toasters February 2000

toasters@lists.teaparty.net

102 participants
113 discussions

RE: Which spare 9 or 18 or 36
by Barrett,Eric 16 Feb '00

16 Feb '00

Yup. When a disk is removed from a RAID group, for whatever reason, the filer will use the smallest possible hot spare disk that it can. (It cannot, of course, reconstruct onto a disk that was smaller than the original.) If a hot spare of the same size isn't available, it will pick the next largest one. -- Eric Barrett, TSE, Network Appliance ebarrett(a)netapp.com / 408-822-4779 (office) NetApp Tech Support: 1-888-4NETAPP > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Harm [mailto:harm1@llnl.gov] > Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2000 3:24 PM > To: toasters(a)mathworks.com > Subject: Which spare 9 or 18 or 36 > > > Dear super informative list; > > Let's say there is a volume of 9 GB drives in a 760 > and another volume of 18 GB(or 36 GB). > Now I have a 9 GB spare and an 18 GB spare in the box also. > When a drive dies, does the box pick the spare of the same size > as the failed disk to rebuild? > > }}}===============>> LLNL > James E. Harm (Jim); jharm(a)llnl.gov > (925) 422-4018 Page: 423-7705x57152

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RE: Backing up a filer
by Kelly Wyatt 16 Feb '00

16 Feb '00

Hmmm... I just saw in the technote that Veritas NetBackup does not support that (a little table in that same technote indicates that)... I will be checking with Veritas on that because they know we plan to test this and have given no indication that this would not work. Kelly -- Kelly Wyatt, Kelly.Wyatt(a)SAS.com Systems Programmer Integrated Solutions Consulting SAS Institute Inc. / SAS Campus Drive / Cary, NC 27513 http://www.sas.com -----Original Message----- From: [ISS] Veritas-Users Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2000 9:54 AM To: 'Roth, William'; 'gwong(a)futureshop.com' Cc: 'toasters(a)mathworks.com' Subject: RE: Backing up a filer I understand that you can do NDMP dump across the network to a media server... it is even mentioned in technote 3066, section 4.3 (# 4 below): ---- The NDMP protocol specification allows the following backup configurations: 1. Local backup from a filer to a SCSI-attached tape device 2. Three-way backup from a filer via the network to another filer with a local tape device 3. Backup from a UNIX or Windows NT server via the network to a NetApp filer with a local tape device 4. Backup from a NetApp filer via the network to a UNIX or Windows NT backup server with a local tape device ---- We currently backup filers via dedicated directly attached tape drives (using Veritas NetBackup)... but, this is a costly solution because the tape drives are idle probably 75% of the time. We will be testing NDMP across a dedicated GB ethernet network in the near future. Even if we see some decrease in backup throughput, it will good if we can get those 20 dedicated DLT7000 tape drives in S'Tek 9710's doing more work for us... Is anyone already using a private network and NDMP to backup a filer? Kelly -- Kelly Wyatt, Kelly.Wyatt(a)SAS.com Systems Programmer Integrated Solutions Consulting SAS Institute Inc. / SAS Campus Drive / Cary, NC 27513 http://www.sas.com -----Original Message----- From: Roth, William [mailto:William.Roth@netapp.com] Sent: Friday, January 07, 2000 11:21 AM To: 'gwong(a)futureshop.com' Cc: 'toasters(a)mathworks.com' Subject: RE: Backing up a filer Greg, If you want to use NetBackup with NDMP to back up the filer, you need to have at least one direct attached tape drive connected to the filer(not considering a three way NDMP backup using two filers with a tape device direct connected to the remote filer). You can dedicate one or more drives from an existing library controlled by NetBackup, or you can attach a new/different library to the filer(yes, the filer does support a locally attached library). Either the NetBackup host (NDMP client) or the filer can be direct connected to the robotic portion of the library(assuming the library has individual scsi ports for the connection). In the end, NetBackup ends up controlling the library either way. If the robot is direct connected to the NetBackup host via scsi, NetBackup controls it. If the robot is connected to the filer via scsi, the NetBackup host sends scsi cdb's via NDMP to the robot through the filer, thus the robot is still controller by NetBackup. What other information or assistance do you require? Bill Roth Technical Marketing Engineer Network Appliance, Inc. 495 East Java Drive Sunnyvale, CA 94089 Telephone 408-822-3308 -----Original Message----- From: Greg Wong [mailto:gwong@futureshop.com] Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2000 11:45 AM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: Backing up a filer Hi all, I'm kind of new to the this filer business and I have a question about backing it up. We have an F720 on site that isn't doing much since we aren't backing it up. I need some options on how to do this. We currently back up our other systems vith Veritas Netbackup and a tape library. Now, my question(s) is if I want to use Veritas to back up the filer using NDMP, do I have to dedicate a drive on the remote tape library to the filer? Will the filer support a locally attached library, and if it does, does Veritas control the library or does the filer? Thanks for your help Greg

