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13514 discussions

RE: Piecing together a netapp on the cheap - PART II
by Mike Sphar 14 Jun '04

14 Jun '04

Fwiw, what we've done at my company for some of those sets of data that just aren't *worthy* of being put on a Netapp, is we've also picked up some SNAP servers. They're basically a cheaper lower-end version of Netapps. (A *lot* cheaper, unfortunately, as now I often have to defend why we need to upgrade the netapp rather than "just buy a few more SNAP servers".) They don't seem to scale nearly as well as the netapps in terms of performance when there are many concurrent users, but for lower-end storage we've been fairly successful with them so far. http://www.snapappliance.com/ <http://www.snapappliance.com/> I think there are several of these low-end appliance solutions on the market now. Snap is just the one we've had experience with here. -- Mike Sphar - Sr Systems Administrator - Remedy, a BMC Software Company

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Piecing together a netapp on the cheap - PART II
by Joe Schmoe 14 Jun '04

14 Jun '04

Thanks for your help so far. Let me give some more details and answer some of the points you all have raised. First, I am looking for cheap and large - and am willing to sacrifice speed to get it. Second, I am very intrigued by SnapMirror (replication over WAN) and SnapShot copies (point in time backups). The reason I don't just build my own little unix fileservers with linux or FreeBSD is that I don't see how GNU tools and scripting can replicate the functionality of snapmirror and snapshot copies. Maybe I'm wrong ? So, I see that my initial plan is ill advised - you have pointed out that the disk shelves that NetApp ships are not just JABODs, but have intelligence in them - I did not know that the RAID striping was done in the shelf - I thought all RAID and logic was housed in the head unit and it just accessed big stacks of disks. So at this point, my questions are as follows: 1. Is there any reasonable implementation of snapmirror / snapshot copies in free UNIX OSs ? That is, can I get netapp like features out of a normal NFS fileserver ? 2. When I see netapp quote a certain capacity for its filers, like 96TB for the NearStore R200, does that simply mean that they can get to 96TB using the largest currently available IDE drives, and that once larger drives are available that number will naturally go up ? OR does it mean there is some logical limitation in place on the unit that will keep it from going above 96TB ? 3. What is the absolute cheapest IDE based NAS that netapp has put out ? Is it the NearStore R100 ? What if I bought the head unit and shelves from netapp (or netapp branded from ebay), but used my own 400gig hitachi IDE drives ? - I see a 7TB R100 on ebay right now for $78,500 - which is completely absurd. My 4TB freeBSD fileserver at home cost about $5k ... Again, many thanks. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger

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FW: Piecing together a NetApp on the cheap (with IDE) ?
by Jeff Asher 14 Jun '04

14 Jun '04

I think that the F740 only scales to 1 TB raw storage. To get to 16 TB you need to look at a newer, larger head and those aren't cheap. I believe that the FAS960 is the cheapest head that supports more than 16 TB of storage outside of clustering. The list price on a FAS960 is somewhere north of $80K. All-in-all, I probably wouldn't attempt this with a NetApp. This probably isn't workable. An F740 won't even boot if you try to use some parts that are supported in the F800 series. They are very particular about what is allowed and what will boot. I've found that if you can get the system to boot all the way, then you can probably make it work. I definitely wouldn't bet more than $0.50 on it though. You would be better off using linux, samba, and NFS. If you have to have an iSCSI target, look at www.stringbeansoftware.com <http://www.stringbeansoftware.com/> . They make iSCSI target software for Windows, but I don't know about *nix. ________________________________ From: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com [mailto:owner-toasters@mathworks.com] On Behalf Of Joe Schmoe Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 8:17 PM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: Piecing together a NetApp on the cheap (with IDE) ? I want to put together a very cheap, yet very high capacity NAS. Some of the advanced features of NetApps (like data replication over WAN, etc.) have really caught my eye, but the prices are just too much for my budget. I plan on leveraging the low cost of IDE storage. I have noticed the existence of third party disk shelves/JBODs that accept IDE disks in the front, but present a SCSI interface out the back. So my question is, would it be reasonable for me to buy a very cheap, old NetApp head unit off of ebay (like an F740 for $400) and then attach several of these SCSI enclosures packed with IDE disks to it ? Pesumably, four loaded enclosures at 4TB each (10 400gig IDEs) would give me 16TB, which is very attractive ... Let's set aside the philosophy issue of sourcing third party parts and the advice netapp has regarding that - I am simply interested if this idea is _workable_. The reason I am not looking at the native IDE NetApp units is that they are too new and are not available on ebay for hundreds of dollars. Also, I have no idea if this is even acceptable to NetApp in terms of licensing - do they support ebay purchased gear in any capacity ? Your comments and suggestions, even if tangiental, are greatly appreciated. ________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger <http://messenger.yahoo.com/>

