toasters March 1998

toasters@lists.teaparty.net

48 participants
57 discussions

shares
by Tom Yates 27 Mar '98

27 Mar '98

what the largest number of any shares anyone's currently exporting from a toaster? are there performance penalties associated with too many shares, and at what point does that start? Tom Yates - Unix Chap - The Mathworks, Inc. - +1 (508) 647 7561 MAG#65061 DoD#0135 AMA#461546 1024/CFDFDE39 0C E7 46 60 BB 96 87 05 04 BD FB F8 BB 20 C1 8C

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Re: Data ONTAP 5.0 memory requirements
by David Power 27 Mar '98

27 Mar '98

I tried that, kingston went "netapp 630, duhhh". That was totaly unexpected from them. I've always had great support from them before. --- On Thu, 26 Mar 1998 17:04:48 -0800 (PST) Jaye Mathisen <mrcpu(a)cdsnet.net> wrote: > >Call Kingston, they had the NVRAM and RAM that Netapp used as I recall, >and it plugs in and works fine, and you don't have to get taken to the >cleaners. > >On Thu, 26 Mar 1998, David Power wrote: > >> Have you priced 630 memory lately? I was quoted $12,000 for a 32 meg >> nvram, 256 meg system ram upgrade. Thats not dropping to me. >> >> >> --- On Thu, 26 Mar 1998 17:30:52 +1100 Mike Bosch <mbosch(a)netapp.com> >> wrote: >> >> >Marc, >> > >> >As I recall, Cisco was requiring 64MB and recommending 128MB on most ISP >> >7500s over a year ago. Whatever......the point is that memory >> requirements >> >will continue to grow over time. >> > >> >The good news is that as more features have required more memory, the >> price >> >of memory has dropped at an even faster rate. >> > >> >MJB >> > >> > >> >At 22:21 25/03/98 -0500, Marc Nicholas wrote: >> >>On Thu, 26 Mar 1998, Mike Bosch wrote: >> >> >> >>> A Filer is generically much more like a router than a general purpose >> Unix >> >>> or NT box, but we still require much less space than Cisco's IOS, for >> >example. >> >> >> >>Excuse me? You require less memory than IOS? Did I suddently reappear >> in >> >>another universe where IOS requires 128mb to run? :-p >> >> >> >>You can even run a couple of full BGP views in a Cisco with 64mb -- and >> >>that's to compensate for Cisco's braindead table archietecture. >> >> >> >> >> >>-marc >> >> >> >>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >> >>Hippocampus OSD, Inc. "Industrial Strength Internet Solutions" >> >>vox://416.979.9000 fax://416.979.8223 http://www.hippocampus.net >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >------ >> > >> >Mike Bosch >> >Regional Manager >> >Network Appliance Australia - New Zealand >> > >> >Phone: 61-41-728-7345 >> >Email: mbosch(a)netapp.com >> > >> > >> >********************************************************************* >> > FAST SIMPLE RELIABLE MULTI-PROTOCOL >> >********************************************************************* >> > >> > >> >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >------ >> > >> > >> >> -----------------End of Original Message----------------- >> >> >> David Power >> V-P Operations >> Insync Internet Services Inc. >> >> >> > -----------------End of Original Message----------------- David Power V-P Operations Insync Internet Services Inc.

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Re: Data ONTAP 5.0 memory requirements
by Lewis Kirschner 27 Mar '98

