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Re: HSM with Net App Filers?
by Duncan Wright 08 May '01

08 May '01

Hello Joe, Darleen, Neil (are you 'toasters'?), Tom, Stan May I introduce myself. My name is Duncan Wright, and I am the Managing Director of Enigma Data Systems. Thank you for enquiries about our HSM solution - I hope to answer a few questions in this e-mail, but please do contact me if you have further questions. Our principal market is the upstream Oil and Gas sector where many terabytes of data are collected and processed several times to determine hydrocarbon prospects worldwide. Our customers include all the big ones like ExxonMobil, Shell, bp, Anadarko etc. Some customers are also Network Appliance clients aswell - for instance, Anadarko ordered 17TB of Filers last week, and our software will be responsible for managing the datasets - including project archiving and HSM. I don't want to bore you with all the details, so will be brief!!. Our software is designed to handle large volumes of data and high speed robotic libraries . One of our biggest benefits is that our software is project based. The oil industry works in projects - like a block/lease of sea bed in the Gulf of Mexico, or an interpretation project which is smaller, and where a drilling opportunity may exist. A project can include Oracle with pointers to files spread over several filesystems, and indeed systems. A project can include several people and dozens of applications and a variety of file types. Outside the oil industry, a project could be the flaps on a Boeing 737, or an engine at Ford. In the end we all work in projects, even in Microsoft Office. A project could be a filesystem, or a person!. We have a number of products, but the ones of interest to you will be (I think!), IDS (Intelligent Data Store) - the I/O layer that allows any application to interface to tape libraries, without modification to the application, PARS (Project Archiving and Retrieval System) and in particular, PARS Migrator. Let me concentrate on PARS Migrator. PARS Migrator is project based HSM. We embed Veritas's HSM engine to handle the 'movement' of files from the disk to tape. One of the issues with standard HSM is that it works 'in a panic'!!. It is reactive and doesn't allow predictions, or scheduling or 'what if' scenario's.. It causes network overload and I/O overload by generating simultaneous reads and writes and concentrates precious CPU cycles on swapping out data instead of executing users applications. These always happen in peak time!!. PARS Migrator has a management layer that allows previews, scheduling, and most important - projects to move on and off disk. We have a whole presentation on this as I am sure you can imagine, and an e-mail does not do justice. But suffice to say that the HSM interface to IDS has been written by Veritas, and is maintained by Veritas. We are an OEM for Veritas and actively market their HSM and Netbackup products. We believe that IDS is a much simpler I/O layer than Veritas's Media Manager, with the added advantage that we can make your robots work 24 hours a day because any application can interface to IDS, so silo's for backup, HSM, and general near line are eliminated and concentrated on a single I/O layer and a single tape library run by IDS. Our focus is on reducing the cost of data. Hardware costs maybe reducing very quickly but the cost of ownership of, and the cost of data is rising as rapidly as volumes increase almost out of control. Enigma believes that it has products that can cap the cost of ownership of data and make data accessible to your users in a timely manner - personnel costs are sometimes the highest cost of all, and having them wait hours, or even days for data is a major barrier to productivity. I promised to be brief, but have failed!!. I hope that I given you an understanding into Enigma and our products. We have offices in Houston and the UK, and support customers all over the world in countries like Brunei, Nigeria, Egypt and far off lands like Australia from our bases in the Texas and Sussex. We have a pedigree in managing large volumes of data of a diverse nature and will be delighted to work with you on your HSM requirements. We are working with Network Appliance to provide an HSM solution to its clients. Thank you for your time, and I look forward to the possibility of working with you in the future. Kind regards Duncan Wright ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Luchtenberg" <joe.luchtenberg(a)data-line.com> To: "'Cormier, Darleen'" <Darleen.Cormier(a)netapp.com> Cc: <dwright(a)enigmadata.com> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 11:25 AM Subject: RE: HSM with filers? > Thanks. I saw your previous reply to Neil and realized that I need to learn > more about Enigma Data, so I have requested additional info from them. Joe > > -----Original Message----- > From: Cormier, Darleen [mailto:Darleen.Cormier@netapp.com] > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 12:16 PM > To: Joe Luchtenberg; Cormier, Darleen; 'Tom "Mad Dog" Yergeau'; > 'toasters(a)mathworks.com'; 'dwright(a)enigmadata.com' > Subject: RE: HSM with filers? > > > What you are saying is true, Joe. A customer does not buy Veritas' Storage > Migrator and then buy Enigma Data. Enigma Data has Veritas Storage Migrator > already integrated into their "stuff". Veritas' package, by itself, is not > compatible with filers. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joe Luchtenberg [mailto:joe.luchtenberg@data-line.com] > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 8:59 AM > To: 'Cormier, Darleen'; 'Tom "Mad Dog" Yergeau'; > 'toasters(a)mathworks.com' > Subject: RE: HSM with filers? > > > Darleen, > Would you please elaborate? A cursory look at Enigma Data's website reveals > that the HSM part of their solution is Veritas Storage Migrator, which is > not interoperable with NetApp filers (unless I am completely misinformed). > Am I missing something here, or are the customers to which you refer > concurrently using NetApp and Enigma/Veritas storage solutions but not > integrating them? Joe > > Joe Luchtenberg > Dataline, Inc. > 757.858.0600 > 757.285.1223 (cell) > 757.858.0606 (fax) > joe.luchtenberg(a)data-line.com > www.data-line.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Cormier, Darleen [mailto:Darleen.Cormier@netapp.com] > Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 10:57 AM > To: 'Tom "Mad Dog" Yergeau'; 'toasters(a)mathworks.com' > Subject: RE: HSM with filers? > > > Hi Tom, Just to let you know, we do have some NetApp customers both using > and evaluating a package called Enigma Data. www.enigmadata.com You might > want to talk to them and see if their package will meet your needs. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom "Mad Dog" Yergeau [mailto:MadDog@fool.com] > Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 10:48 PM > To: 'toasters(a)mathworks.com' > Subject: HSM with filers? > > > I just took the NetApp backup survey that they sent out and one of the > questions was about using hierarchical storage management with filers. > > Does anyone know of any HSM products out there that currently work with > filers? > > Thanks, > Tom >