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RE: max file system size
by Jason Middlebrooks 16 Feb '00

16 Feb '00

So on a F760 I can have 56 32GB drives on one fibre loop? Is any performance lost here? Thanks Jason "Bond, Andrew" <abond(a)netapp.com> on 01/28/2000 09:48:33 AM To: Jason Middlebrooks/Datalink cc: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: RE: max file system size This question should really be addressed to your local NetApp sales person or SE, however: > Is the maximum storage per fibre loop still 464.4GB? No. The maximum storage per F760 is presently approx. 1.4TB raw disk space. This can be on one loop or more than one loop, in whatever config you require, subject to a maximum of 56 devices per loop. Regards, Andrew

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Which spare 9 or 18 or 36
by Jim Harm 15 Feb '00

15 Feb '00

Dear super informative list; Let's say there is a volume of 9 GB drives in a 760 and another volume of 18 GB(or 36 GB). Now I have a 9 GB spare and an 18 GB spare in the box also. When a drive dies, does the box pick the spare of the same size as the failed disk to rebuild? }}}===============>> LLNL James E. Harm (Jim); jharm(a)llnl.gov (925) 422-4018 Page: 423-7705x57152

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Re: Backing up a filer
by Steve Kappel 15 Feb '00

15 Feb '00

mark wrote: >> NetBackup NDMP does NOT use multiplexing. Also note that for NDMP >> the tape format is determined by the NDMP server vendor. > >NDMP uses dump format as well doesn't it? So all the propositions above >get a little messed around here anyhoo. No, NDMP is format neutral. NetApp's implementation of NDMP uses dump. tar is used by some others. __________________________________________________________________________ Steve Kappel steve.kappel(a)veritas.com VERITAS Software steve.kappel(a)iname.com (Personal)

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Re: Backing up a filer
by Steve Kappel 15 Feb '00

15 Feb '00

Eyal, >Are there any plans / ideas from Veritas on improving backup/restore times of >filers ? The only time NetBackup has a performance impact on backup is when there are a very large number of files in the backup (on the order of millions). Currently we get all the NDMP history in DIR & NODE messages which we then have to convert into full paths for our catalog. This can be CPU, RAM, and disk intensive. We are investigating options for how we might address this issue. As for restore time there isn't much we can do besides add support for 'direct access restore'. Sounds easy but it isn't. Even when NetApp supports it, it may not be what you want - it will have limitations. It is a hard thing to do with a dump-style backup. Because of the limitations and the NetBackup model, we may not be able to support it reliably. We always take the conservative approach of doing everything we can to make sure you get the correct data and any new optimizations have to be bullet-proof. In the end, all we can do is support what NDMP and each NDMP server implementation provides to us. >It seems that the tape/backup s/w is not keeping up well with the filers' huge >sizes ? I don't think it is just filers - the whole industry is seeing an explosion of data. Tape drives certainly haven't kept up with disk. Of course NetBackup has other features that are not available in the NDMP world simply because 1) we have raw access to the disk, and 2) we control the tape format. >What is the best configuration that can give us best performance ? From a NetBackup perspective the only thing you can do is try to keep the number of files per backup from getting very large. Trouble is that breaking a volume up into different backups has an impact on filer efficiency (unless you use quota trees). __________________________________________________________________________ Steve Kappel steve.kappel(a)veritas.com VERITAS Software steve.kappel(a)iname.com (Personal)

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Re: Backing up a filer
by Darrell Fuhriman 15 Feb '00