27 Mar '98

Wrong!! Read-Cache and NVRAM different for F540 vs F630!! Yes... its true!!! Be careful !! ----- At 07:47 PM 3/26/1998 -0800, Jaye Mathisen wrote: > >Well, I would suspect it's the same as the 540 memory, which they list. > >Sometimes you have to try a few times, they have various quality levels >of sales people. > >The first time I wanted 540 memory, I found it on the web page, and >was reading her the part number and she was telling me it didn't exist. > >Called back, spoke to a different person, and no problem. > >On Thu, 26 Mar 1998, David Power wrote: > >> I tried that, kingston went "netapp 630, duhhh". That was totaly >> unexpected from them. I've always had great support from them before. >> >> >> --- On Thu, 26 Mar 1998 17:04:48 -0800 (PST) Jaye Mathisen >> <mrcpu(a)cdsnet.net> wrote: >> >> > >> >Call Kingston, they had the NVRAM and RAM that Netapp used as I recall, >> >and it plugs in and works fine, and you don't have to get taken to the >> >cleaners. >> > >> >On Thu, 26 Mar 1998, David Power wrote: >> > >> >> Have you priced 630 memory lately? I was quoted $12,000 for a 32 meg >> >> nvram, 256 meg system ram upgrade. Thats not dropping to me. >> >> >> >> >> >> --- On Thu, 26 Mar 1998 17:30:52 +1100 Mike Bosch <mbosch(a)netapp.com> >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >Marc, >> >> > >> >> >As I recall, Cisco was requiring 64MB and recommending 128MB on most >> ISP >> >> >7500s over a year ago. Whatever......the point is that memory >> >> requirements >> >> >will continue to grow over time. >> >> > >> >> >The good news is that as more features have required more memory, the >> >> >> price >> >> >of memory has dropped at an even faster rate. >> >> > >> >> >MJB >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >At 22:21 25/03/98 -0500, Marc Nicholas wrote: >> >> >>On Thu, 26 Mar 1998, Mike Bosch wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >>> A Filer is generically much more like a router than a general purpose >> >> Unix >> >> >>> or NT box, but we still require much less space than Cisco's IOS, for >> >> >example. >> >> >> >> >> >>Excuse me? You require less memory than IOS? Did I suddently reappear >> >> in >> >> >>another universe where IOS requires 128mb to run? :-p >> >> >> >> >> >>You can even run a couple of full BGP views in a Cisco with 64mb -- and >> >> >>that's to compensate for Cisco's braindead table archietecture. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>-marc >> >> >> >> >> >>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >> >> >>Hippocampus OSD, Inc. "Industrial Strength Internet Solutions" >> >> >>vox://416.979.9000 fax://416.979.8223 http://www.hippocampus.net >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >------ >> >> > >> >> >Mike Bosch >> >> >Regional Manager >> >> >Network Appliance Australia - New Zealand >> >> > >> >> >Phone: 61-41-728-7345 >> >> >Email: mbosch(a)netapp.com >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >********************************************************************* >> >> > FAST SIMPLE RELIABLE MULTI-PROTOCOL >> >> >********************************************************************* >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >------ >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >> -----------------End of Original Message----------------- >> >> >> >> >> >> David Power >> >> V-P Operations >> >> Insync Internet Services Inc. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> -----------------End of Original Message----------------- >> >> >> David Power >> V-P Operations >> Insync Internet Services Inc. >> >> >> > > > NETWORK APPLIANCE ====================================================================== FAST! SIMPLE! RELIABLE! MULTIPROTOCOL!! ********************************************************************** Lew Kirschner - Eastern Area Reseller Mgr Voice: 908 603 7330 Network Appliance FAX: 908 603 7795 120 Wood Ave Suite 300 email: lewisk(a)netapp.com Iselin, NJ 08830 http://www.netapp.com ********************************************************************** The Market Leader in Network Attached Storage for Multiprotocol Environments!

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Re: Data ONTAP 5.0 memory requirements
by sirbruce＠ix.netcom.com 27 Mar '98

27 Mar '98

On 03/26/98 13:45:12 you wrote: >>Exactly how were they "bad"? Did they not work when you added them, or >>did they work but you had to troubleshoot crashes that caused you to swap >>them out, etc.? Netapp does indeed do testing that catches bad SIMMs from >>the vendor, but it can't catch problems where the SIMM is damaged after >>testing in handling, or in shipping, or improperly inserted into the board. > > Failed to boot w/ the error, "Unsupported NVRAM size 5MB", after >placing the six new SIMMs in the NVRAM card. Did the memory shuffle >(got very annoyed because it doesn't report this error until close to >the end of the boot process) and narrowed the problem down to 2 SIMMs. >Then I proceeded to get really pissed (only allowed to do non-emergency >hardware maintenance on the filer Friday's after 19:30) because I spent >over an hour and ruined a Friday night to add 2MB of NVRAM. (F330's >support 2, 4, or 8 MB - not 6.) When I've seen this in the past, it's been due to improper insertion of the SIMMs into the board. But it could be the SIMMs were bad or even the slots on the board were bad. I assume you've gotten new SIMMs since then and they worked fine? >>Sometimes the time at which a SIMM will fail in the future is beyond their >>horizon of testing. It seems to me getting it straight from the vendor is > > How were these tested? I can only speak in general terms. To say they're just put in a memory tester would be incorrect; they get burned (or at least, they used to) just like the DRAM. >My filer didn't even acknowledge their >exictence. Granted, they could have been damaged during shipping... >Or, I could have zapped them when I opened the packaging while grounded >to our ESD bench... Maybe I don't know how to install SIMMs and just >always got lucky before... (Please excuse the sarcasm.) No need to be sarcastic. All of those are very possible, no offense intended to your consider memory installation skill. :) But surely they were tested at Netapp, so it seems like you can't "blame" them for a failure later. Is the chance of a failure later still large enough that Netapp's testing isn't worth it? Again, that's an individual choice. >>only going to increase your chances of failure, unless maybe there is a >>particular vendor with which Netapp has rarely encountered failures. > > I disagree. I'd prefer to go to a vendor with which _I_ have >rarely encountered failures. Well, that is mostly wordplay. Surely one person's experience is not as predictive as testing thousands of such SIMMs, but most people do develop such individual biases, especially if they get a couple of failures in a certain vendor in a row. The point of the sentence was simply that NVRAMs are tested and they do fail, so if you want to go with a vendor that isn't tested, it would seem your best choice would be one that historically had failed little in said testing. >>Does it justify increased price? Hard to say. Depends upon the atmosphere >>of the company/environment your in. If it's like many bosses I know, the >>increased price isn't worth it until a component fails, and then they get >>upset that you didn't get better quality. :) > > Increased price isn't a problem if you _do_ get better quality. We >paid a 600% mark up on parts that had to be shipped back and replaced >as soon as we tried to use them. That doesn't mean you don't get better quality. Without Netapp's testing, it's more probably that you would have gotten bad parts twice in a row. If you have multiple filers, you would generally see more bad SIMMs, etc. > I'm not saying NetApp is low quality. We've seen great uptime w/ >our F330 and keep asking for details on their HA system because we >think NetApp is a good bet. I just don't like the way they handle >memory and disk sales. This is more or less what I was getting at, too. Netapp does do quality testing, and I think that's better than no testing. Is it worth, assuming your figures, a 600% mark up? It seems many people on mailing list say it isn't. What about a 200% mark up? Bruce

