Yesterday, I was at my health club working out and watching CNBC. Here is the CEO of Netapp talking about their last quarter and their product line. What struck me was his statement about the product (This is not an exact quote - but a good approximation.
Interviewer: So you don't have do things like upgrade the OS
NetApp CEO: No, our products are like a refrigerator, how often do you have to upgrade your refrigerator.
Could someone at NetApp sign up the CEO for NetApp 101: Data ONTAP System Administration - Multiprotocol. ;-)
JT
NetApp CEO: No, our products are like a refrigerator, how often do you have to upgrade your refrigerator.
Could someone at NetApp sign up the CEO for NetApp 101: Data ONTAP System Administration - Multiprotocol. ;-)
You should see some of the fridges people are putting in their homes around here these days.
NetApp CEO: No, our products are like a refrigerator, how often do you have to upgrade your refrigerator.
Could someone at NetApp sign up the CEO for NetApp 101: Data ONTAP System Administration - Multiprotocol. ;-)
You should see some of the fridges people are putting in their homes around here these days.
Can I get one with an automatic inode maker? :)
John Tatar wrote:
Yesterday, I was at my health club working out and watching CNBC. Here is the CEO of Netapp talking about their last quarter and their product line. What struck me was his statement about the product (This is not an exact quote - but a good approximation.
Interviewer: So you don't have do things like upgrade the OS
NetApp CEO: No, our products are like a refrigerator, how often do you have to upgrade your refrigerator.
So, what does that say for NetApp, if it's CEO is that clueless about his own product (I assume he wasn't intentionally *lying*, so what else *could* it have been, besides lack of clue)?
More often then not, when there is a problem with a filer, the suggested solution is inevitably to "upgrade to the blah-blah-[DPR]something release!". This guy has obviously never admin'd his own product.
Sigh.
-ste
/* Shaun T. Erickson [ste@research.bell-labs.com] writes: */
So, what does that say for NetApp, if it's CEO is that clueless about his own product (I assume he wasn't intentionally *lying*, so what else *could* it have been, besides lack of clue)?
I think he was just making a comparison by analogy that you do see the same way he does. I don't think that is clueless or indicates his lack of knowledge of his product.
More often then not, when there is a problem with a filer, the suggested solution is inevitably to "upgrade to the blah-blah-[DPR]something release!". This guy has obviously never admin'd his own product.
Oh come one now.... How many large companies like NetApp have CEO's that have actually admin'd their companies products? When was the last time you think Bill Gates installed Windows or even MS Office? Scott McNealy upgrading his own Solaris box? John Chambers configured a router? Heck, most of the time they have little or no technical background/experience in their companies [current] product line. Marketing. Sales. Suits and ties... thank goodness for start-ups!!
Mitch Wright wrote:
/* Shaun T. Erickson [ste@research.bell-labs.com] writes: */
So, what does that say for NetApp, if it's CEO is that clueless about his own product (I assume he wasn't intentionally *lying*, so what else *could* it have been, besides lack of clue)?
I think he was just making a comparison by analogy that you do see the same way he does. I don't think that is clueless or indicates his lack of knowledge of his product.
That's not how it sounds. He specifically said "no" when asked if you need to upgrade the OS, and went on to give an example of a system that really doesn't need upgrading after installation. That's simply not true of a NetApp.
More often then not, when there is a problem with a filer, the suggested solution is inevitably to "upgrade to the blah-blah-[DPR]something release!". This guy has obviously never admin'd his own product.
Oh come one now.... How many large companies like NetApp have CEO's that have actually admin'd their companies products? When was the last time you think Bill Gates installed Windows or even MS Office? Scott McNealy upgrading his own Solaris box? John Chambers configured a router? Heck, most of the time they have little or no technical background/experience in their companies [current] product line. Marketing. Sales. Suits and ties... thank goodness for start-ups!!
I know, and I don't seriously expect him to, either. But if he *had*, he'd know you have to upgrade them practically every time you turn around.
