Ken, I know how you feel. I am in the same boat with the Netapp 840. We where about to migrate 150 DB's from SQL and oracle. I hope my email did not scare you to much. I know people are running SQL with success. Others are not. I wanted to explain what I learned so Netapp could understand why I am worried. It was not meant to freak out others. I would test and test and test and test to be Damn sure you do not have the problems we did.
C
"Bunce, Ken" KBunce@JunoLtg.com 10/5/2001 8:55:02 AM >>>
Reading e-mails like one from Clark is really making me nervous, I just convinced my corporation to migrate our SQL 7.0 database to a F840 based on assurances from Sandy and our local representatives from NetApp of MS support for SQL in a NAS environment.
I, too, have gotten my email from NetApp regarding signing a NDA. Quit worrying about protecting your tails and give us an honest answer.
Ken Bunce -----Original Message----- From: Clark Turner To: toasters@mathworks.com; sandra.lake@netapp.com Sent: 10/5/01 10:25 AM Subject: Re: NetApp response on Microsoft Support for SQL Server and Exchange
Thanks for the information Sandy. I just read the QB article 5 times. Towards the end of the article is states:
Limited support is extended to only the SQL server application and DOES NOT extend to any issues that may occur as a result of the use of non windows Logo qualified products:
EMC Clariion server Network Appliance Filers (specifically the Netapp F760 and F800)
Nowhere in the article does it say that NAS is supported on The Netapp products. There is a line stating "limited" support for NAS devices. "Limited" is not a good enough reason for me to put my Job on the line running SQL on this 840.
Here is another quote:
"Microsoft generally recommends that you store Database files either on local disk subsystems or on storage area networks (SAN)."
That's the one that grabs my attention. Add the lines about data corruption and I am scared.
Then add in a posts that passed through this list:
"It is confirmed from our Microsoft Rep. that they will not support SQL or Exchange on NAS. But it is supported on SAN. We are moving our SQL databases and exchange from NAS to a SAN. Leaving the F740 to do file services at a rather expensive cost."
and
"We have also noticed that some of the databases have gone suspect when there was a hiccup on the comm side. You know as well as I that's not acceptable. In some instances the databases that went suspect could not be recovered and had to be restored from a SQL backup."
After all of this I thought I would test our loaner 840 out. I took a copy of a production database that was 5 gig in size and then inserted 34 million records into it. First I ran this on local Raid 5 on a Compaq DL580. It took about 10 hours. Then I offloaded a fresh copy of the database to the 840 and ran the test again. To our amazement the netapp database was missing records. It failed to write the records down to disk. Just as the above quote states and just as the MS article warns. A single missing record means that my database us useless. I was never able to fix the problem in a week of solid testing. Then a Netapp employee sent me email talking about me signing a non disclosure statement before Netapp would discuss the issue really made me step back and think.
I think our data is to important to chance. I know some people are doing this but the events in the last week have told me that its just not safe.I need a solution that is GUARANTEED and officially supported by Microsoft.
CT
"Lake, Sandy" sandra.lake@netapp.com 10/4/2001 6:12:51 PM >>>
Network Appliance has more than 200 customers using filers with SQL Server 6.5, 7.0, or 2000 with databases ranging up to 800 GB. Microsoft has published knowledge base article Q304261 on the Microsoft Web site, which states support of their SQL Server product when used with Network Appliance F760 or F800 series products. The article can be found at:
http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/q304/2/61.asp?id=Q30426 1
The Microsoft rep in the field may not be aware of this knowledge base article. Customers will receive SQL Server support from Microsoft Product Support Services when they log a call.
Network Appliance hosts 1.1 million Exchange seats at more than 200 large Exchange accounts. Network Appliance is the primary provider of support for SnapManager and filers deployed in Exchange 5.5 or Exchange 2000 environments. When the Exchange log file and store are located on filers and the customer experiences any problems getting to their data, a support call would be opened with Network Appliance. Microsoft has published knowledge base article Q237767, which covers offline and snapshot backups in Exchange environments. That article can be found at http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/q237/7/67.asp?id=Q23776 7
Working with the customer, Network Appliance will determine if the root cause of the call is with SnapManager, filers, Exchange 5.5 or Exchange 2000. If the root cause is unrelated to NetApp products, IBM Global Services (IBMGS), NetApp's certified support partner for Exchange, is brought into the call to assist us. Network Appliance, IBMGS, and the customer work together to close the call to the customer's satisfaction. The customer's support agreement would be contracted through NetApp. There is no additional charge to the customer for the Exchange expertise provided by IBMGS. Network Appliance offers customers several service agreement levels that can be tailored to meet their specific support requirements.
Network Appliance offers many solutions that protect and enhance a customers investment in the Microsoft platform, however this is not the appropriate forum for that discussion. If you need or would like more details about information in this email, please contact your local sales rep.
------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------
Sandy Lake Director, Microsoft Alliances Network Appliance
<<InterScan_Disclaimer.txt>>
Hello,
What you need to consider is why you bought the filer or for what reason the filer is being considered in the first place. There was probably some Value provided by Netapp.
As for defined support: It is interesting based on docs, MS support is in question in these environments, exspecially when other DB vendors support there product in a MS environment with Filers. You should start to question what MS is really supporting - their File System. A typical MS exchange outage in a Supported MS environment is several+ hours and could be days. Remember this is a MS product corruption and happens in a MS supported environment. Then what do you tell you upper management. In a Netapp environment that can be reduced to minutes+.
