Greetings and salutations,
We have deployed, quite successfully, Netapp 3020 with iSCSI for all our Exchange and SQL servers. This solution has been in prod for more than a year now and the issues that we have seen are not directly related to iSCSI. Of course, we did put in place some safe guards that we believe has made the whole solution more reliable like:
- Run complete separate network for our iSCSI traffic.
- TOE cards for our heavy-duty servers.
- Overcapacity on our filer heads.
We did this since our iSCSI decision had nothing to do with cost (which at the time of the RFP FC was still significantly more expensive than iSCSI) but with our desire to keep our installation simple and not having to bring a new protocol/environment (FC) under our management. iSCSI has proven to be as fast, reliable and cost effective as we expected it without the steep learning curve of FC. Here are a few findings:
- TOE: On our lab we saw a 7%to 12% CPU savings by using them therefore we did not justify them for performance reasons but we ended up using them for SAN booting requirements.
- iSCSI Performance: on our lab/RPF we noticed better performance out of FC under heavy load conditions. Under our expected loads (low to average), we did not noticed any significance performance gains on FC over iSCSI.
- iSCSI Implementation: We also noticed that a year ago iSCSI looked like an "add-on" to most of the SAN vendors we spoke with. We selected Netapp for their simplicity and easy of management and both have been proven to be true.
Regards,
SPV
________________________________
From: owner-toasters@mathworks.com [mailto:owner-toasters@mathworks.com] On Behalf Of Julio Calderon Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 9:21 PM To: Raj Patel; toasters@mathworks.com Subject: RE: iSCSI SAN Queries
Greetings,
I've had first hand experience with Netapp 270s / iSCSI on couple of windows host. (past life)
Nutshell: SLOW, don't try exchange on it, it kept timing out on me. I've also seen a large client have issues with Lotus notes when using Gfilers 980c and HDS as the backend storage. (this was a poor configuration issue, too many LUNs over a 1 gig connection)
I've also tried it for another purposes and I lost my LUN a few times. The only way of getting it back then was by restarting the client! not a fun thing to do when you are running multiple apps on the same server.
Suggestion would be, directly attach application servers via GigE across to your iSCSI device. If direct connecting your app servers is not realistic. use VLANs to segregate traffic, dedicate iSCSI traffic to a set of bonded ports.
Start slow, make sure that the number of LUNs being provisioned to the app servers are provisioned in a control manner. (meaning, see how your application behaves in a controlled environment before doing any big role out) Monitor performance, use a testing tool (iozone) to see how much performance you would gain or loose from moving away from current solution.
Also, consider the advantages and disadvantages an iSCSI solution would bring your environment. (replication, HA, speed, easy of management, backup, etc)
TOE ? I think that the purpose of having iSCSI in your environment is to lower the investment of FC (SAN) solution by leveraging your current network infrastructure and current staff expertise so, if you start purchasing the TOE cards, you will in fact start cutting into the savings a properly architected and managed IP SAN (iscsi) solution would offer your company.
I have not had the opportunity to try a TOE card nor have I needed it to yet since I am able to reach almost wire speeds on GigE at the moment.
Can not comment on the HDS and EMC solutions but I can't believe they would be better than what Netapp has to offer since their main business is in the FC world.
Hope this helps guide you!
Best Regards,
Julio Calderon West Region - Systems Engineer
agami http://www.agami.com/ 1269 Innsbruck Drive http://maps.google.com/maps?q=1269+Innsbruck+Drive%2CSunnyvale%2CCA+940 89%2CUSA&hl=en Sunnyvale, CA 94089 USA
Work: 408.349.0414 Mobile: 408.394.5638 Fax: 408.349.0393 Email: jcalderon@agami.com mailto:jcalderon@agami.com IM: juliocus (Yahoo)
Want a signature like this? http://www.linkedin.com/e/sig/2105155/
________________________________
From: owner-toasters@mathworks.com [mailto:owner-toasters@mathworks.com] On Behalf Of Raj Patel Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 11:40 AM To: toasters@mathworks.com Subject: iSCSI SAN Queries
Hi,
We're in the preliminary scoping phase for a low/mid-range iSCSI SAN solution. I was wondering if anyone had any positive or negative real-world experiences with -
NetApp 270c HDS AMS200 EMC CX320
At the moment the NetApp is the most familiar to me as I have used one of their NAS boxes before and the simulator provides a pretty good indication of how it works. However the iSCSI seems a bit of a 'bolt-on' and its not clear if it will handle tiered storage as well as the other vendors (then again does it matter?).
