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RE: user quota crashes filer
by Coartney, Paul 11 Aug '00

11 Aug '00

sysconfig -v It is at the top -----Original Message----- From: Jiang, Perry [mailto:Perry.Jiang@bmo.com] Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 7:36 AM To: 'Heller, Jeffrey'; Fairchild, Peter; Krishnan, Prabhakar Cc: toasters Subject: RE: user quota crashes filer Hi, What command can I use to check my filter's firmware version? After install the system files to upgrade, it won't erase my data on the filer, right? Thanks Perry Jiang -----Original Message----- From: Heller, Jeffrey [mailto:Jeffrey.Heller@netapp.com] Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 10:10 AM To: Fairchild, Peter; Heller, Jeffrey; Krishnan, Prabhakar; Jiang, Perry Cc: toasters Subject: RE: user quota crashes filer Floppy booting 5.3.6R2 and then downloading that release should solve the problem. Call customer service if you are having problems with the procedure. Once 5.3.6R2 is loaded you should have no problem turning quotas back on. Jeff > -----Original Message----- > From: Fairchild, Peter [mailto:Peter.Fairchild@netapp.com] > Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 6:42 AM > To: Heller, Jeffrey; Krishnan, Prabhakar; Jiang, Perry > Cc: toasters > Subject: RE: user quota crashes filer > > > That doesn't fully answer the question. > How does one deal with this problem *before* patching 5.3.6R2? > Does one have to nuke the filer to get quota functional again? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Heller, Jeffrey [mailto:Jeffrey.Heller@netapp.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2000 6:14 PM > To: Krishnan, Prabhakar; Jiang, Perry > Cc: toasters > Subject: RE: user quota crashes filer > > > This problem is fixed in 5.3.6R2 which is on NOW as of today. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Prabhakar Krishnan [mailto:kpkar@netapp.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2000 1:54 PM > To: Jiang, Perry > Cc: toasters > Subject: Re: user quota crashes filer > > > > this was a bug. > > - patch is availabe , contact the SE/CS > - fixed in the next release > > "Jiang, Perry" wrote: > > > Hi, > > I have a 740 filer with Data OnTAP 5.3.6 > > I put a quota entry for username "perry" into /vol/vol0/etc/quotas > > perry user 50M - > > > > But there is no entry for "perry" in /vol/vol0/etc/passwd, > so there is no > > UID for perry(No NIS running, of course). > > When I run "quota on vol0", the filer crashes. > > > > I have to boot up the filer from floppy disk, remove the > entry of "perry" in > > /vol/vol0/etc/quotas file, then reboot the filer. > > > > After the filter is up, everything is ok. However, I can't > enable quota > > anymore. Every time > > I run "quota on vol0", the filer would crash. > > > > The only thing I have in /vol/vol0/etc/quotas now is couple > of entries for > > Qtree quota. > > > > Can anybody explain when the filer still crashes after I > remove the "perry" > > entry? > > How can I make the quota work again? > > Do I have to rebuild the filer? > > > > Thanks > > > > Perry Jiang >

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RE: user quota crashes filer
by Jiang, Perry 11 Aug '00

