jack verdirame jackv@netravision.com 10/6/2001 4:16:12 PM >>>
Hello,
What you need to consider is why you bought the filer or for what reason the filer is being considered in the first place. There was probably some Value provided by Netapp.
The only reason is for SQL and Oracle databases. I personally do not see the value as the 840 is $160k. Competition is less. But, we are not going purely for price. In the beginning we mentioned SQL and was told no problem. Now there is question. Netapp Engineer's will be here this week for onsite testing. It should be fun.
As for defined support: It is interesting based on docs, MS support is in question in these environments, especially when other DB vendors support there product in a MS environment with Filers. You should start to question what MS is really supporting - their File System. A typical MS exchange outage in a Supported MS environment is several+ hours and could be days. Remember this is a MS product corruption and happens in a MS supported environment. Then what do you tell you upper management. In a Netapp environment that can be reduced to minutes+.
I find it interesting that SQL can run error free for years on direct attached storage. The minute we put the data on the 840 we get corruption and blank records. That's unacceptable and has NOTHING to do with SQL or MS. It has everything to do with Netapp and there product. That's why they are going to come on site to try to fix the problem and to prove performance. So far the 840 is about 50% slower than local disks. The SQL issue is simple... We get Proof of support in writing or we will NOT purchase netapp's for our Network. We are an MS shop and we work with MS and rely on them for support. If someone on this forum does not like MS then so be it. I still have to guarantee uptime. This is not a problem now and I will not let it become a problem.
If you really understand what Filers bring to your infrastructure and environment you should not be questioning Network Appliance but Microsoft. It is about time MS really started to understand what reliability, uptime, security and scalability are, not to mention a bunch of other verbs.
I disagree and this is just an MS flame post. If you want to Flame MS that's fine, go ahead and make a fool of yourself. Saying that the SQL issue is MS's fault when SQL works perfectly on direct attached storage is just asinine.
On a different subject - what about the gaping holes in MS OS and app security? What does management think of that? Oh yeah - download another SP and reboot.
Management does not think of that as I take care of issues like that before they are a problem. I laugh at posts like this that slam Microsoft. It reminds of the movie Plains trains and automobiles. John candy(Del Griffith) turns to Steve martin(Neil page) and says "Gee, It must be nice to be perfect and Odor free".
Have a good day,
Have a good day and a good week.
CT.
Jack
On Fri, 05 Oct 2001, Clark Turner wrote:
Ken, I know how you feel. I am in the same boat with the Netapp 840. We where about to migrate 150 DB's from SQL and oracle. I hope my email did not scare you to much. I know people are running SQL with success. Others are not. I wanted to explain what I learned so Netapp could understand why I am worried. It was not meant to freak out others. I would test and test and test and test to be Damn sure you do not have the problems we did.
C
"Bunce, Ken" KBunce@JunoLtg.com 10/5/2001 8:55:02 AM >>>
Reading e-mails like one from Clark is really making me nervous, I just convinced my corporation to migrate our SQL 7.0 database to a F840 based on assurances from Sandy and our local representatives from NetApp of MS support for SQL in a NAS environment.
I, too, have gotten my email from NetApp regarding signing a NDA. Quit worrying about protecting your tails and give us an honest answer.
Ken Bunce -----Original Message----- From: Clark Turner To: toasters@mathworks.com; sandra.lake@netapp.com Sent: 10/5/01 10:25 AM Subject: Re: NetApp response on Microsoft Support for SQL Server and Exchange
Thanks for the information Sandy. I just read the QB article 5 times. Towards the end of the article is states:
Limited support is extended to only the SQL server application and DOES NOT extend to any issues that may occur as a result of the use of non windows Logo qualified products:
EMC Clariion server Network Appliance Filers (specifically the Netapp F760 and F800)
Nowhere in the article does it say that NAS is supported on The Netapp products. There is a line stating "limited" support for NAS devices. "Limited" is not a good enough reason for me to put my Job on the line running SQL on this 840.
Here is another quote:
"Microsoft generally recommends that you store Database files either on local disk subsystems or on storage area networks (SAN)."
That's the one that grabs my attention. Add the lines about data corruption and I am scared.