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Re: Data ONTAP 5.0 memory requirements
by sirbruce＠ix.netcom.com 26 Mar '98

26 Mar '98

On 03/26/98 10:52:18 you wrote: > >In message <Chameleon.980326065754.dpower(a)blue.insync.net>, David Power writ >es: >>Have you priced 630 memory lately? I was quoted $12,000 for a 32 meg >>nvram, 256 meg system ram upgrade. Thats not dropping to me. > > We just paid NetApp $4000 to up the NVRAM on our F330 from 2MB to >8MB. That's over $650 for each 1MB SIMM! When I asked our Sales Rep >about the cost, I was quoted the "We do in house testing" line. Anyway, >two of the SIMMs we were sent were bad... Very disappointing. Exactly how were they "bad"? Did they not work when you added them, or did they work but you had to troubleshoot crashes that caused you to swap them out, etc.? Netapp does indeed do testing that catches bad SIMMs from the vendor, but it can't catch problems where the SIMM is damaged after testing in handling, or in shipping, or improperly inserted into the board. Sometimes the time at which a SIMM will fail in the future is beyond their horizon of testing. It seems to me getting it straight from the vendor is only going to increase your chances of failure, unless maybe there is a particular vendor with which Netapp has rarely encountered failures. Does it justify increased price? Hard to say. Depends upon the atmosphere of the company/environment your in. If it's like many bosses I know, the increased price isn't worth it until a component fails, and then they get upset that you didn't get better quality. :) Bruce

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Re: Data ONTAP 5.0 memory requirements
by Mike Bosch 26 Mar '98

26 Mar '98

Marc, As I recall, Cisco was requiring 64MB and recommending 128MB on most ISP 7500s over a year ago. Whatever......the point is that memory requirements will continue to grow over time. The good news is that as more features have required more memory, the price of memory has dropped at an even faster rate. MJB At 22:21 25/03/98 -0500, Marc Nicholas wrote: >On Thu, 26 Mar 1998, Mike Bosch wrote: > >> A Filer is generically much more like a router than a general purpose Unix >> or NT box, but we still require much less space than Cisco's IOS, for example. > >Excuse me? You require less memory than IOS? Did I suddently reappear in >another universe where IOS requires 128mb to run? :-p > >You can even run a couple of full BGP views in a Cisco with 64mb -- and >that's to compensate for Cisco's braindead table archietecture. > > >-marc > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Hippocampus OSD, Inc. "Industrial Strength Internet Solutions" >vox://416.979.9000 fax://416.979.8223 http://www.hippocampus.net > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ Mike Bosch Regional Manager Network Appliance Australia - New Zealand Phone: 61-41-728-7345 Email: mbosch(a)netapp.com ********************************************************************* FAST SIMPLE RELIABLE MULTI-PROTOCOL ********************************************************************* ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------

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Data ONTAP 5.0 memory requirements
by Brian Tao 26 Mar '98

26 Mar '98

[http://now.netapp.com/download/software/ontap/5.0/] > Software Download Instructions > > Important: Data ONTAP 5.0 requires 128MB of memory on the filer to run > properly. If you do not currently have 128MB of memory, contact our > Installed Base Group either by e-mail or by phone at 1-888-2NETAPP. Ouch. 128MB? Why is that? Will filers be sold with a minimum configuration of 128MB in the future? -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob(a)netcom.ca) "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't"

