled via the standard NFS permissions and *NIX filesystem permissions. As to running Oracle with the data and logfiles on a filer via NFS, I should think that even with a NetApp using Gigabit Ethernet, you'd take a -huge- performance hit as compared to a local disk array. I've no empirical data to back this up, mind you; it's just that there's so much overhead associated with NFS even on an optimized platform like the NetApp filer, I can't see it as being a win. If there's anyone out there with Oracle experience on filers via NFS, either pro or con, I'd love to hear from you. ----------------------------------------------------------- Roland Dobbins <rdobbins(a)netmore.net> // 818.535.5024 voice -----Original Message----- From: Jiang, Perry [mailto:Perry.Jiang@BMO.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2000 2:18 PM To: toasters Subject: NetApp questions Hi, there I have a question regarding NetApp Filer 740. Oracle account I am running a Solaris Oracle server, which is a NFS client of the NetApp Filer. Do I have to create an Oracle account on NetApp Filer and put the entry in /vol/vol0/etc/passwd? If yes, what the purpose of that? An on-line NetApp document, "Oracle for UNIX: Integrating with a NetApp Filer", stated that you need to create an Oracle account on Filer. However, according to the System Admin. Guide, /vol/vol0/etc/passwd is only for CIFS, not for NFS. You explaination is appreciated. Perr Jiang

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