Then add in a posts that passed through this list:
"It is confirmed from our Microsoft Rep. that they will not support SQL or Exchange on NAS. But it is supported on SAN. We are moving our SQL databases and exchange from NAS to a SAN. Leaving the F740 to do file services at a rather expensive cost."
and
"We have also noticed that some of the databases have gone suspect when there was a hiccup on the comm side. You know as well as I that's not acceptable. In some instances the databases that went suspect could not be recovered and had to be restored from a SQL backup."
After all of this I thought I would test our loaner 840 out. I took a copy of a production database that was 5 gig in size and then inserted 34 million records into it. First I ran this on local Raid 5 on a Compaq DL580. It took about 10 hours. Then I offloaded a fresh copy of the database to the 840 and ran the test again. To our amazement the netapp database was missing records. It failed to write the records down to disk. Just as the above quote states and just as the MS article warns. A single missing record means that my database us useless. I was never able to fix the problem in a week of solid testing. Then a Netapp employee sent me email talking about me signing a non disclosure statement before Netapp would discuss the issue really made me step back and think.
I think our data is to important to chance. I know some people are doing this but the events in the last week have told me that its just not safe.I need a solution that is GUARANTEED and officially supported by Microsoft.
CT
"Lake, Sandy" sandra.lake@netapp.com 10/4/2001 6:12:51 PM >>>
Network Appliance has more than 200 customers using filers with SQL Server 6.5, 7.0, or 2000 with databases ranging up to 800 GB. Microsoft has published knowledge base article Q304261 on the Microsoft Web site, which states support of their SQL Server product when used with Network Appliance F760 or F800 series products. The article can be found at:
http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/q304/2/61.asp?id=Q30426 1
The Microsoft rep in the field may not be aware of this knowledge base article. Customers will receive SQL Server support from Microsoft Product Support Services when they log a call.
Network Appliance hosts 1.1 million Exchange seats at more than 200 large Exchange accounts. Network Appliance is the primary provider of support for SnapManager and filers deployed in Exchange 5.5 or Exchange 2000 environments. When the Exchange log file and store are located on filers and the customer experiences any problems getting to their data, a support call would be opened with Network Appliance. Microsoft has published knowledge base article Q237767, which covers offline and snapshot backups in Exchange environments. That article can be found at http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/q237/7/67.asp?id=Q23776 7
Working with the customer, Network Appliance will determine if the root cause of the call is with SnapManager, filers, Exchange 5.5 or Exchange 2000. If the root cause is unrelated to NetApp products, IBM Global Services (IBMGS), NetApp's certified support partner for Exchange, is brought into the call to assist us. Network Appliance, IBMGS, and the customer work together to close the call to the customer's satisfaction. The customer's support agreement would be contracted through NetApp. There is no additional charge to the customer for the Exchange expertise provided by IBMGS. Network Appliance offers customers several service agreement levels that can be tailored to meet their specific support requirements.
Network Appliance offers many solutions that protect and enhance a customers investment in the Microsoft platform, however this is not the appropriate forum for that discussion. If you need or would like more details about information in this email, please contact your local sales rep.
Sandy Lake Director, Microsoft Alliances Network Appliance
<<InterScan_Disclaimer.txt>>
---------------------------------------- Content-Type: text/plain; name="InterScan_Disclaimer.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: ----------------------------------------
Clark:
It is a shame that you are having problems getting your F840 configured for SQL server.
My company is a small filer installation by today's standards at only about 20 or so filers for about 30TB of data, but we've been using NetApp for many years. We can't make any comparisons between NAS and local disk as we've never really looked it it, but I can assure you that we've haven't found a UNIX or Windows based file server as fast as a NetApp.
But performance is really secondary to our number one concern - reliability. In something like 4 to 5 years of running 50+TB on filers, we've *never* had to rebuild a machine. Further, our *only* data loss was about 12 hours of data on an upgrade that I personally botched. Once identified, we were able to "rewind" the affected filesystem 12 hours back and reboot clean - a 5 minute task. To date, I can't think of another system in our infrastructure which has been that steadfast in protecting the consistency and availability of our data.