The HDS & EMC are unknown quantities (other than what I can glean from the web).
Any feedback concerning ease of use, expansion, licensing, snapshot mechanism (the EMC seems clunky from their literature but I don't know if that's the case in operation).
Also does anyone have any iSCSI 'gotchas' ? Is a TOE one of those 'nice to have but not really necessary' things on a modern server or should it be factored into the solution ?
Cheers, Raj.
<font size="2">"IMPORTANT NOTICE: The information in this email (and any attachments hereto) is confidential and may be protected by legal privileges and work product immunities. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not use or disseminate the information. Receipt by anyone other than the intended recipient is not a waiver of any attorney-client or work product privilege. If you have received this email in error, please immediately notify me by "Reply" command and permanently delete the original and any copies or printouts thereof. Although this email and any attachments are believed to be free of any virus or other defect that might affect any computer system into which it is received and opened, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Transatlantic Reinsurance Company or its subsidiaries or affiliates either jointly or severally, for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use."</font>
Thanks for sharing your findings.
Rule of thumb, regardless of what vendor you choose to go with, review their specific best practices
Netapp has them here:
http://now.netapp.com/NOW/knowledge/docs/bpg/san_ipsan/man_admin_iscsi.s html
EMC has them here: http://www.emc.com/techlib/pdf/H1784_Celerra_iSCSI_Solutions_MS_Exch_ldv .pdf
Hitachi,
I looked but could not find their best practices.
My personal recommendation is to review what other vendors have to offer as well.
If you do a quick search on the net, you will find many.
Best Regards, Julio C.
________________________________
From: Pichardo, Socrates [mailto:spichardo@transre.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 8:54 AM To: Julio Calderon; Raj Patel; toasters@mathworks.com Subject: RE: iSCSI SAN Queries
Greetings and salutations,
We have deployed, quite successfully, Netapp 3020 with iSCSI for all our Exchange and SQL servers. This solution has been in prod for more than a year now and the issues that we have seen are not directly related to iSCSI. Of course, we did put in place some safe guards that we believe has made the whole solution more reliable like:
- Run complete separate network for our iSCSI traffic.
- TOE cards for our heavy-duty servers.
- Overcapacity on our filer heads.
We did this since our iSCSI decision had nothing to do with cost (which at the time of the RFP FC was still significantly more expensive than iSCSI) but with our desire to keep our installation simple and not having to bring a new protocol/environment (FC) under our management. iSCSI has proven to be as fast, reliable and cost effective as we expected it without the steep learning curve of FC. Here are a few findings:
- TOE: On our lab we saw a 7%to 12% CPU savings by using them therefore we did not justify them for performance reasons but we ended up using them for SAN booting requirements.
- iSCSI Performance: on our lab/RPF we noticed better performance out of FC under heavy load conditions. Under our expected loads (low to average), we did not noticed any significance performance gains on FC over iSCSI.
- iSCSI Implementation: We also noticed that a year ago iSCSI looked like an "add-on" to most of the SAN vendors we spoke with. We selected Netapp for their simplicity and easy of management and both have been proven to be true.
Regards,
SPV
________________________________
From: owner-toasters@mathworks.com [mailto:owner-toasters@mathworks.com] On Behalf Of Julio Calderon Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 9:21 PM To: Raj Patel; toasters@mathworks.com Subject: RE: iSCSI SAN Queries
Greetings,
I've had first hand experience with Netapp 270s / iSCSI on couple of windows host. (past life)
Nutshell: SLOW, don't try exchange on it, it kept timing out on me. I've also seen a large client have issues with Lotus notes when using Gfilers 980c and HDS as the backend storage. (this was a poor configuration issue, too many LUNs over a 1 gig connection)
I've also tried it for another purposes and I lost my LUN a few times. The only way of getting it back then was by restarting the client! not a fun thing to do when you are running multiple apps on the same server.
Suggestion would be, directly attach application servers via GigE across to your iSCSI device. If direct connecting your app servers is not realistic. use VLANs to segregate traffic, dedicate iSCSI traffic to a set of bonded ports.