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RE: NDMP, Veritas and Netapp---slow restores?
by Cormier, Darleen 08 May '01

08 May '01

To Mike and all, Correction to the info below. I just received an update to the info below, that Veritas will NOT be including DAR support in release 4.5, but probably will be including it in the release after that. -----Original Message----- From: Cormier, Darleen Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 9:01 AM To: 'MikeBall(a)datalink.com'; owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com Cc: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: RE: NDMP, Veritas and Netapp---slow restores? Mike, The problem you are running into has to do with the fact that Veritas does not presently support DAR. DAR is defined as Direct Access Restore, and it speeds restores by directly accessing the file to be restored on the correct tape, without having to load and stream through each tape in the backup set. NetApp now supports this capability in DatONTAP 6.0 and above, and I believe Veritas is planning on supporting this in their 4.5 release of NetBackup. -----Original Message----- From: MikeBall(a)datalink.com [mailto:MikeBall@datalink.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 5:43 AM To: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com Cc: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: NDMP, Veritas and Netapp---slow restores? Below is our environment ------------------------- Veritas DataCenter 3.4GA Patch J0850482 on Sun e250 2 400M procs and 512M ram ATL3000 Tape Library with DLT-7000 drives NetApp 760 Filer running OnTap 5.3.6R1 2 tape drives directly attached to the onboard SCSI port on Netapp Netapp is attached to LAN by gigabit ethernet Scenario ------------ We are backing up the nightly snapshots. We have a Netapp backup class. I have had to give each class the NEW_STREAM directive in order to get multiple jobs started, but unlike the other Veritas jobs, they line up in a queue and execute one at a time. Restores are quite slow, and while I can pick individual files out of a catalog, neither Veritas nor OnTap has any idea where they are on the tape. I have used the OnTap utilities to check status on the drive and seen it searching serially thru the tape for the file. The Veritas messages are very sparse. The first time I tried a restore, I had a 168Gb volume in one stream. It eventually took 5.5 hours to restore, and that was after I killed the job because I had no feedback from Veritas, having to reset the tape drives because they were downed by the kill. By splitting up the streams, I got this down to about an hour, but it is still slow enough to be an issue. Does anyone have any idea what I may be doing wrong or is this just a issue with Veritas NDMP? Does anyone no if Veritas is planning on fixing this slow restore performance via NDMP? Will upgrading to Data Ontap 6.02 help any? Thank you for your help, Mike

