in response to requests, there's now a toasters archive.
http://teaparty.mathworks.com:1999/toasters/archive . fwiw, that's a new dns record which i just made, so it might take a while for the new record to propagate around to you all.
at the moment, the archive will be updated when i get around to it. i'll probably automate that at some point. there's no mechanism for submitting a post to toasters without having it archived, and i'll get around to doing that if enough people ask me.
Tom Yates - Unix Chap - The Mathworks, Inc. - +1 (508) 647 7561 MAG#65061 DoD#0135 AMA#461546 1024/CFDFDE39 0C E7 46 60 BB 96 87 05 04 BD FB F8 BB 20 C1 8C "Microsoft (tm) is a single-sofa supplier"
On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Tom Yates wrote:
in response to requests, there's now a toasters archive.
That's great, Tom. Thanks a lot for setting it up. Next question: do we have a FAQ for this mailing list yet? :)
On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Brian Tao wrote:
That's great, Tom. Thanks a lot for setting it up. Next
question: do we have a FAQ for this mailing list yet? :)
a) you're welcome.
b) no. volunteers? i haven't noticed any questions popping up repetitively yet, so i have 0 idea what would be on it.
Tom Yates - Unix Chap - The Mathworks, Inc. - +1 (508) 647 7561 MAG#65061 DoD#0135 AMA#461546 1024/CFDFDE39 0C E7 46 60 BB 96 87 05 04 BD FB F8 BB 20 C1 8C "Microsoft (tm) is a single-sofa supplier"
On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Tom Yates wrote:
b) no. volunteers? i haven't noticed any questions popping up repetitively yet, so i have 0 idea what would be on it.
Well, these questions probably haven't been repeated all that much, but getting answers to them would be a good start to a FAQ.
1) What is a NetApp Model XYZ? [Have a brief feature list and product position summary for anything NetApp ever made, like the FAservers, the F220 vs. F210/F230, etc. Maybe we could get some anecdotes related to the choice of faceplate colours for the various filers ;-) ]
2) What third-party components can I use? [Product number and vendors for drives, RAM, cables, shelves and canisters. Include suitable disclaimers that you may void your warranty or support contract, etc.]
3) How do I shrink the filesystem on a NetApp? [Heck, I haven't figured this out... only way is backup to tape, restripe the whole unit and restore from tape?]
4) Why does Solaris 2.5 'du' not show the right file sizes? [Actually, I think this is covered in the Solaris FAQ too]
5) Why can't I put more than 52GB on an F210 or F220, even though it can physically hold more?
That's all I can think of at the moment.
On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Tom Yates wrote: Well, these questions probably haven't been repeated all that much, but getting answers to them would be a good start to a FAQ.
- What is a NetApp Model XYZ? [Have a brief feature list and
product position summary for anything NetApp ever made, like the FAservers, the F220 vs. F210/F230, etc. Maybe we could get some anecdotes related to the choice of faceplate colours for the various filers ;-) ]
I believe that the "nuclear banana" color of the F220 was first used as the background of our web page.
One day Linda Henry (who chooses colors for web pages and filers) walked into my office, saw the nuclear banana background on my browser, and said, "Oh my God, that's really bright!"
The monitor on Linda's desk apparently displayed nuclear banana as a warm and gentle tone of gold.
It turns out that every filer color so far (except beige), is present in an abstract painting by David Hockney that I have in my office. Linda denies that there is any connection, but for anyone who is curious about upcoming filer colors, the painting also includes bright red, bright orange, sky blue, and white.
Here's what I remember off the top of my head.
First Generation:
These systems were all based on the EISA bus.
FAServer 400 The first box. A black tower tower unit. The systems units held 7 GB and could do 400 LADDIS ops/sec. (Hence the name.)
FAServer 450 Same box, but with a faster CPU. Maybe we also allowed the expansion cabinet (a second black tower) at the same time.
FAServer 1300 The first rack-mount system. Same basic electronics, but with rack-mount electronics and disks. (Boring Beige.)
FAServer 1400 Same again, but with support for hot plugging disk drives. (More beige.)
Second Generation:
The F220, F330, and F540 formed our first coherent product line. They were small, medium, and large, respectively.
We stopped using "FAS" in the name because it conflicted with the trademark for some company that made financial software (Financial Application Software = FAS). I like the simpler names better anyway.
They were released in the following order.
F330 The first PCI bus. The first bright blue bezel. (Code named Bambi. So named because we knew that Godzilla would crush it, performance wise.)
F540 Twice as fast as the F330. (Cool silver metal bezel with a sliding door.)
F220 NUCLEAR BANANA BEZEL!!! Ahem. This is a cost reduced F330 with fewer PCI slots, a slower CPU, and reduced (or eliminated, I forget) L2 cache.