Start slow, make sure that the number of LUNs being provisioned to the app servers are provisioned in a control manner. (meaning, see how your application behaves in a controlled environment before doing any big role out) Monitor performance, use a testing tool (iozone) to see how much performance you would gain or loose from moving away from current solution.
Also, consider the advantages and disadvantages an iSCSI solution would bring your environment. (replication, HA, speed, easy of management, backup, etc)
TOE ? I think that the purpose of having iSCSI in your environment is to lower the investment of FC (SAN) solution by leveraging your current network infrastructure and current staff expertise so, if you start purchasing the TOE cards, you will in fact start cutting into the savings a properly architected and managed IP SAN (iscsi) solution would offer your company.
I have not had the opportunity to try a TOE card nor have I needed it to yet since I am able to reach almost wire speeds on GigE at the moment.
Can not comment on the HDS and EMC solutions but I can't believe they would be better than what Netapp has to offer since their main business is in the FC world.
Hope this helps guide you!
Best Regards,
Julio Calderon West Region - Systems Engineer
agami http://www.agami.com/ 1269 Innsbruck Drive http://maps.google.com/maps?q=1269+Innsbruck+Drive%2CSunnyvale%2CCA+940 89%2CUSA&hl=en Sunnyvale, CA 94089 USA
Work: 408.349.0414 Mobile: 408.394.5638 Fax: 408.349.0393 Email: jcalderon@agami.com mailto:jcalderon@agami.com IM: juliocus (Yahoo)
Want a signature like this? http://www.linkedin.com/e/sig/2105155/
________________________________
From: owner-toasters@mathworks.com [mailto:owner-toasters@mathworks.com] On Behalf Of Raj Patel Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 11:40 AM To: toasters@mathworks.com Subject: iSCSI SAN Queries
Hi,
We're in the preliminary scoping phase for a low/mid-range iSCSI SAN solution. I was wondering if anyone had any positive or negative real-world experiences with -
NetApp 270c HDS AMS200 EMC CX320
At the moment the NetApp is the most familiar to me as I have used one of their NAS boxes before and the simulator provides a pretty good indication of how it works. However the iSCSI seems a bit of a 'bolt-on' and its not clear if it will handle tiered storage as well as the other vendors (then again does it matter?).
The HDS & EMC are unknown quantities (other than what I can glean from the web).
Any feedback concerning ease of use, expansion, licensing, snapshot mechanism (the EMC seems clunky from their literature but I don't know if that's the case in operation).
Also does anyone have any iSCSI 'gotchas' ? Is a TOE one of those 'nice to have but not really necessary' things on a modern server or should it be factored into the solution ?
Cheers, Raj.
"IMPORTANT NOTICE: The information in this email (and any attachments hereto) is confidential and may be protected by legal privileges and work product immunities. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not use or disseminate the information. Receipt by anyone other than the intended recipient is not a waiver of any attorney-client or work product privilege. If you have received this email in error, please immediately notify me by "Reply" command and permanently delete the original and any copies or printouts thereof. Although this email and any attachments are believed to be free of any virus or other defect that might affect any computer system into which it is received and opened, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Transatlantic Reinsurance Company or its subsidiaries or affiliates either jointly or severally, for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use."
http://now.netapp.com/NOW/knowledge/docs/bpg/san_ipsan/man_admin_iscsi.shtml
One slight annoyance is that this site is member only and basic membership doesn't let you get to this page (Cisco has something similar on their site and its just as aggravating). The EMC page did come straight up though. I'll see if I can get the doc out of a local NetApp vendor.
Cheers, Raj.
On 11/23/06, Julio Calderon jcalderon@agami.com wrote:
Thanks for sharing your findings.
Rule of thumb, regardless of what vendor you choose to go with, review their specific best practices
Netapp has them here:
http://now.netapp.com/NOW/knowledge/docs/bpg/san_ipsan/man_admin_iscsi.shtml
EMC has them here:
http://www.emc.com/techlib/pdf/H1784_Celerra_iSCSI_Solutions_MS_Exch_ldv.pdf
Hitachi,
I looked but could not find their best practices.
My personal recommendation is to review what other vendors have to offer as well.
If you do a quick search on the net, you will find many.
Best Regards, Julio C.
-
Julio Calderon -
Pichardo, Socrates -
Raj Patel