15 Feb '00

"Eyal Traitel" <eyal.traitel(a)motorola.com> writes: > Are there any plans / ideas from Veritas on improving > backup/restore times of filers ? In this case the issue is primarily the fact that Netapp continues to use dump, which is not the speediest way to recover files. (Being that it has to search the entire tape(s) to get even a single file.) Of course, Veritas has plenty of it's own problems (restore times being only one of them) -- don't get me started. > It seems that the tape/backup s/w is not keeping up well with > the filers' huge sizes ? No question. I've been continually making noises at Netapp to improve the way they do backups, but haven't heard of any movement. > What is the best configuration that can give us best performance ? Well, you could consider using legato and the netapp clientpak, though that requires you to do backups over the network, which is really sub-optimal. Given the current state of affairs at Legato Corporate, who knows what's going to happen in the future with the product. Restores should be dramatically faster though. I think ultimately, right now, the only thing you can do is use faster tape drives and/or smaller volumes, neither of which is really good solution. Darrell

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Re: Backing up a filer
by Steve Kappel 15 Feb '00

15 Feb '00

>> > supported. I liked the fact that both QR and Veritas used an ISO standard >> > tar format for the backup. This ruled Legato out early, since they use >> >> Hmmm, I suspect from what I've learned from Veritas and others, that >> you don't see tar format on the tapes used for the basic backups. The >> reasoning being that the backup software usually interleaves several >> streams of data from clients to ensure streaming onto tapes (to extend >> tape lifetimes as well as reduce the overall backup window). Cloning the >> tapes in some manner allows the backup software to reduce the chance of >> data loss AND also to rationalize the interleaving so you do get tape >> files with coherent tar format inside.. but some folks don't clone >> tapes, so they may well never get tar-readable tapes. > >My understanding of Budtool and Quick Restore was that you could pull tar >files off of the tape directly. Generally, the desire for this ability is: > >1) if the machine with the backup software goes down, you can still do >recoveries, and >2) you can restore to differing systems. > >I will grant that the Veritas solution of interleaving streams does sound >well thought out and probably more efficient, but from an admin's >perspective, you have to figure some day the worst will happen. Interleaving (multiplexing is the term in NetBackup) is optional in NetBackup. You can turn it off for any class. NetBackup NDMP does NOT use multiplexing. Also note that for NDMP the tape format is determined by the NDMP server vendor. __________________________________________________________________________ Steve Kappel steve.kappel(a)veritas.com VERITAS Software steve.kappel(a)iname.com (Personal)

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strange NT errors when copying a file
by Steve Bos 15 Feb '00

15 Feb '00

Has anyone experienced a "session was canceled" error before? When copying a file from a NT box to a 720, the file seems to be copying fine, then at the very end the "session was canceled" error pops up on the NT machine. The strange thing is the file seems to have copied, at least the file sizes are the same. This error doesn't exactly fill you with confidence that the copy went o.k. In the environment, it seems that some machines are more susceptible to this error than others. Has anyone ever run into this before? Thanks in advance... Steve -- Steve Bos steve(a)intervision.com InterVision Systems (408) 567-4223

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Re: AW: Backing up a filer
by Steve Kappel 15 Feb '00

15 Feb '00

>- Do you know, when Netbackup v3.4 will be released? It will be going beta in a few weeks. So probably a few months away. >- Backing up Files without ACL´s? >We also have many UNIX-Files and dont need the use of ACL´s. Is there a >possibility >to disable NDMP-Backup with ACLs? If possible, does this affect restore >times, because the acl´s on the end of the file are not needed. I'm not sure I understand the question. If you are wondering about turning off the backup of ACLs, I believe there is a NetApp NDMP environment variable that can do that. As far as I am aware this wouldn't affect the restore time - it still reads the entire image (I think). Someone from NetApp can correct me if I'm wrong. With NDMP the backup product just positions to the beginning and tells the NDMP server to start the restore. What happens after that is up to the NDMP server implementation. >- NDMP v3: >Are ther any real enhancements with this implementation and when will it be >released >with Veritas/Netapp? V3 adds some minor things to the protocol but that doesn't mean they are used by a given NDMP client. V3 is not in NetBackup 3.4. I can't tell you what is in the following release because the feature content hasn't been finalized (and maybe even then I can't say ;). V3 is in the pipeline but I wouldn't expect any functionality impact because of it. __________________________________________________________________________ Steve Kappel steve.kappel(a)veritas.com VERITAS Software steve.kappel(a)iname.com (Personal)

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toasters February 2000