Does NetApp have an official or unofficial "hobbyist" or "home user" program, for people who want to play with older systems at home in a non-production/non-profit environment, and cant afford a service contract?
I've acquired a FA520 with four v2 SCSI disk shelves (full of 9G drives) and a full spares kit.
The unit came with a NFS license, but no CIFS - and I'd like to experiment with CIFS on this unit without having to build a UNIX box and serve NFS via SAMBA.
I'm running OnTap 5.3.7.
I've tried to obtain NetApp OnTap software for my F330, but with no luck. I ended up with a copy of a netapp simulator for linux... Not exactly why I purchased my NetApp system.
I have had exellent service with both Sun, SGI, HP and Digital when it comes to lisencing for home use. But the NetApp system is not in any way linked to a software lisence as other systems are. Or vise versa actually..
So my filer is at ease in the basement as a way too large book-support. And I am still ignorant when it comes to NetApp's and Data OnTap software.
Perhaps EMC Symmetrix is an easier path to walk with home use and lisencing?
John Enger http://www.johnenger.com
John, I can appreciate your frustration "but" when a software company lets control go on their strategic intellectual property they effectively dilute if not destroy the value of the corporation. Shareholders would have a real problem with NetApp putting their software in basically the public domain.
Some corporations license their software to home users as an additional revenue stream. This is because so many non-legal copies are out there already and LINUX based substitutes are going after the same low dollars.
What would happen if the software ended up running on every PC that was a wanna-be file server? I guess that would be RIP for SAK though. Can any software company effectively control it's usage and distribution once that has happened? Microsoft has a tough time and they are ~40 times larger.
I think Netapp needs to build or license to have built a consumer product. Then turn it over to a company capable of supporting it in an install base of millions. Put it on your Tivo box, MP3 storage, even data..... for the who house, school, etc. Would you pay $300 to $500 for a box you could slam IDE drives into?
I don't blame you for being upset. An F330 is a significantly better file server than any GP computer.
Hunter M. Wylie 21193 French Prairie Rd Suite 100 St. Paul, Oregon 97137-9722 Bus: 866-367-8900 FAX: 503-633-8901 Cell: 503-880-1947
-----Original Message----- From: owner-toasters@mathworks.com [mailto:owner-toasters@mathworks.com] On Behalf Of John Enger Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 12:50 PM To: toasters@mathworks.com Subject: Fwd: "hobbyist" licenses?
Does NetApp have an official or unofficial "hobbyist" or "home user" program, for people who want to play with older systems at home in a non-production/non-profit environment, and cant afford a service
contract?
I've acquired a FA520 with four v2 SCSI disk shelves (full of 9G
drives) and
a full spares kit.
The unit came with a NFS license, but no CIFS - and I'd like to
experiment
with CIFS on this unit without having to build a UNIX box and serve NFS
via
SAMBA.
I'm running OnTap 5.3.7.
I've tried to obtain NetApp OnTap software for my F330, but with no luck. I ended up with a copy of a netapp simulator for linux... Not exactly why I purchased my NetApp system.
I have had exellent service with both Sun, SGI, HP and Digital when it comes to lisencing for home use. But the NetApp system is not in any way linked to a software lisence as other systems are. Or vise versa actually..
So my filer is at ease in the basement as a way too large book-support. And I am still ignorant when it comes to NetApp's and Data OnTap software.
Perhaps EMC Symmetrix is an easier path to walk with home use and lisencing?
John Enger http://www.johnenger.com
At 16:33 05.05.2003 -0700, Hunter Wylie wrote:
John, I can appreciate your frustration "but" when a software company lets control go on their strategic intellectual property they effectively dilute if not destroy the value of the corporation. Shareholders would have a real problem with NetApp putting their software in basically the public domain.
We are not talking Public Domain! I have bought a hardware unit, most other companies have a database of their units sold, and with what software. The thing is that NetApp does not. I'm critisising the lisencing system NetApp uses. It makes it totally impossible to learn proper NetApp without paying an arm and a leg for courses.
Some corporations license their software to home users as an additional revenue stream. This is because so many non-legal copies are out there already and LINUX based substitutes are going after the same low dollars.