11 Aug '00

Hi, What command can I use to check my filter's firmware version? After install the system files to upgrade, it won't erase my data on the filer, right? Thanks Perry Jiang -----Original Message----- From: Heller, Jeffrey [mailto:Jeffrey.Heller@netapp.com] Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 10:10 AM To: Fairchild, Peter; Heller, Jeffrey; Krishnan, Prabhakar; Jiang, Perry Cc: toasters Subject: RE: user quota crashes filer Floppy booting 5.3.6R2 and then downloading that release should solve the problem. Call customer service if you are having problems with the procedure. Once 5.3.6R2 is loaded you should have no problem turning quotas back on. Jeff > -----Original Message----- > From: Fairchild, Peter [mailto:Peter.Fairchild@netapp.com] > Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 6:42 AM > To: Heller, Jeffrey; Krishnan, Prabhakar; Jiang, Perry > Cc: toasters > Subject: RE: user quota crashes filer > > > That doesn't fully answer the question. > How does one deal with this problem *before* patching 5.3.6R2? > Does one have to nuke the filer to get quota functional again? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Heller, Jeffrey [mailto:Jeffrey.Heller@netapp.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2000 6:14 PM > To: Krishnan, Prabhakar; Jiang, Perry > Cc: toasters > Subject: RE: user quota crashes filer > > > This problem is fixed in 5.3.6R2 which is on NOW as of today. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Prabhakar Krishnan [mailto:kpkar@netapp.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2000 1:54 PM > To: Jiang, Perry > Cc: toasters > Subject: Re: user quota crashes filer > > > > this was a bug. > > - patch is availabe , contact the SE/CS > - fixed in the next release > > "Jiang, Perry" wrote: > > > Hi, > > I have a 740 filer with Data OnTAP 5.3.6 > > I put a quota entry for username "perry" into /vol/vol0/etc/quotas > > perry user 50M - > > > > But there is no entry for "perry" in /vol/vol0/etc/passwd, > so there is no > > UID for perry(No NIS running, of course). > > When I run "quota on vol0", the filer crashes. > > > > I have to boot up the filer from floppy disk, remove the > entry of "perry" in > > /vol/vol0/etc/quotas file, then reboot the filer. > > > > After the filter is up, everything is ok. However, I can't > enable quota > > anymore. Every time > > I run "quota on vol0", the filer would crash. > > > > The only thing I have in /vol/vol0/etc/quotas now is couple > of entries for > > Qtree quota. > > > > Can anybody explain when the filer still crashes after I > remove the "perry" > > entry? > > How can I make the quota work again? > > Do I have to rebuild the filer? > > > > Thanks > > > > Perry Jiang >

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Re: RE: Snapshots and Oracle
by Brian Hostetter 11 Aug '00

11 Aug '00

Treat the control files just as you would any other critical DB file. When you shut your DB down and snapshot it, make a backup copy of the control files also. Control files only change when you do structural changes to your database, and thus must be backed up only then. Of course that is best case, just incorporate control files into your normal backups. As for redo logs they do not nee to be backed up. In fact you really cannot use them for anything other than instance recovery when you have the database crash. If you do a clean shutdown there is no data in these redo's. It gets flushed to disk during the shutdown. I would also recommend not putting redo's on your netapp, it is just an incredible waste of I/O. Buy some cheap 4G drives and install them. If you multiplex your redo's you should not have to worry about disk failures. --Brian >>> X X <gynt(a)post.com> 08/11 3:42 AM >>> >1. Does a hot backup (as described on >http://www.netapp.com/tech_library/3049.html) present any >restoration problems? Has anyone done a restore from a hot >backup? How about handling of the control files? In other hot-backup schemes I have seen, there are a lot of stuff on how and when to do the "ALTER DATABASE BACKUP CONTROLFILE ... ..." command. Also also some stuff on "ALTER SYSTEM SWITCH LOGFILE" or "ARCHIVE LOG NEXT" None of these are mentioned in the above TechLibrary article. /Gynt ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup

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RE: user quota crashes filer
by Heller, Jeffrey 11 Aug '00

11 Aug '00

Floppy booting 5.3.6R2 and then downloading that release should solve the problem. Call customer service if you are having problems with the procedure. Once 5.3.6R2 is loaded you should have no problem turning quotas back on. Jeff > -----Original Message----- > From: Fairchild, Peter [mailto:Peter.Fairchild@netapp.com] > Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 6:42 AM > To: Heller, Jeffrey; Krishnan, Prabhakar; Jiang, Perry > Cc: toasters > Subject: RE: user quota crashes filer > > > That doesn't fully answer the question. > How does one deal with this problem *before* patching 5.3.6R2? > Does one have to nuke the filer to get quota functional again? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Heller, Jeffrey [mailto:Jeffrey.Heller@netapp.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2000 6:14 PM > To: Krishnan, Prabhakar; Jiang, Perry > Cc: toasters > Subject: RE: user quota crashes filer > > > This problem is fixed in 5.3.6R2 which is on NOW as of today. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Prabhakar Krishnan [mailto:kpkar@netapp.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2000 1:54 PM > To: Jiang, Perry > Cc: toasters > Subject: Re: user quota crashes filer > > > > this was a bug. > > - patch is availabe , contact the SE/CS > - fixed in the next release > > "Jiang, Perry" wrote: > > > Hi, > > I have a 740 filer with Data OnTAP 5.3.6 > > I put a quota entry for username "perry" into /vol/vol0/etc/quotas > > perry user 50M - > > > > But there is no entry for "perry" in /vol/vol0/etc/passwd, > so there is no > > UID for perry(No NIS running, of course). > > When I run "quota on vol0", the filer crashes. > > > > I have to boot up the filer from floppy disk, remove the > entry of "perry" in > > /vol/vol0/etc/quotas file, then reboot the filer. > > > > After the filter is up, everything is ok. However, I can't > enable quota > > anymore. Every time > > I run "quota on vol0", the filer would crash. > > > > The only thing I have in /vol/vol0/etc/quotas now is couple > of entries for > > Qtree quota. > > > > Can anybody explain when the filer still crashes after I > remove the "perry" > > entry? > > How can I make the quota work again? > > Do I have to rebuild the filer? > > > > Thanks > > > > Perry Jiang >