-ste
/* Shaun T. Erickson [ste@research.bell-labs.com] writes: */
That's not how it sounds. He specifically said "no" when asked if you need to upgrade the OS, and went on to give an example of a system that really doesn't need upgrading after installation. That's simply not true of a NetApp.
Correction... simply not true in your experience with a NetApp. Maybe I'm just lucky, maybe I just don't push my filers hard enough, but I've found little reason to upgrade. I had a filer running 4.3 until just about a month ago when we moved it's responsibilities to a new filer.
I know, and I don't seriously expect him to, either. But if he *had*, he'd know you have to upgrade them practically every time you turn around.
I've had to upgrade one of our new filers more often, but that is pretty much my own fault. I wanted some of the features of the pre-release version, so I guess I asked for that trouble. 5.3.2R1P1D1 is running well for me, though I'll probably upgrade when that tree becomes the official stable release.
Anyway... didn't mean for this thread to drag on...
On Thu, 18 Nov 1999, Shaun T. Erickson wrote:
That's not how it sounds. He specifically said "no" when asked if you need to upgrade the OS, and went on to give an example of a system that really doesn't need upgrading after installation. That's simply not true of a NetApp.
I think we're all happy that the invisible hand of Adam Smith once again spanked the spinners and send their stock tumbling 4.23% while the rest of NASDAQ roared. That's pretty embarassing.
Tom
I worked at Sun when installation of the OS was such a customer support load that Scott McNealy attempted his own install. After the fire died down, installation had become easy enough that Scott could have visitors do it themselves. I'm not saying he knew/knows how to administer one, but he could install/upgrade a generic Sun install.
In the immortal words of Kerry P. Boomsliter (kerry@com21.com):
I worked at Sun when installation of the OS was such a customer support load that Scott McNealy attempted his own install. After the fire died down, installation had become easy enough that Scott could have visitors do it themselves. I'm not saying he knew/knows how to administer one, but he could install/upgrade a generic Sun install.
Hmmph. Hence the SunRay, I guess. :)
-n
------------------------------------------------------------memory@blank.org Indeed, to many of us homefolks, the single greatest irony of the Clinton presidency has been the export of bare-knuckle, eye-gouging Arkansas political mud-rassling to an unexpectedly gullible national press corps. And we thought we were the hayseeds. (--Gene Lyons) http://www.blank.org/memory/------------------------------------------------
On Nov 18, "Shaun T. Erickson" ste@research.bell-labs.com wrote:
John Tatar wrote:
Yesterday, I was at my health club working out and watching CNBC. Here is the CEO of Netapp talking about their last quarter and their product line. What struck me was his statement about the product (This is not an exact quote - but a good approximation.
Interviewer: So you don't have do things like upgrade the OS
NetApp CEO: No, our products are like a refrigerator, how often do you have to upgrade your refrigerator.
So, what does that say for NetApp, if it's CEO is that clueless about his own product (I assume he wasn't intentionally *lying*, so what else *could* it have been, besides lack of clue)?
I wouldn't say Dan is clueless. I've had the opportunity to meet with Dan on a couple of occasions, and he is quite in touch with the aspects, both good and bad, about their product. He does know that some customers do have to upgrade their product from time to time, and sometimes for bug fixes. But the vast majority of the customers, once the system is up and running, they never have to upgrade. As a former customer (former, only because I left my old job at an ISP), I upgraded only once over the course of a year and a half. I had one filer that was up for over a year.
Beside, Dan was addressing stock analysts. Do you really think he's gonna say, "Oh yeah, we've got 5.3.2P3 about ready to ship." or "As a matter of fact, we've got DataONTAP 2000 shipping next week". Come on, think about the audience he's talking to. He's gonna give them the standard appliance speech, which will apply to most NetApp customers.
More often then not, when there is a problem with a filer, the suggested solution is inevitably to "upgrade to the blah-blah-[DPR]something release!". This guy has obviously never admin'd his own product.
He may have never admin'd his own product, but he has listened to those who have (me, for one).