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Maximum volume size
by Leigh David Heyman 08 May '01

08 May '01

So, I've been through some docs, and they seem to say that the maximum "recommended" size of a single volume is 250G. With 36G drives this equates to basically 1 volume per shelf???!?! Is this correct, or has the documentation in this regard not been updated? Does anyon know what this "recommendation" is based on? It doesn't seem very efficient. -Leigh ----------------------------- A nasty looking dwarf throws a knife at you.

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RE: NDMP, Veritas and Netapp---slow restores?
by Cormier, Darleen 08 May '01

08 May '01

Mike, The problem you are running into has to do with the fact that Veritas does not presently support DAR. DAR is defined as Direct Access Restore, and it speeds restores by directly accessing the file to be restored on the correct tape, without having to load and stream through each tape in the backup set. NetApp now supports this capability in DatONTAP 6.0 and above, and I believe Veritas is planning on supporting this in their 4.5 release of NetBackup. -----Original Message----- From: MikeBall(a)datalink.com [mailto:MikeBall@datalink.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 5:43 AM To: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com Cc: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: NDMP, Veritas and Netapp---slow restores? Below is our environment ------------------------- Veritas DataCenter 3.4GA Patch J0850482 on Sun e250 2 400M procs and 512M ram ATL3000 Tape Library with DLT-7000 drives NetApp 760 Filer running OnTap 5.3.6R1 2 tape drives directly attached to the onboard SCSI port on Netapp Netapp is attached to LAN by gigabit ethernet Scenario ------------ We are backing up the nightly snapshots. We have a Netapp backup class. I have had to give each class the NEW_STREAM directive in order to get multiple jobs started, but unlike the other Veritas jobs, they line up in a queue and execute one at a time. Restores are quite slow, and while I can pick individual files out of a catalog, neither Veritas nor OnTap has any idea where they are on the tape. I have used the OnTap utilities to check status on the drive and seen it searching serially thru the tape for the file. The Veritas messages are very sparse. The first time I tried a restore, I had a 168Gb volume in one stream. It eventually took 5.5 hours to restore, and that was after I killed the job because I had no feedback from Veritas, having to reset the tape drives because they were downed by the kill. By splitting up the streams, I got this down to about an hour, but it is still slow enough to be an issue. Does anyone have any idea what I may be doing wrong or is this just a issue with Veritas NDMP? Does anyone no if Veritas is planning on fixing this slow restore performance via NDMP? Will upgrading to Data Ontap 6.02 help any? Thank you for your help, Mike

1 0

NDMP, Veritas and Netapp---slow restores?
by MikeBall＠datalink.com 08 May '01

08 May '01

Below is our environment ------------------------- Veritas DataCenter 3.4GA Patch J0850482 on Sun e250 2 400M procs and 512M ram ATL3000 Tape Library with DLT-7000 drives NetApp 760 Filer running OnTap 5.3.6R1 2 tape drives directly attached to the onboard SCSI port on Netapp Netapp is attached to LAN by gigabit ethernet Scenario ------------ We are backing up the nightly snapshots. We have a Netapp backup class. I have had to give each class the NEW_STREAM directive in order to get multiple jobs started, but unlike the other Veritas jobs, they line up in a queue and execute one at a time. Restores are quite slow, and while I can pick individual files out of a catalog, neither Veritas nor OnTap has any idea where they are on the tape. I have used the OnTap utilities to check status on the drive and seen it searching serially thru the tape for the file. The Veritas messages are very sparse. The first time I tried a restore, I had a 168Gb volume in one stream. It eventually took 5.5 hours to restore, and that was after I killed the job because I had no feedback from Veritas, having to reset the tape drives because they were downed by the kill. By splitting up the streams, I got this down to about an hour, but it is still slow enough to be an issue. Does anyone have any idea what I may be doing wrong or is this just a issue with Veritas NDMP? Does anyone no if Veritas is planning on fixing this slow restore performance via NDMP? Will upgrading to Data Ontap 6.02 help any? Thank you for your help, Mike