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RE: user quota crashes filer
by Fairchild, Peter 11 Aug '00

11 Aug '00

That doesn't fully answer the question. How does one deal with this problem *before* patching 5.3.6R2? Does one have to nuke the filer to get quota functional again? -----Original Message----- From: Heller, Jeffrey [mailto:Jeffrey.Heller@netapp.com] Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2000 6:14 PM To: Krishnan, Prabhakar; Jiang, Perry Cc: toasters Subject: RE: user quota crashes filer This problem is fixed in 5.3.6R2 which is on NOW as of today. -----Original Message----- From: Prabhakar Krishnan [mailto:kpkar@netapp.com] Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2000 1:54 PM To: Jiang, Perry Cc: toasters Subject: Re: user quota crashes filer this was a bug. - patch is availabe , contact the SE/CS - fixed in the next release "Jiang, Perry" wrote: > Hi, > I have a 740 filer with Data OnTAP 5.3.6 > I put a quota entry for username "perry" into /vol/vol0/etc/quotas > perry user 50M - > > But there is no entry for "perry" in /vol/vol0/etc/passwd, so there is no > UID for perry(No NIS running, of course). > When I run "quota on vol0", the filer crashes. > > I have to boot up the filer from floppy disk, remove the entry of "perry" in > /vol/vol0/etc/quotas file, then reboot the filer. > > After the filter is up, everything is ok. However, I can't enable quota > anymore. Every time > I run "quota on vol0", the filer would crash. > > The only thing I have in /vol/vol0/etc/quotas now is couple of entries for > Qtree quota. > > Can anybody explain when the filer still crashes after I remove the "perry" > entry? > How can I make the quota work again? > Do I have to rebuild the filer? > > Thanks > > Perry Jiang

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RE: Snapshots and Oracle
by X X 11 Aug '00

11 Aug '00

>1. Does a hot backup (as described on >http://www.netapp.com/tech_library/3049.html) present any >restoration problems? Has anyone done a restore from a hot >backup? How about handling of the control files? In other hot-backup schemes I have seen, there are a lot of stuff on how and when to do the "ALTER DATABASE BACKUP CONTROLFILE ... ..." command. Also also some stuff on "ALTER SYSTEM SWITCH LOGFILE" or "ARCHIVE LOG NEXT" None of these are mentioned in the above TechLibrary article. /Gynt ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup

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RE: Snapshots and Oracle
by X X 11 Aug '00

11 Aug '00

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RE: user quota crashes filer
by Heller, Jeffrey 11 Aug '00

11 Aug '00

This problem is fixed in 5.3.6R2 which is on NOW as of today. -----Original Message----- From: Prabhakar Krishnan [mailto:kpkar@netapp.com] Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2000 1:54 PM To: Jiang, Perry Cc: toasters Subject: Re: user quota crashes filer this was a bug. - patch is availabe , contact the SE/CS - fixed in the next release "Jiang, Perry" wrote: > Hi, > I have a 740 filer with Data OnTAP 5.3.6 > I put a quota entry for username "perry" into /vol/vol0/etc/quotas > perry user 50M - > > But there is no entry for "perry" in /vol/vol0/etc/passwd, so there is no > UID for perry(No NIS running, of course). > When I run "quota on vol0", the filer crashes. > > I have to boot up the filer from floppy disk, remove the entry of "perry" in > /vol/vol0/etc/quotas file, then reboot the filer. > > After the filter is up, everything is ok. However, I can't enable quota > anymore. Every time > I run "quota on vol0", the filer would crash. > > The only thing I have in /vol/vol0/etc/quotas now is couple of entries for > Qtree quota. > > Can anybody explain when the filer still crashes after I remove the "perry" > entry? > How can I make the quota work again? > Do I have to rebuild the filer? > > Thanks > > Perry Jiang

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user quota crashes filer
by Jiang, Perry 10 Aug '00