Aaron
The intel boxes from netapp at our installation have never "needed" an OS upgrade. We upgraded them to get the official release of CIFS supported and debugged inclusion in the OS. I think we all hope that the alpha systems with FC will become stable enough to leave without change for months maybe years. I also believe that we expect this, and perhaps that is why we are so critical. I am glad to hear that the CEO expects this of his company's product, too.
At 10:35 AM -0500 11/19/99, Aaron M. Sims wrote:
On Nov 18, "Shaun T. Erickson" ste@research.bell-labs.com wrote:
John Tatar wrote:
Yesterday, I was at my health club working out and watching CNBC. Here is the CEO of Netapp talking about their last quarter and their product line. What struck me was his statement about the product (This is not an exact quote - but a good approximation.
Interviewer: So you don't have do things like upgrade the OS
NetApp CEO: No, our products are like a refrigerator, how often do you have to upgrade your refrigerator.
So, what does that say for NetApp, if it's CEO is that clueless about his own product (I assume he wasn't intentionally *lying*, so what else *could* it have been, besides lack of clue)?
I wouldn't say Dan is clueless. I've had the opportunity to meet with Dan on a couple of occasions, and he is quite in touch with the aspects, both good and bad, about their product. He does know that some customers do have to upgrade their product from time to time, and sometimes for bug fixes. But the vast majority of the customers, once the system is up and running, they never have to upgrade. As a former customer (former, only because I left my old job at an ISP), I upgraded only once over the course of a year and a half. I had one filer that was up for over a year.
Beside, Dan was addressing stock analysts. Do you really think he's gonna say, "Oh yeah, we've got 5.3.2P3 about ready to ship." or "As a matter of fact, we've got DataONTAP 2000 shipping next week". Come on, think about the audience he's talking to. He's gonna give them the standard appliance speech, which will apply to most NetApp customers.
More often then not, when there is a problem with a filer, the suggested solution is inevitably to "upgrade to the blah-blah-[DPR]something release!". This guy has obviously never admin'd his own product.
He may have never admin'd his own product, but he has listened to those who have (me, for one).
Aaron
Aaron M. Sims | "The reason why bad things happen to you is | because you're a dumbass!" ams@gtf.org | - Red Foreman, That 70s Show |
}}}===============>> LLNL James E. Harm (Jim); jharm@llnl.gov (925) 422-4018 Page: 423-7705x57152
After a 5 hour period yesterday upgrading the OS on an HP Series 800 server, which included loading software from 5 different CD's, installing so many patches that i lost count, rebuilding the kernel and rebooting three times (20 ^%@#$^% minutes each), I think it's fair to compare the difference between the platforms as "never having to upgrade the OS". Mainly because if you told someone it took 10 minutes work (on the high end) and 30 seconds of downtime (that most NFS clients don't even know happened) in order to upgrade the OS on a *major* file server, they would think you were totally full of shit. Remember, he's talking to people who's only experience upgrading an OS is probably the 3 or 4 times they've blown a weekend because Gateway technical support told them they had to reload Windows '95 in order to get their printer to work. ;-)
So, i guess even though it's not 100% accurate, what Dan said is certainly understandable, considering the audience.
Graham
On Fri, 19 Nov 1999, Graham C. Knight wrote:
After a 5 hour period yesterday upgrading the OS on an HP Series 800 server, which included loading software from 5 different CD's, installing so many patches that i lost count, rebuilding the kernel and rebooting three times (20 ^%@#$^% minutes each), I think it's fair to compare the difference between the platforms as "never having to upgrade the OS". Mainly because if you told someone it took 10 minutes work (on the high end) and 30 seconds of downtime (that most NFS clients don't even know happened) in order to upgrade the OS on a *major* file server, they would think you were totally full of shit.
Amen to that!! I was blown away when we upgraded our filers from 3.1 to 5.3.2R1 (a jump of 2 major changes) and it was the most painless thing in the world - took less then 5 minutes, most of which was verifing it was working well after the upgrade. The other admin and I just stood there looking at each other saying "that's it????" I've dealt with SGI and Sun upgrades and they are no small feat either (I'd usualy plan those for a weekend stint). The toaster upgrades were less painful then finding the upgrade on the web site.