Third Generation:
This is the first time that we've rolled our entire product line at once. In addition to small, medium, and large, we now support an extra small. They are the F230, F520, F630, and F210, respectively.
F630 ("large") New top-of-the-line server. About twice as fast as the F540 it replaces. (As the fastest box, it gets the cool metal bezel.)
F520 ("medium") Roughly similar in performance to the old F540, but inheriting the blue bezel of the F330, which was the previous "medium" server.
F230 ("small") Roughly similar in performance to the old F330 but with fewer slots and with a deep forest green bezel.
F210 ("x-small") A small non-rack-mount filer, colored black to invoke a nostalgic memory of the old FAServer 400 tower.
- What third-party components can I use? [Product number and
vendors for drives, RAM, cables, shelves and canisters. Include suitable disclaimers that you may void your warranty or support contract, etc.]
This has always been a frustrating issue for me. When we first started NetApp, our goal was to let customers buy as many of their own components as possible. We didn't figure that we added much value to a disk drive or a PCI board (EISA at that time). (When we first, first started, we seriously considered being a software only company. I mean, PCs basically just work, right?)
We were confused.
It turns out that board vendors frequently change components on their boards in ways that shouldn't affect anything, but which often do, especially at the high loads that NetApp filers generate. We often find ourselves working with vendors to find failure modes at super-high performance levels that nobody else seems to reach. In an ideal world, vendors would always identify such changes with a new product number, but on this planet they sometimes don't.
Similarly, disk vendors frequently make changes to their firmware that shouldn't affect anything but sometimes does. There at least you always seem to get a new revision level, although there are sometimes other differences in quality -- like the amount of pre-ship testing that the drive vendor does -- that aren't reflected in part numbers or revision numbers. (Pop quiz: Do you think the disks at Fry's get the most testing or the least testing?)
Even with memory, which really ought to just work, it seems that there can be capacitance differences between lots that can cause bus loading problems if you don't check for it.
In any case, I think that there is a list of supported third-party components buried somewhere in the documentation, at least for disks -- which seem to be the most sensitive issue -- and possibly for memory, which seems to be the second most sensitive.
- How do I shrink the filesystem on a NetApp? [Heck, I haven't
figured this out... only way is backup to tape, restripe the whole unit and restore from tape?]
I'm afraid that backup/restore is the only way. We've occasionally brainstormed about how we might teach WAFL to do this, but never come up with a clean solution.
Dave
More thoughts -
The FAServer 400, 450, and 1300 had VGA consoles. The 1400 had a serial console because instead of a VGA card, you had the card for the hot swap support logic, plus a serial port. One could theoretically put this card in other systems as well and convert them from VGA to serial console systems, but the hot swap capability in a tower model probably isn't going to be very useful.
F520 ("medium") Roughly similar in performance to the old F540, but inheriting the blue bezel of the F330, which was the previous "medium" server.
Actually, the F520s blue is a different shade than the F330s, but it is not a very noticeable difference unless they are side-by-side.
Bruce
More thoughts -
The FAServer 400, 450, and 1300 had VGA consoles. The 1400 had a serial console because instead of a VGA card, you had the card for the hot swap support logic, plus a serial port. One could theoretically put this card in other systems as well and convert them from VGA to serial console systems, but the hot swap capability in a tower model probably isn't going to be very useful.
F520 ("medium") Roughly similar in performance to the old F540, but inheriting the blue bezel of the F330, which was the previous "medium" server.
Actually, the F520s blue is a different shade than the F330s, but it is not a very noticeable difference unless they are side-by-side.
Here's some trivia: The Forest Green bezel on the F230 appears to be painted on over blue plastic. (At least the one I've examined. Are the 220/330 colors painted?
Should we talk here about studded leather bezels?
I think a nice Black Walnut would be good, or perhaps a Mangowood one.
F520 ("medium") Roughly similar in performance to the old F540, but inheriting the blue bezel of the F330, which was the previous "medium" server.
Actually, the F520s blue is a different shade than the F330s, but it is not a very noticeable difference unless they are side-by-side.
Here's some trivia: The Forest Green bezel on the F230 appears to be painted on over blue plastic. (At least the one I've examined. Are the 220/330 colors painted?
Prototype bezels are, I believe... the F220 we have has a very rough "painted" surface. I don't think this is intended for the final product. But I don't knwo for sure; I haven't seen a released F230 bezel yet. :)
Bruce
On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Dave Hitz wrote:
I believe that the "nuclear banana" color of the F220 was first used as the background of our web page.