10 Aug '00

Hi, I have a 740 filer with Data OnTAP 5.3.6 I put a quota entry for username "perry" into /vol/vol0/etc/quotas perry user 50M - But there is no entry for "perry" in /vol/vol0/etc/passwd, so there is no UID for perry(No NIS running, of course). When I run "quota on vol0", the filer crashes. I have to boot up the filer from floppy disk, remove the entry of "perry" in /vol/vol0/etc/quotas file, then reboot the filer. After the filter is up, everything is ok. However, I can't enable quota anymore. Every time I run "quota on vol0", the filer would crash. The only thing I have in /vol/vol0/etc/quotas now is couple of entries for Qtree quota. Can anybody explain when the filer still crashes after I remove the "perry" entry? How can I make the quota work again? Do I have to rebuild the filer? Thanks Perry Jiang

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RE: Filer storage for databases, seriously? (Was: Re: NetApp ques tions)
by Agnew, Blaine 10 Aug '00

10 Aug '00

I have been hearing this question from a lot of technically astute clients lately. While I don't have all the answers, I can suggest at least one reason why the protocol overhead inherent in NFS and CIFS is not as big a disadvantage in practice as it appears to be in theory. The main point to consider is that the time it takes to get the head on a disk drive positioned over the data to be read is much, much greater than the time it takes to transfer the data. Lets take for example, the Seagate Barracuda 18 Gig drive. The average seek time is ~8 msec, and the average rotational latency is ~4 msec, so it will take on average 12 msec to position the head over the data of interest and start the operation. If the operation was to read in 4KB at a media-to-buffer rate of 20 MBytes/sec, it would be completed in ~0.2 msec, 2 orders of magnitude faster than the time it took to get into position. If your average system has a lot of processes, each doing I/O to different areas of the disk, you will spend on average 60x more time doing seeks than transferring data. Reducing this overhead clearly makes a much bigger difference to performance than increasing the bandwidth of the path from the host to the disk. While the average times give you the feel, the edge times are very interesting as well. The seek time for the same drive varies from ~1.5 msec to move a single track, to ~15 msec to move across the platter. Thus, there is an order of magnitude improvement possible if the filesystem was optimized to locate related data together. Our file system, WAFL, does just that. Other filesystems which put their metadata in a particular area of the disk are guaranteed to cause a lot of mechanical seeks under normal load. If you had just one single threaded application writing and reading large files to dedicated local storage, then the seek latency described above would not be a big issue. Most databases are not like that. In this environment the appropriate emphasis is to improve performance by reducing the effects of the mechanical latency involved in head seeks and rotational delays. That's what filers do, and that is one reason why they perform so well in spite of the overhead of NFS or CIFS. Blaine Agnew > -----Original Message----- > From: Pesce, Nicholas (FUSA) [mailto:Nicholaspesce@firstusa.com] > Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2000 11:34 AM > To: 'rdobbins(a)netmore.net'; keith(a)netapp.com > Cc: toasters(a)mathworks.com > Subject: RE: Filer storage for databases, seriously? (Was: Re: NetApp > ques tions) > > > I'm sorry Keith. But I've heard this argument before. NFS > versus Direct > attatch storage? I'm going to have to vote for a good direct attach > solution. Why? > > NFS and CIFS have huge overhead. > > > Also, I took a look at the link you provided. The information was > incomplete at best > > snip: > > .The following results were obtained with Bluecurve's Dynameasure SQL > Professional product. We were running MS SQL Server 6.5 on a > Dell 4200 with > two 200 Mhz Pentium Pro CPUs and 512 Mb of RAM. The local > disk was on a Dell > PowerEdge RAID adapter with 6 9Gb UltraSCSI disks. The filer > was an F630 > with 512 Mb of RAM, and 14 9Gb UltraSCSI disks. The Dell was > running RAID 0. > The Filer, needless to say, was running RAID 4. > > snip > > What were the speeds of the drives? The CPU information here > is important > but not compared to drive information. Also I'd like to point out that > writing to 3 disks (you are using raid 0 so the 6 disks are > now effectively > 3) spindles is most likely going to be slower than writing to > 14 spindles. > > Following the logic of this link. (ignoring obvious disk information > questions) Netapp would like me to believe that a machine running a > non-parity raid platform (mirroring) and having a low > protocol overhead > (scsi) is slower that a Network appliance running a parity > system (raid 4) > and running NFS or CIFS (I'm assuming it was CIFS because it > was a MS sequel > server, but I could be incorrect). > > I think I would like to see a test where the Disk sizes and > number were > similar, I sincerely doubt the Netapp would do as well. > > I