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14 Jun '04

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RE: Piecing together a NetApp on the cheap (with IDE) ?
by Timothy Sesow 14 Jun '04

14 Jun '04

Keep in mind that the enclosures that NetApp uses have internal intelligence that the Filer head talks to. Also, the software expects hardware to be setup in a certain manner and behave accordingly. So, the ability of certain enclosures to work with an F740 would be suspect and you would definitely need to have a DataONTAP version that supports the shelves. Most enclosures have a different interface than from other vendors. NetApp gets its enclosures from various people and they have to do a lot of software just to get them to work reliabily. Apart from the technical issues, I have looked at the prices between the "cheap" JBOD and the NetApp R200 series systems. Yes the "cheap" JBOD costs about 1/2 as much, but it takes a LOT more time to install and maintain. For most (???) sites, I think you get a false economy. For a small subset of sites, there may be the skill and labor to make it justifiable (universities come to mind, cheap or free labor from grad students and low budgets, but then NetApp probably gives them a big discount). Assuming you did get it to work, then support from NetApp would be non-standard, if at all. My best guess is that licensing would probably not be a problem, assuming you don't try to resell any of this. -----Original Message----- From: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com on behalf of Joe Schmoe Sent: Fri 6/11/2004 6:17 PM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: Piecing together a NetApp on the cheap (with IDE) ? I want to put together a very cheap, yet very high capacity NAS. Some of the advanced features of NetApps (like data replication over WAN, etc.) have really caught my eye, but the prices are just too much for my budget. I plan on leveraging the low cost of IDE storage. I have noticed the existence of third party disk shelves/JBODs that accept IDE disks in the front, but present a SCSI interface out the back. So my question is, would it be reasonable for me to buy a very cheap, old NetApp head unit off of ebay (like an F740 for $400) and then attach several of these SCSI enclosures packed with IDE disks to it ? Pesumably, four loaded enclosures at 4TB each (10 400gig IDEs) would give me 16TB, which is very attractive ... Let's set aside the philosophy issue of sourcing third party parts and the advice netapp has regarding that - I am simply interested if this idea is _workable_. The reason I am not looking at the native IDE NetApp units is that they are too new and are not available on ebay for hundreds of dollars. Also, I have no idea if this is even acceptable to NetApp in terms of licensing - do they support ebay purchased gear in any capacity ? Your comments and suggestions, even if tangiental, are greatly appreciated. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger

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14 Jun '04

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oracle 9i cluster using iScsi?
by Aditya 11 Jun '04

11 Jun '04

Anyone have experience(s) running an Oracle 9i cluster with data stored via iScsi? on a netapp? with Solaris or RedHat? We already run iScsi for other things and have no experience (or interest) in DAFS just for Oracle. We're trying to replace Sun 3310 RAID arrays with network-attached storage... Thanks, Adi

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RE: Defraging the excahgne DB
by Waters, G Scott THE LOG.SEC TEAM 09 Jun '04