If you really understand what Filers bring to your infrastructure and environment you should not be questioning Network Appliance but Microsoft. It is about time MS really started to understand what reliability, uptime, security and scalability are, not to mention a bunch of other verbs.
On a different subject - what about the gaping holes in MS OS and app security? What does management think of that? Oh yeah - download another SP and reboot.
Have a good day,
Jack
On Fri, 05 Oct 2001, Clark Turner wrote:
Ken, I know how you feel. I am in the same boat with the Netapp 840. We where about to migrate 150 DB's from SQL and oracle. I hope my email did not scare you to much. I know people are running SQL with success. Others are not. I wanted to explain what I learned so Netapp could understand why I am worried. It was not meant to freak out others. I would test and test and test and test to be Damn sure you do not have the problems we did.
C
"Bunce, Ken" KBunce@JunoLtg.com 10/5/2001 8:55:02 AM >>>
Reading e-mails like one from Clark is really making me nervous, I just convinced my corporation to migrate our SQL 7.0 database to a F840 based on assurances from Sandy and our local representatives from NetApp of MS support for SQL in a NAS environment.
I, too, have gotten my email from NetApp regarding signing a NDA. Quit worrying about protecting your tails and give us an honest answer.
Ken Bunce -----Original Message----- From: Clark Turner To: toasters@mathworks.com; sandra.lake@netapp.com Sent: 10/5/01 10:25 AM Subject: Re: NetApp response on Microsoft Support for SQL Server and Exchange
Thanks for the information Sandy. I just read the QB article 5 times. Towards the end of the article is states:
Limited support is extended to only the SQL server application and DOES NOT extend to any issues that may occur as a result of the use of non windows Logo qualified products:
EMC Clariion server Network Appliance Filers (specifically the Netapp F760 and F800)
Nowhere in the article does it say that NAS is supported on The Netapp products. There is a line stating "limited" support for NAS devices. "Limited" is not a good enough reason for me to put my Job on the line running SQL on this 840.
Here is another quote:
"Microsoft generally recommends that you store Database files either on local disk subsystems or on storage area networks (SAN)."
That's the one that grabs my attention. Add the lines about data corruption and I am scared.
Then add in a posts that passed through this list:
"It is confirmed from our Microsoft Rep. that they will not support SQL or Exchange on NAS. But it is supported on SAN. We are moving our SQL databases and exchange from NAS to a SAN. Leaving the F740 to do file services at a rather expensive cost."
and
"We have also noticed that some of the databases have gone suspect when there was a hiccup on the comm side. You know as well as I that's not acceptable. In some instances the databases that went suspect could not be recovered and had to be restored from a SQL backup."
After all of this I thought I would test our loaner 840 out. I took a copy of a production database that was 5 gig in size and then inserted 34 million records into it. First I ran this on local Raid 5 on a Compaq DL580. It took about 10 hours. Then I offloaded a fresh copy of the database to the 840 and ran the test again. To our amazement the netapp database was missing records. It failed to write the records down to disk. Just as the above quote states and just as the MS article warns. A single missing record means that my database us useless. I was never able to fix the problem in a week of solid testing. Then a Netapp employee sent me email talking about me signing a non disclosure statement before Netapp would discuss the issue really made me step back and think.
I think our data is to important to chance. I know some people are doing this but the events in the last week have told me that its just not safe.I need a solution that is GUARANTEED and officially supported by Microsoft.
CT
"Lake, Sandy" sandra.lake@netapp.com 10/4/2001 6:12:51 PM >>>
Network Appliance has more than 200 customers using filers with SQL Server 6.5, 7.0, or 2000 with databases ranging up to 800 GB. Microsoft has published knowledge base article Q304261 on the Microsoft Web site, which states support of their SQL Server product when used with Network Appliance F760 or F800 series products. The article can be found at:
http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/q304/2/61.asp?id=Q30426 1
The Microsoft rep in the field may not be aware of this knowledge base article. Customers will receive SQL Server support from Microsoft Product Support Services when they log a call.
Network Appliance hosts 1.1 million Exchange seats at more than 200 large Exchange accounts. Network Appliance is the primary provider of support for SnapManager and filers deployed in Exchange 5.5 or Exchange 2000 environments. When the Exchange log file and store are located on filers and the customer experiences any problems getting to their data, a support call would be opened with Network Appliance. Microsoft has published knowledge base article Q237767, which covers offline and snapshot backups in Exchange environments. That article can be found at http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/q237/7/67.asp?id=Q23776 7
Working with the customer, Network Appliance will determine if the root cause of the call is with SnapManager, filers, Exchange 5.5 or Exchange 2000. If the root cause is unrelated to NetApp products, IBM Global Services (IBMGS), NetApp's certified support partner for Exchange, is brought into the call to assist us. Network Appliance, IBMGS, and the customer work together to close the call to the customer's satisfaction. The customer's support agreement would be contracted through NetApp. There is no additional charge to the customer for the Exchange expertise provided by IBMGS. Network Appliance offers customers several service agreement levels that can be tailored to meet their specific support requirements.
Network Appliance offers many solutions that protect and enhance a customers investment in the Microsoft platform, however this is not the appropriate forum for that discussion. If you need or would like more details about information in this email, please contact your local sales rep.
Sandy Lake Director, Microsoft Alliances Network Appliance
<<InterScan_Disclaimer.txt>>
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-
Clark Turner -
jack verdirame