2 1

na_macstream utility from Network Appliance
by Allen, Pat 08 May '01

08 May '01

Hi all, Does anybody have any experience running the na_macstream utility that is supposed to convert all the DAVE Macintosh Client resource.frk files after upgrading to 6.0.1R3? I upgraded this morning and immediately ran the utility as instructed. Whenever it finds the resource.frk file, it gives me an error message that says that it can't delete the files under that directory name. A couple of questions: 1. Is this error message common? (I'm running in verbose mode.) 2. Are the resource.frk directories necessary after running the na_macstream utility? Thanks! --- Pat Allen (pat(a)mbari.org) Monterey Bay Aquarium Research Institute (MBARI) 7700 Sandholdt Rd, Moss Landing, CA 95039 (voice) 831-775-1724; (fax) 831-775-1620

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RE: Quota Notifier
by Nail, Larry 08 May '01

08 May '01

Michael, Perl runs on Win32 as well... check out ActiveState.com. I've taken many Perl scripts & ported them over without any significant difficulties. The resource kits for NT/W2K are your valuable friends in these efforts as well. -----Original Message----- From: Honeycutt, Michael [mailto:MichaelHoneycutt@NC.SLR.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2001 7:43 AM To: 'toasters(a)mathworks.com' Subject: Quota Notifier Does anyone know of a program or tool that I could use to report to my users when they are close to their quota limit? These are NT clients, so I need something that will run from a windows platform. I have seen the perl scripts on the NOW site, but I am not familiar enough with Sun to make those scripts run correctly. Thanks. Michael Honeycutt MCSE/A+ NT/Exchange Engineer IBM Global Services

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Quota Notifier
by Honeycutt, Michael 08 May '01

08 May '01

Does anyone know of a program or tool that I could use to report to my users when they are close to their quota limit? These are NT clients, so I need something that will run from a windows platform. I have seen the perl scripts on the NOW site, but I am not familiar enough with Sun to make those scripts run correctly. Thanks. Michael Honeycutt MCSE/A+ NT/Exchange Engineer IBM Global Services

1 0

RE: Maximum volume size
by Wedge, Cliff 07 May '01

07 May '01

What docs are you reading? Thanks, Cliff Cliff Wedge Technical Publications Manager Hardware Group Network Appliance 408.822.6839 cliff.wedge(a)netapp.com -----Original Message----- From: Leigh David Heyman [mailto:leigh@ai.mit.edu] Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 1:56 PM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: Maximum volume size So, I've been through some docs, and they seem to say that the maximum "recommended" size of a single volume is 250G. With 36G drives this equates to basically 1 volume per shelf???!?! Is this correct, or has the documentation in this regard not been updated? Does anyon know what this "recommendation" is based on? It doesn't seem very efficient. -Leigh ----------------------------- A nasty looking dwarf throws a knife at you.

1 0

Backup trouble - "Compression page" support
by Jered Heeschen 07 May '01

07 May '01

I connected a Magstar 3590 tape drive to the external SCSI port on an F760 running DataONTAP 6.02, and have been having trouble getting the filer to do more than recogize the tape's existence. The drive is recognized when I execute "mt -f nrst0a status", and shows up as I'd expect in "sysconfig -t", but any other tape operation fails. When I execute any "mt" command (including "status") I get the follownig error on the console: " [...:tape_admin:error]: tape 0.0: doesn't support compression page". I've tried mt with rewind and offline, and both fail. Attempting a dump yields a message that the tape is not writeable or is broken, and requests a new one. I've tried this with two different 3590 drives, two different SCSI cables, and three different tapes. I've also cycled through the different tape deivces (rst0a, urst0h, nrst0l, etc.) with no change. Anyone have an idea of what else I could try to get the tape drive and the F760 to get along? Jered Heeschen heeschen(a)us.ibm.com

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