Much as I love bananas, does Netapp offer a Bezel Trade-In Program? :) I would seriously pay some money to replace the faceplate of our F220 with a nice black or dark green colour. Then again, I suppose I could just paint the darn thing. ;-)
On a serious note: how much impact does the bezel have on airflow? Is heat much of a problem for the chassis? We don't have an internal tape drive, and I've removed the bezel off ours (the grey metal underneath matches the rest of our racks). Does it serve a cooling purpose, or is it just there for "looks"?
F630 ("large") New top-of-the-line server. About twice as fast as the F540 it replaces. (As the fastest box, it gets the cool metal bezel.)
Code-named "Mothra", I believe (to relate back to the Gozilla and Bambi names). :)
It turns out that board vendors frequently change components on their boards in ways that shouldn't affect anything, but which often do, especially at the high loads that NetApp filers generate.
The very same problem exists between DOS/Windows and Linux/FreeBSD on Intel hardware. Stuff that works great in a Microsoft OS mysteriously fails under a more robust and demanding environment. Not to say that you can't build a reliable, efficient Intel box, but you can't just go down to your street corner clone dealer and throw together any old components and expect it to work as a server.
- How do I shrink the filesystem on a NetApp? [Heck, I haven't
figured this out... only way is backup to tape, restripe the whole unit and restore from tape?]
I'm afraid that backup/restore is the only way. We've occasionally brainstormed about how we might teach WAFL to do this, but never come up with a clean solution.
Sounds like you'd have to do the equivalent of a "disk defrag" on the filesystem: compact all allocated data blocks to the smallest contiguous block that falls within a drive boundary. Yeah, it doesn't sound like there's an easy way of doing it without stopping all NFS activity on the filer while it rearranges the data.
Code-named "Mothra", I believe (to relate back to the Gozilla and
Bambi names). :)
Okay, real trivia.
A *long* time ago, when it became obvious that the EISA bus was a big lose, we decided to move to PCI. At that time we already had a port of our software to run on an Alpha platform (in our simulator), and were faced with exploring fast off-the-shelf PCI solutions.
We obviously were going to look at Pentium, which had a PCI support chip set available, and Alpha was our next shot as it was due out the door and we had the port almost done.
Most of engineering was invited over my house on a Wednesday nite I believe for a video night of the two most violent films I'd ever seen -- "Robocop" and "Bambi". (I have a small place -- this was a long time ago -- engineering mostly fit in my living room).
Between the two films to bridge was an unannounced short.
The short was the cult classic cartoon "Bambi Meets Godzilla".
Later that week we named the two projects that ran in parallel "Bambi" (later the F330) and "Godzilla" (the F540). We had both going internally full steam up until the decision to ship the F330 first (parts availability issues mostly).
beepy
Later that week we named the two projects that ran in parallel "Bambi" (later the F330) and "Godzilla" (the F540). We had both going internally full steam up until the decision to ship the F330 first (parts availability issues mostly).
For those who are curious, the F220 was "Ratbert".
A *long* time ago, when it became obvious that the EISA bus was a big lose, we decided to move to PCI. At that time we already had a port of our software to run on an Alpha platform (in our simulator),
As long as we're in the "potentially interesting trivia" category:
"Simulator" here refers to the fact that we can build our software to run inside a UNIX process on SunOS 4.1[.x]/SPARC, SunOS 5.x/SPARC, Digital UNIX/Alpha, Linux/x86 PC, and BSD/OS/x86 PC, using files as simulated disks and tapes and NVRAM, the OS's "get at the raw Ethernet in promiscuous mode" mechanism as a simulated Ethernet (it sets the filter to get packets sent to the Ethernet broadcast address or to the Ethernet address the simulator has been configured to use), and the tty on which you're running it as the console.
It's a slow and really small server, but it's quite useful for debugging and testing.
Much of the 64-bitification (the Alpha filers run with 64-bit "long"s and pointers) and low-level platform-independent Alpha support was originally done in the simulator.
On Tue, 24 Jun 1997, Brian Tao wrote:
On Mon, 23 Jun 1997, Dave Hitz wrote:
I believe that the "nuclear banana" color of the F220 was first used as the background of our web page.
Much as I love bananas, does Netapp offer a Bezel Trade-In
Program? :) I would seriously pay some money to replace the faceplate of our F220 with a nice black or dark green colour. Then again, I suppose I could just paint the darn thing. ;-)
If you have an F540 or F630 you can always achieve a different color by keeping the server outside on a few rainy days (or is the cover aluminium?) but I'm not sure what that does to your warranty :-)
By the way - someone said something about a list with approved other-vendor spare parts for Netapp servers. Can I get hold of that list somewhere?
/Ragnar, Algonet/TNI