But it's not NetApp... And stopping Piracy like this is also stopping popularity, and knowledge about the product.
What would happen if the software ended up running on every PC that was a wanna-be file server? I guess that would be RIP for SAK though. Can any software company effectively control it's usage and distribution once that has happened? Microsoft has a tough time and they are ~40 times larger.
So the software can run on any off the shelf PC? And comparing to microsoft.. It's still good business being Bill Gates... I'd take his place any day, nomatter how much wintendo is pirated... It's still big business..
I think Netapp needs to build or license to have built a consumer product. Then turn it over to a company capable of supporting it in an install base of millions. Put it on your Tivo box, MP3 storage, even data..... for the who house, school, etc. Would you pay $300 to $500 for a box you could slam IDE drives into?
I dont want IDE, I have a NetApp F330 filer. As far as I know it handles SCSI..
I don't blame you for being upset. An F330 is a significantly better file server than any GP computer.
The case is this:
I have a BUNCH of hardware obtained second hand either defective or in order. For all these units, I have been able to get the software the hardware was originally shipped with. This is because the software is linked to one specific piece of hardware. I asumed that the situation was similar to other purchases I have made when I bought the filer. I'd have to admit that the disappointment was MAJOR, when the box is not able to do anyting remotely useful.
I was offered a license for roughly 100 times what I paid for the hardware... Tough luck...
John
On May 06, John Enger wrote:
At 16:33 05.05.2003 -0700, Hunter Wylie wrote:
John, I can appreciate your frustration "but" when a software company lets control go on their strategic intellectual property they effectively dilute if not destroy the value of the corporation. Shareholders would have a real problem with NetApp putting their software in basically the public domain.
We are not talking Public Domain! I have bought a hardware unit, most other companies have a database of their units sold, and with what software. The thing is that NetApp does not. I'm critisising the lisencing system NetApp uses. It makes it totally impossible to learn proper NetApp without paying an arm and a leg for courses.
I agree with John: I don't see a piracy issue here. We've got 50,000 systems out there already, and I don't see why home users would be more likely to try to steal something than the people who already have access to those 50,000 systems. Plus we've got the Data ONTAP simulator which we are letting lots of folks have.
This isn't a case of us having carefully thought through the issue and made a decision to handle home users this way. It's just that there has never been much demand for our systems from home users, and we've never really thought about it at all.
I love the idea of people buying old equipment for home so that they can play with things without worrying about taking down production environments. (Same reason I love the ONTAP simulator.)
I've asked the product marketing folks to take a look at this. I don't know how our license database works, but it seems to me that even if we don't know all the add-on licenses that have been purchased, we could at least figure out how to let a home user have access to a base ONTAP release approrpiate for the system. I'm sure there are legal and operational issues, so no promises, but if other companies have figured this out, it seems like we ought to be able to.
Dave Hitz EVP Engineering and Co-Founder Network Appliance
At 09:50 06.05.2003 -0700, Dave Hitz wrote:
On May 06, John Enger wrote:
We are not talking Public Domain! I have bought a hardware unit. Most other companies have a database of their units sold, and with what software. The thing is that NetApp does not. I'm critisising the lisencing system NetApp uses. It makes it totally impossible to learn proper NetApp without paying an arm and a leg for courses.
I agree with John: I don't see a piracy issue here. We've got 50,000 systems out there already, and I don't see why home users would be more likely to try to steal something than the people who already have access to those 50,000 systems. Plus we've got the Data ONTAP simulator which we are letting lots of folks have.
This isn't a case of us having carefully thought through the issue and made a decision to handle home users this way. It's just that there has never been much demand for our systems from home users, and we've never really thought about it at all.
-->-<-- Snip (actually, lots of Snip)
Dave, I am so pleased to hear this, and your effort is very much appreciated. I am sure not only by me, but by a lot of people. And I am pretty sure that your efforts will pay off in terms of more people knowing about your products.
I have seen the NetApp filers run, and spoken to a couple of other admins, and they keep praising your products. That was why I bought mine in the first place...