09 Jun '04

Don't forget there are BIG differences between a FILER 'WAFL SCAN REALLOCATE' and an "ESEUTIL /d". In general it is a good rule to offline defrag your Exchange databases on a regular basis - it reclaims unused space. I don't know about others, but for me it can reclaim 10GBs of disk space. It is just a nice coincidence that performing an ESEUTIL defrag lays down a new copy of the database on the FILER and the LAYOUT ratio by definition is low. My point is that (in my opinion) just doing a WAFL SCAN REALLOCATE (provided you can get it to work) isn't enough. Eventually you need to run an ESEUTIL. - Scott W. -----Original Message----- From: Borders, Rich [mailto:Rich.Borders@netapp.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 9:28 AM To: Mark Simmons; SKIP HOFMANN Cc: avarni(a)tech.cj.com; Waters, G Scott THE LOG.SEC TEAM; toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: RE: Defraging the excahgne DB < I am replying in-line > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Simmons [mailto:mds@gbnet.net] > Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 7:45 AM > To: SKIP HOFMANN > Cc: 'avarni(a)tech.cj.com'; Waters, G Scott THE LOG.SEC TEAM; > Borders, Rich; toasters(a)mathworks.com > Subject: Re: Defraging the excahgne DB > > Turning the question around, why would it not be safe to > defragment a file on the filer? Filer defrag requires two things ( as a general rule ): 20 percent volume space free, and no snapshots. The rest is shuffling blocks into a more application friendly pattern. > From the point of view of the client nothing should change surely? If you do offline defrags and meet the above requirements, you will effectively have an offline application and a well organized 'efficient' database afterwards. > If it did, that would be a fairly significant problem with > all files, not just Exchange's database. Technically, you can defrag a file, or the volume. The wafl scan reallocate function is trying to get the blocks closer to their layer 0 and one pointers. Defrags are really only a problem if you don't get the first two pre-req's right. > > SKIP HOFMANN wrote: > > >If you use Waffle scan then this defrags the entire vol > right? See above. > And if so is > >it safe to use on your exchange DB? Yes. > >At least on 6.3.2 -- I've noticed that WAFL SCAN REALLOCATE will > >'pause' indefinately IFF you're over your snapshot reserve. It is usually a funciton of not finding any blocks that aren't in worst fragmented shape that what you are already in. A factor of 20% free volume space with NO snapshots all but ensures this will not happen. > Otherwise > >I've run this many times with no problems. Make sure you aren't > >over your snapshot reserve and your scan should 'continue'. You should have no snapshots. > > > >On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, Waters, G Scott THE LOG.SEC TEAM wrote: > > > >] > >] WOW ... this is the exact opposite of what NetApp support told me. > >] > >] On a volume used for storing Exchange data, the WAFL SCAN > REALLOCATE > >command > >] will never complete. No one in NGS support should have told you it will never complete. In 6.3 and greater, it was more optimized and cleaned up, but that was a testamanet to the way block handling was done and some major efficiencies that were built into the OS of Data OnTap. > It goes for a while and then stalls. See above. > >] We monitor the layout ratios weekly and schedule down time > to perform an > >] offline DEFRAG every 4 - 6 weeks. The remarkable thing about an offline defrag is that it effectively copies the entire mailstore in application defrag back to the Filer. This means that the application is defraged as it is written. The wafl is defragged due to the nature of the blockmap and nvram/journaling. It is almost perfect. > >] This is all based on information received at the time ... > If NetApp has > >] fixed this then someone enlighten me. It is fixed, and getting better. Keep your eye open as there will be some new things to come also. I would also like to offer a thinking 'outside the box' and say that it is a cool idea to QSM the mail store from one volume to another since a QSM is a process that is going to defrag on WAFL ( not application though ) and then update on a scheduled basis. Once snapmirrored, you can stop and quiesce the application, then quiesce and break the QSM and that makes the destination read / writable. You point the exchange server to the destination, and voila, you have a reallocate and only a short downtime. > >] > >] - Scott W. That is all for now. /rich

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by Mr. Walter Taylor 08 Jun '04

08 Jun '04

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NO MORE PAYING EXPENSIVE FOR SOFTWARES WITH US caffeinism
by Mimi Roberto 08 Jun '04

08 Jun '04

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