---------------- Jay Orr Systems Administrator Fujitsu Nexion Inc. St. Louis, MO
On Fri, 19 Nov 1999, Jay Orr wrote:
Amen to that!! I was blown away when we upgraded our filers from 3.1 to 5.3.2R1 (a jump of 2 major changes) and it was the most painless thing in the world - took less then 5 minutes, most of which was verifing it was working well after the upgrade.
I don't think I would be straying far from truth if I said that our older NetApps behave pretty well. A reboot here and there once in a while, but for the most part pretty stable. However, the newer FC-AL boxes turn out to be nothing but trouble. I don't think we have a box which we have been operating for more than 4 months that did not necessitate a LRC or a disk replacement. On top of that a slew of failed fans and the inability to correctly takeover a failed system. If Dan was talking about the 330s and 500s then he was pretty accurate (Well one of our 500s gave out it's spirit two months or so ago), but the 600 and 700 series certainly do not live up to the refrigerator comparison. It seems that the more resilient a box is to be theoretically the more failure prone it is in practice.
Tom
/* John Tatar [tatar@dis.anl.gov] writes: */
Interviewer: So you don't have do things like upgrade the OS
NetApp CEO: No, our products are like a refrigerator, how often do you have to upgrade your refrigerator.
Could someone at NetApp sign up the CEO for NetApp 101: Data ONTAP System Administration - Multiprotocol. ;-)
I don't want to really get philosophical here, but do you *really* have to upgrade the OS? Once in production I only upgrade the OS when there are features we find worth the downtime. Maybe I've just been lucky with my filers.
yes, i've had bugs which required an ONTAP upgrade. in fact, i'm waiting on yet another OT version as we chat here :-P
-- michael
On Thu, Nov 18, Mitch Wright wrote:
/* John Tatar [tatar@dis.anl.gov] writes: */
Interviewer: So you don't have do things like upgrade the OS
NetApp CEO: No, our products are like a refrigerator, how often do you have to upgrade your refrigerator.
Could someone at NetApp sign up the CEO for NetApp 101: Data ONTAP System Administration - Multiprotocol. ;-)
I don't want to really get philosophical here, but do you *really* have to upgrade the OS? Once in production I only upgrade the OS when there are features we find worth the downtime. Maybe I've just been lucky with my filers.
/* mgx@spruce.lsd.ornl.gov [mgx@spruce.lsd.ornl.gov] writes: */
yes, i've had bugs which required an ONTAP upgrade. in fact, i'm waiting on yet another OT version as we chat here :-P
Me too... bug fixes (well, ones that effect me) are "features" worth the downtime. That's not to mention that the downtime to upgrade a filer is often as little as doing a reboot.
I've got a filer that has never had an OS upgrade and has been in service for about 3 years now. My fridge's light-bulb burned out faster than that. :-)
~mitch
#include "http://www.tradepub.com"
On Thu, Nov 18, Mitch Wright wrote:
/* John Tatar [tatar@dis.anl.gov] writes: */
Interviewer: So you don't have do things like upgrade the OS
NetApp CEO: No, our products are like a refrigerator, how often do you have to upgrade your refrigerator.
Could someone at NetApp sign up the CEO for NetApp 101: Data ONTAP System Administration - Multiprotocol. ;-)
I don't want to really get philosophical here, but do you *really* have to upgrade the OS? Once in production I only upgrade the OS when there are features we find worth the downtime. Maybe I've just been lucky with my filers.
Mitch Wright wrote:
... bug fixes (well, ones that effect me) are "features" worth the downtime. That's not to mention that the downtime to upgrade a filer is often as little as doing a reboot.
Upgrades to fix bugs usually happen after my filer crashes and causes downtime and (sometimes) data loss for my users. That's hardly a "feature".
I've got a filer that has never had an OS upgrade and has been in service for about 3 years now.
You must be blessed. I'm on my third filer and it's the first one I've had that actually went as long as *3* months before it had a problem (a crash that requires - guess what? - and upgrade to fix).