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new quota tools: netapp-qdiff and netapp-qformat
by Daniel Quinlan 25 Mar '98

25 Mar '98

I cleaned up two more small scripts of mine sufficiently that I don't mind showing them to other people. The first is "netapp-qdiff", which essentially subtracts one quota report from another, and shows you what changed between the two. It only works on NetApp 5.0 right now, but if 4.x capability is wanted, I'll consider trying to add it. The second is "netapp-qformat", which prints out the quota report in a format that my small brain can read. It lines things up, converts to MB, prints decimal fractions for small usages, and sorts by tree name and disk usage. It should work for both NetApp 4.x and 5.0. The two scripts can work together, so here's what the output of a netapp-qdiff piped through netapp-qformat might look like. It's a little wide, just like the 5.0 quota report format: M-Bytes Files Type ID Volume Tree Used Limit Used Limit Quota Specifier ----- -------- -------- -------- ------- ------- -------- -------- ----------------- tree 1 vol0 local 0 0 2 - /local tree 2 vol0 transmeta-ht 10 0 57 - /transmeta-htdocs user joe vol0 transmeta-ht 8 0 10 - user bob vol0 transmeta-ht 2 0 47 - user mary vol0 transmeta-ht 0.1 0 4 - user jill vol0 transmeta-ht 0.1 0 3 - user billy vol0 transmeta-ht 0 0 -1 - user pat vol0 transmeta-ht 0 0 -2 - Also, instead of continuing to post my scripts here, I stuck the last three at <URL:http://www.pathname.com/~quinlan/netapp/>. So, is anyone finding this stuff useful or does everyone here administer their filers from Windows? - Dan

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Re: splitting the load
by Daniel Quinlan 23 Mar '98

23 Mar '98

Tom Yates <madlists(a)mathworks.com> writes: > i'm planning to migrate about one-third of an existing F330's filespace > to another F330. what i want to do is move the most frequently accessed > third, so it has its own dedicated toaster. > > there are currently three file trees, each separately listed in exports, > each with its own CIFS share. is there any kind of monitoring tool i can > use to give me some idea of which of these three is the most heavily used? There is a program called nfswatch (a network snooper), but it only handles NFSv2 and may not have the information you want. If the traffic to each of the three file trees is used more by certain hosts, another method is to use the per-client statistics to make an educated guess. You could also monitor the turnover on each tree's filesystem - atime changes, mtime changes, etc. - Dan

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Re: NetApp Support
by sirbruce＠ix.netcom.com 23 Mar '98

23 Mar '98

On 03/23/98 10:28:58 you wrote: >When I've got a bug that's affecting my customers and the quality of >service I'm offering, I could care less if its been "sanitized" and >internal engineering comments / cuss words / etc has been removed - I >want the *info available*, or at least indication that the problem >*is* an acknowledged bug and NetApp is working on it, as *soon as >possible*. Not to be an apologist for Netapp, but I have seen other reasons offered from time to time. For example, internal bug reports can contain portions of source code or other proprietary facts about the internal workings of the filer, bugs that are mischaracterized (which could mislead the unsuspecting customer into thinking it is something else), or even disagreements between engineers over the nature of the bug involved. I think these sorts of things should be filtered. Furthermore, some bugs get discovered in internal testing that do not get immediately fixed at release. Someone would have to, at release, identify these bugs that still exist and move them into the "public", as it were. >NetApp, if you're going to keep a list of bugs on your web page, make >sure they're up-to-date, otherwise such info is useless. >I've made this request at least twice, and never heard anything of it. I agree. I'm sure Netapp agrees as well. Putting the manpower and expertise together to do that, however, is not as easy as it may seem on a first pass. >The other "minor annoying" problem I've seen with the Toasters: > >nfs> exit >Use control-D to exit >nfs> ^D >Connection closed by foreign host. > >Why not just use the code that is in the OS to print "Use control-D to exit" >to make the filer go ahead and exit? I got an answer to this when I first asked it during the 1.x days. :) You may have noticed by now that the filer doesn't really support multiple tty sessions. If you're on the console and someone else telnets in, you're really multiplexed off the same character stream. So when the command parser gets an "exit", it doesn't know which connection(s) it came from. The control-D, on the other hand, is caught higher up in the input driver. I suppose one could check to see if there is only one session. Or there may be a way to put together some code to determine where the command came from. But the real fix would be to support multiple concurrent sessions. With the emphasis on GUI and rsh and such in more recent releases, that feature may not even be on the roadmap anymore. Or, maybe it's in 5.x? Bruce

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toasters March 1998