Thank you
John Enger
On Tue, May 06, 2003 at 09:50:50AM -0700, Dave Hitz wrote:
I've asked the product marketing folks to take a look at this. I don't know how our license database works, but it seems to me that even if we don't know all the add-on licenses that have been purchased, we could at least figure out how to let a home user have access to a base ONTAP release approrpiate for the system. I'm sure there are legal and operational issues, so no promises, but if other companies have figured this out, it seems like we ought to be able to.
Rock on!
I look forward to this if it can be done.
Three tier system might be cool if possible:
Home user/hobbyist (new/supported and not new/supported) Non-profit reuse (new/supported and not new/supported) Commercial (relicensing via realistic pricing, new/supported)
So each tier has 2 items in it.
I would *love* to be able to get a netapp at home...our old F210 is just about out of production and I am taking it home. It isn't fast, it doesn't have a lot of disk (single shelf, 4GB drives) but wow, it is reliable...
On Mon, May 05, 2003 at 04:33:20PM -0700, Hunter Wylie wrote:
Shareholders would have a real problem with NetApp putting their software in basically the public domain.
I think it would be possible to have a "home user" or "noncommercial" license program for people who have obtained filers second-hand, and only want a working (and legal) OnTAP license, with no support contract.
Some corporations license their software to home users as an additional revenue stream. This is because so many non-legal copies are out there already and LINUX based substitutes are going after the same low dollars.
You *really* think that that's why HP/Compaq and Sun have the Tru64 Hobbyist, OpenVMS Hobbyist, and Free Solaris programs? I'd say its's because these companies have realized that if a person can obtain a license to legally work with their software/hardware at home, they're more likely to want to use the same hardware/software at work, and therefore possibly produce a revenue stream that way.
It *is* possible to have a free or reduced-cost licensing program for older, obsolete versions of a software product that is no longer being actively marketed, without putting the product into "basically the public domain". Hobbyist users can have license agreements too.
What would happen if the software ended up running on every PC that was a wanna-be file server?
That's the thing - OnTap *does not* run on "every PC that was a wanna-be file server". It runs on specific NetApp hardware. Sure, the F85/F87 are just slightly-changed Dell boxes (AFAIK), but I don't know that it is possible to take OnTAP for those machines and run it on "generic" hardware.
I can see both sides of the argument - but I think that NetApp really needs to have a program where owners of older, end-of-lifed (but still perfectly usable) hardware can legally obtain a license for whatever the last verison of OnTap was for their product, as long as they agree to use it in a home/hobbyist role only and understand that it does not come with service or support.
I've got a nice 520 system with four drive shelves. It's sitting in my living room right now, until I rack it up and configure it in a couple of days. I've got NFS licenses that will work on it with OnTAP 5.3.7R3, but it would be nice to have fully legal licenses for playing around with at home, instead of knowing that I can't officially use the license code that came with the machine from its original owner.
I'm thrilled to finally have a working setup at home, but would love to be fully licensed for what I've got. As someone mentioned in an email to me earlier today, "NetApp's probably got you on their radar" after I asked about hobbyist licensing. Sure! If someone from NetApp wants to contact me and help figure out how I can get a legal license for OnTAP that they don't want $10K for, or work out details of a hobbyist/home-experimental-user licensing program, please do!
Anybody interested in a toasters-at-home or older-toasters mailing list? I'm willing to host and maintain it.
Bill
On Tue, 6 May 2003, Bill Bradford wrote:
Anybody interested in a toasters-at-home or older-toasters mailing list? I'm willing to host and maintain it.
I'd join, although it'd probably be a pretty low-volume list. Once you have the working licenses, the thing just runs and runs, assuming the power stays on...
toaster> uptime 9:10am up 125 days, 17:52 1890000 NFS ops, 211939 CIFS ops, 0 HTTP ops
It's so cool having one unified home directory and shared /usr/local trees for >20 NFS-capable systems at home. :-) (Now, to have enough power to plug them all in at once...)
-- Chris
-- Chris Lamb, Unix Guy SelectMetrics, Inc. 503-241-1469 x247 skeezics@selectmetrics.com
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Bill Bradford -
Chris Lamb -
Dave Hitz -
Hunter Wylie -
John Enger -
Mike Horwath