-ste
For the most reliable filer, find an old F330 with DOT 4.3. These suckers never die. The only feature added to DOT lately are bugs that need to be fixed in the next release. I am very cautious about upgrading the software. It takes more than someone on the phone telling me that "you better do it". I research the release myself and sometimes decide that this is not worth my while.
-gdg
"Shaun T. Erickson" wrote:
Mitch Wright wrote:
... bug fixes (well, ones that effect me) are "features" worth the downtime. That's not to mention that the downtime to upgrade a filer is often as little as doing a reboot.
Upgrades to fix bugs usually happen after my filer crashes and causes downtime and (sometimes) data loss for my users. That's hardly a "feature".
I've got a filer that has never had an OS upgrade and has been in service for about 3 years now.
You must be blessed. I'm on my third filer and it's the first one I've had that actually went as long as *3* months before it had a problem (a crash that requires - guess what? - and upgrade to fix).
-ste
On Thu, 18 Nov 1999, Mitch Wright wrote:
I don't want to really get philosophical here, but do you *really* have to upgrade the OS? Once in production I only upgrade the OS when there are features we find worth the downtime.
I agree with Mitch. Since uptime is really the only feature worth downtime, and it doesn't look like uptime will be implemented anytime soon, there is no point to upgrading the OS.
Tom
Yes, you HAVE.
Eyal.
Mitch Wright wrote:
/* John Tatar [tatar@dis.anl.gov] writes: */
Interviewer: So you don't have do things like upgrade the OS
NetApp CEO: No, our products are like a refrigerator, how often do you have to upgrade your refrigerator.
Could someone at NetApp sign up the CEO for NetApp 101: Data ONTAP System Administration - Multiprotocol. ;-)
I don't want to really get philosophical here, but do you *really* have to upgrade the OS? Once in production I only upgrade the OS when there are features we find worth the downtime. Maybe I've just been lucky with my filers.
-- do svidaniya,
~mitch
On Thu, 18 Nov 1999, John Tatar wrote:
|Yesterday, I was at my health club working out and watching CNBC. Here |is the CEO of Netapp talking about their last quarter and their product |line. What struck me was his statement about the product (This is not |an exact quote - but a good approximation. | |Interviewer: So you don't have do things like upgrade the OS | |NetApp CEO: No, our products are like a refrigerator, how often do you |have to upgrade your refrigerator. | |Could someone at NetApp sign up the CEO for NetApp 101: Data ONTAP |System Administration - Multiprotocol. ;-)
Or worse yet. We are being MANDATED by Netapp to pay to upgrade our Data Ontap to be Y2k compliant.
We are running 4.3.5D2 on several filers and are happy with it, yet now so our network doesn't CRASH due to Network Appliance being very short sighted and having < 24month old software not be Y2k compliant, we have to buy some very costly software upgrades.
Can someone in Netapp management please e-mail me privately on this issue?
The absurdity of this is boggling.
Jonah
Jonah Barron Yokubaitis http://www.texas.net <--- The ISP http://www.giganews.com <--- News Outsourcing
On Fri, 19 Nov 1999, Jonah Yokubaitis wrote:
|Or worse yet. We are being MANDATED by Netapp to pay to upgrade our |Data Ontap to be Y2k compliant. | |We are running 4.3.5D2 on several filers and are happy with it, yet |now so our network doesn't CRASH due to Network Appliance being very |short sighted and having < 24month old software not be Y2k compliant, |we have to buy some very costly software upgrades. | |Can someone in Netapp management please e-mail me privately on this |issue?
This issue has been completely resolved by Netapp. I am impressed that Netapp was able to put this issue to rest at the regional level.
Many thanks to Jeff Darter and Jim Hasbrouck resolving this issue for us.
Jonah
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Aaron M. Sims -
Eyal Traitel -
G D Geen -
Gordon Keegan -
Graham C. Knight -
Jay Orr -
Jim Davis -
Jim Harm -
John Tatar -
Jonah Yokubaitis -
Kerry P. Boomsliter -
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