I'm sure that whatever difficulty you had loosing records with SQL server was due to some initial mis-configuration as this simply isn't consistent with our experience and those of many others on this list. Storing databases is rather "new wave NAS" in my opinion - we stick to classic network file sharing. Nonetheless, I've read many white papers by folks which I've met and have good credibility showing that the approach you are using works well.
Please let us all know how this progresses when the NetApp engineers come out and tune your system. Also, please be sensitive to the fact that this list is comprised of many satisfied (for the most part) NetApp customers looking to share experiences, learn more, and bounce ideas around. We do dabble sometimes in comparing other NAS solutions and discussing the viability of certain uses for NetApps and NAS, but the group doesn't usually react well to inflammatory remarks.
-- Jeff
-- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jeff Krueger, NetApp CA E-Mail: jeff@qualcomm.com Senior Engineer Phone: 858-651-6709 Storage Lead (NAS/SAN) Fax: 858-651-6627 QUALCOMM, Inc. IT Engineering Web: www.qualcomm.com
On Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 08:29:08AM -0700, Clark Turner wrote:
jack verdirame jackv@netravision.com 10/6/2001 4:16:12 PM >>>
Hello,
What you need to consider is why you bought the filer or for what reason the filer is being considered in the first place. There was probably some Value provided by Netapp.
The only reason is for SQL and Oracle databases. I personally do not see the value as the 840 is $160k. Competition is less. But, we are not going purely for price. In the beginning we mentioned SQL and was told no problem. Now there is question. Netapp Engineer's will be here this week for onsite testing. It should be fun.
As for defined support: It is interesting based on docs, MS support is in question in these environments, especially when other DB vendors support there product in a MS environment with Filers. You should start to question what MS is really supporting - their File System. A typical MS exchange outage in a Supported MS environment is several+ hours and could be days. Remember this is a MS product corruption and happens in a MS supported environment. Then what do you tell you upper management. In a Netapp environment that can be reduced to minutes+.
I find it interesting that SQL can run error free for years on direct attached storage. The minute we put the data on the 840 we get corruption and blank records. That's unacceptable and has NOTHING to do with SQL or MS. It has everything to do with Netapp and there product. That's why they are going to come on site to try to fix the problem and to prove performance. So far the 840 is about 50% slower than local disks. The SQL issue is simple... We get Proof of support in writing or we will NOT purchase netapp's for our Network. We are an MS shop and we work with MS and rely on them for support. If someone on this forum does not like MS then so be it. I still have to guarantee uptime. This is not a problem now and I will not let it become a problem.
If you really understand what Filers bring to your infrastructure and environment you should not be questioning Network Appliance but Microsoft. It is about time MS really started to understand what reliability, uptime, security and scalability are, not to mention a bunch of other verbs.
I disagree and this is just an MS flame post. If you want to Flame MS that's fine, go ahead and make a fool of yourself. Saying that the SQL issue is MS's fault when SQL works perfectly on direct attached storage is just asinine.
On a different subject - what about the gaping holes in MS OS and app security? What does management think of that? Oh yeah - download another SP and reboot.
Management does not think of that as I take care of issues like that before they are a problem. I laugh at posts like this that slam Microsoft. It reminds of the movie Plains trains and automobiles. John candy(Del Griffith) turns to Steve martin(Neil page) and says "Gee, It must be nice to be perfect and Odor free".
Have a good day,
Have a good day and a good week.
CT.
Jack
On Fri, 05 Oct 2001, Clark Turner wrote:
Ken, I know how you feel. I am in the same boat with the Netapp 840. We where about to migrate 150 DB's from SQL and oracle. I hope my email did not scare you to much. I know people are running SQL with success. Others are not. I wanted to explain what I learned so Netapp could understand why I am worried. It was not meant to freak out others. I would test and test and test and test to be Damn sure you do not have the problems we did.
C
"Bunce, Ken" KBunce@JunoLtg.com 10/5/2001 8:55:02 AM >>>
Reading e-mails like one from Clark is really making me nervous, I just convinced my corporation to migrate our SQL 7.0 database to a F840 based on assurances from Sandy and our local representatives from NetApp of MS support for SQL in a NAS environment.
I, too, have gotten my email from NetApp regarding signing a NDA. Quit worrying about protecting your tails and give us an honest answer.