believe that Network Appliances are solid machines that > perform their > functions effectively, but they are NOT a replacement for > direct attach > where speed is essential. > -----Original Message----- > From: rdobbins(a)netmore.net [mailto:rdobbins@netmore.net] > Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2000 8:47 PM > To: keith(a)netapp.com > Cc: toasters(a)mathworks.com > Subject: RE: Filer storage for databases, seriously? (Was: Re: NetApp > ques tions) > > > > No one thoughout recorded history, apart from assorted nuts, has ever > believed that the Earth was flat; Eratosthenes calculated both its > circumference to within 1% of the true value as well its tilt > relative to > the plane of the ecliptic no later than 200 B.C. The only > real problem was > that of terra incognita - i.e., nobody knew exactly where the > landmasses > were located until a) someone sailed there, and b) accurate > chronometers > were developed by John Harrison in the 18th Century, enabling > navigators to > calculate longitude with a high degree of accuracy, and then > relay that > information to cartographers. > > Advances in spherical geometry a la Mercator assisted the > latter group, of > course. > > Historical canards aside, let me restate that I'm very > interested in hearing > about production experience with NetApp filers and Oracle > over NFS. I've a > 740 with a Gigabit Ethernet interface, plugged into a > Catalyst 5509 doing > MPLS, and so would be willing to entertain the notion if > someone can give me > anything beyond benchmarks. > > I know all about snapshots and all that, by the bye. It's > -performance- > which is the question. > > Thanks for the pointer to the link, I'll be sure and check it out. > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Roland Dobbins <rdobbins(a)netmore.net> // 818.535.5024 voice > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Keith Brown [mailto:keith@netapp.com] > Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2000 5:48 PM > To: rdobbins(a)netmore.net; Perry.Jiang(a)bmo.com > Cc: toasters(a)mathworks.com > Subject: Filer storage for databases, seriously? (Was: Re: NetApp > questions) > > > > > As to running Oracle with the data and logfiles on a filer via NFS, > > I should think that even with a NetApp using Gigabit Ethernet, > > you'd take a -huge- performance hit as compared to a local > > disk array. > > Beware conventional wisdom Roland. People used to think the > Earth was flat > too. :-) > > While I wouldn't be so bold as to *guarantee* performance boosts in > utilizing the filer storage approach for every database > application under > the Sun, the simple fact is that filers contain a myriad of > features that > are very attractive to the database market, and NetApp now draws a > significant and growing portion of its revenues from this space. > > Snapshots & SnapRestore greatly simplify and enhance database > backup and > restore environs. The WAFL RAID design puts failure > resiliancy into the disk > subsystem without forcing you take the performance hits > inherent in general > purpose RAID-5 designs or going to disk-doubling RAID-1 approaches. > SnapMirror gives you database replication to offsite > locations for disaster > recovery purposes. WAFL's ready expandibility lets you make > room for growing > databases without disrupting their operation. The list goes on... > > Oh.. and yes... performance very often gets a shot in the arm too! > > > I've no empirical data > > to back this up, mind you; > > Don't worry. Nobody ever does, not even our direct-attach > competitors, not > that they can be too harshly criticized. Meaningful > performance comparisons > are tricky to architect, usually have a short shelf life, and > customers have > an understandable tendency not to believe vendor funded > benchmarks anyway > (due to the fact that the vendor performing and/or funding > the benchmark > almost always wins!). > > Nevertheless, we did publish a relatively innocuous one some > time ago, which > can be viewed here: > http://www.netapp.com/tech_library/3044.html > it's just that there's so much overhead > associated with NFS even on an optimized platform > like the NetApp filer, I can't see it as being a win. There are certainly some "swings-and-roundabouts"-type things to consider when looking at the two approaches, and some people do conclude that there is more overhead in the network attach approach, dismissing it offhand. However, as far as performance goes, all the theory in the world is no substitute for the practical experience that could be gained by trying a solution for the application you have and actually bearing witness to how well it works and what it performs like. > If there's anyone out there with Oracle experience on filers > via NFS, either pro or con, I'd love to hear from you. I'm hoping there will be some on this list. As I mentioned, beware conventional wisdom. America might have been discovered hundreds of years before Columbus sailed over the horizon, if only all his ancestors hadn't been terrified of falling off the edge of the world! Keith

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