Ken Bunce -----Original Message----- From: Clark Turner To: toasters@mathworks.com; sandra.lake@netapp.com Sent: 10/5/01 10:25 AM Subject: Re: NetApp response on Microsoft Support for SQL Server and Exchange
Thanks for the information Sandy. I just read the QB article 5 times. Towards the end of the article is states:
Limited support is extended to only the SQL server application and DOES NOT extend to any issues that may occur as a result of the use of non windows Logo qualified products:
EMC Clariion server Network Appliance Filers (specifically the Netapp F760 and F800)
Nowhere in the article does it say that NAS is supported on The Netapp products. There is a line stating "limited" support for NAS devices. "Limited" is not a good enough reason for me to put my Job on the line running SQL on this 840.
Here is another quote:
"Microsoft generally recommends that you store Database files either on local disk subsystems or on storage area networks (SAN)."
That's the one that grabs my attention. Add the lines about data corruption and I am scared.
Then add in a posts that passed through this list:
"It is confirmed from our Microsoft Rep. that they will not support SQL or Exchange on NAS. But it is supported on SAN. We are moving our SQL databases and exchange from NAS to a SAN. Leaving the F740 to do file services at a rather expensive cost."
and
"We have also noticed that some of the databases have gone suspect when there was a hiccup on the comm side. You know as well as I that's not acceptable. In some instances the databases that went suspect could not be recovered and had to be restored from a SQL backup."
After all of this I thought I would test our loaner 840 out. I took a copy of a production database that was 5 gig in size and then inserted 34 million records into it. First I ran this on local Raid 5 on a Compaq DL580. It took about 10 hours. Then I offloaded a fresh copy of the database to the 840 and ran the test again. To our amazement the netapp database was missing records. It failed to write the records down to disk. Just as the above quote states and just as the MS article warns. A single missing record means that my database us useless. I was never able to fix the problem in a week of solid testing. Then a Netapp employee sent me email talking about me signing a non disclosure statement before Netapp would discuss the issue really made me step back and think.
I think our data is to important to chance. I know some people are doing this but the events in the last week have told me that its just not safe.I need a solution that is GUARANTEED and officially supported by Microsoft.
CT
"Lake, Sandy" sandra.lake@netapp.com 10/4/2001 6:12:51 PM >>>
Network Appliance has more than 200 customers using filers with SQL Server 6.5, 7.0, or 2000 with databases ranging up to 800 GB. Microsoft has published knowledge base article Q304261 on the Microsoft Web site, which states support of their SQL Server product when used with Network Appliance F760 or F800 series products. The article can be found at:
http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/q304/2/61.asp?id=Q30426 1
The Microsoft rep in the field may not be aware of this knowledge base article. Customers will receive SQL Server support from Microsoft Product Support Services when they log a call.
Network Appliance hosts 1.1 million Exchange seats at more than 200 large Exchange accounts. Network Appliance is the primary provider of support for SnapManager and filers deployed in Exchange 5.5 or Exchange 2000 environments. When the Exchange log file and store are located on filers and the customer experiences any problems getting to their data, a support call would be opened with Network Appliance. Microsoft has published knowledge base article Q237767, which covers offline and snapshot backups in Exchange environments. That article can be found at http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/q237/7/67.asp?id=Q23776 7
Working with the customer, Network Appliance will determine if the root cause of the call is with SnapManager, filers, Exchange 5.5 or Exchange 2000. If the root cause is unrelated to NetApp products, IBM Global Services (IBMGS), NetApp's certified support partner for Exchange, is brought into the call to assist us. Network Appliance, IBMGS, and the customer work together to close the call to the customer's satisfaction. The customer's support agreement would be contracted through NetApp. There is no additional charge to the customer for the Exchange expertise provided by IBMGS. Network Appliance offers customers several service agreement levels that can be tailored to meet their specific support requirements.
Network Appliance offers many solutions that protect and enhance a customers investment in the Microsoft platform, however this is not the appropriate forum for that discussion. If you need or would like more details about information in this email, please contact your local sales rep.
Sandy Lake Director, Microsoft Alliances Network Appliance
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-
Clark Turner -
Jeffrey Krueger