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Re: High Performance volume configuration
by Rick Hulsey 11 Oct '00

11 Oct '00

They (Netapp) spent a fair amount time in the Netapp 202 class teaching about how it is best to keep a RAID group on one controller. If you have a single RAID group that spans more than one FC-AL interface, it is called a fractured RAID group, and there was even a lab in the class where they went through how to correct a fractured RAID group and put the disks back on one FC-AL controller. It looks like the configuration that was used in the benchmark was a single volume that had 2 RAID groups (RAID group 0, and RAID group 1, presumably), and each of these RAID groups was cabled up to separate interfaces. I'm guessing that this configuration would yield a filesystem that is striped across both FC-AL interfaces. Since the RAID calculations are done at the RAID group level rather than at the volume level it makes sense that more than one RAID calculation can be done in parallel. Based on that assumption, splitting a volume across 2 controllers (while preventing RAID group fracturing) should improve performance. Rick Hulsey Southwest Airlines 2425 Wyman Mail Stop 4DC Dallas, Tx., 75235 rick.hulsey(a)wnco.com (214) 792-7188 Office (972) 880-6882 Cell (800) 915-3747 Pager >>> Graydon Dodson <grdodson(a)lexmark.com> 10/09/00 04:22PM >>> > I also had a 760 survive doing 17,000 nfs ops/second once. ... When running compiles, it is not unusual for us to see numbers over 22,000 on the op-panel of our 760. Anyone know where the top end of an 840 is? Support has been unable to answer that one for us. So in our move to an 840 I want to configure it's volume for maximum performance. The ground rules are two FC-AL adapters, seven full trays of 18G drives. All one volume is very desirable. Now the SPECsfs97 benchmark on the 840 states: * The F1 filesystem was composed of two RAID groups, each containing 17 data disks and one parity disk. Two spare disks were present * The F1 filesystem was striped across both disk controllers Since I have to assume that NetApp would use a high performance architecture for the benchmark I am guessing that this is the way to go, but there is quite a bit of detail missing. Is it a good or bad idea to split a raid group over two FC-AL interfaces? What does "striped across both disk controllers" mean? If there are spare disks (same size) on both FC-AL interfaces and a disk fails Which one is used to rebuild? (Same FC-AL or random choice) Is it a good or bad idea to split a volume over multiple FC-AL interfaces? The need for speed Graydon Dodson (606) 232-6483 grdodson(a)lexmark.com Lexmark International Inc.

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RE: Mac G4 with NetApp
by Mike Sphar 11 Oct '00

11 Oct '00

Actually, I've worked with TotalNet before in the past as well, though we didn't use the Appletalk features. It's been a while, but I'm almost positive that Totalnet could be pointed at NT domain controllers for authentication. The question would be whether the appletalk module would utilize that as well. We were pretty happy with Totalnet as I recall. The only issue we had was that it sprinkled little .tn<something> hidden files everywhere that we had to remember to remove before burning our final software releases to CD. Speaking of CAP, I did a little checking up on it, and it does appear to be falling by the wayside. Even one of the major contributors says he uses Netatalk instead now. -- Mike Sphar - Sr Systems Administrator - Engineering Support Services, BOFH, GWP, MCP, MCP+I, MCSE, BFD -----Original Message----- From: Knight, Graham [mailto:Graham.Knight@netapp.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 2:43 PM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: RE: Mac G4 with NetApp When I was with Lockheed we were faced with a similar dilemma. We tested a number of Unix based solutions. The best we found was the "totalnet advanced server" by Syntax software ( www.syntax.com <http://www.syntax.com> ). It can take an NFS mount served by a Netapp and export it to a Mac. CAP has fallen badly behind and I honestly don't think it will ever catch up with the level of support that it gets. There are serious file locking and file rename problems with CAP and Microsoft applications. We never had the same type of problems with Syntax. To solve the specific problem as I understood it (need to use NT authentication for the NFS mounted Appletalk share (Phew!)), I think you would have to bundle something like Syntax software with some sort of LDAP solution pointing to the PDC for user authentication. Not an easy problem to solve. It could be that Syntax has a solution nowadays. It's been a couple years since I looked into this. I don't have anything to do with Syntax (Neither does Netapp to my knowledge) I just used it, and it worked well for Macintosh services. It might be a good place to start the search for the solution to the problem. Graham -----Original Message----- From: Mike Sphar [mailto:mikey@remedy.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 2:58 PM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: RE: Mac G4 with NetApp Ah, my mistake. Thanks for the correction. I only played with the Services for Macintosh a little bit, and I foolishly assumed you could re-share a mounted network share. Also, now that I think about it, we used to use CAP a few years ago when we needed such things and I remember it being pretty reliable and easy to maintain. Netatalk is also supposed to be good, but I've never used it. Generally, my preference is to install new services on a server when I can rather than be forced to deploy and support new client software. Letting the client OS access data using its native capabilities usually results in less maintenance and support headaches. (Ugh, now I'm having flashbacks of supporting ChameleonNFS on hundreds of machines.) -- Mike Sphar - Sr Systems Administrator - Engineering Support Services, BOFH, GWP, MCP, MCP+I, MCSE, BFD -----Original Message----- From: Benn, Paul [mailto:paul.benn@netapp.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 1:50 PM To: 'Mike Sphar'; toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: RE: Mac G4 with NetApp Just to clarify.... Exporting a CIFS share (whether from a filer or another NT server) to AFP won't work with the Microsoft service for Macintosh (at least it didn't with NT4 and AutoExNT was no help either). I tried an early W2K beta but it was no help either. The Microsoft service only supports local disk. Sorry :( As for a gateway type product, I've only heard of NFS/AFP solutions. Paul Benn Network Appliance -----Original Message----- From: Mike Sphar [mailto:mikey@remedy.com] Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 1:24 PM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: RE: Mac G4 with Netapp As others have mentions, you could either make sure you have a good NFS or CIFS client for the Mac installed. Or, depending on how much traffic you expect from the Mac and how many macs you have, it might be easier to re-share the Netapp through a Windows or UNIX box. Netatalk I believe is the name of a free appletalk file server for UNIX. And Windows NT/2000 Server also comes with a free Services for Macintosh package as well, I believe. -- Mike Sphar - Sr Systems Administrator - Engineering Support Services, BOFH, GWP, MCP, MCP+I, MCSE, BFD -----Original Message----- From: Mathew Anderson [mailto:mathew@nm.net] Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 9:59 AM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: Mac G4 with Netapp Has anyone tried to get a G4 to mount a netapp share? We have the netapp setup with both nfs and cifs, and we are using a PDC. Any pointers on where to start? (apples KB does not help at all).. Thanks -Mathew Mathew Anderson Systems Administration NM Technet Oso Grande Technologies, Inc. mathew(a)nm.net mathew(a)osogrande.net

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RE: Mac G4 with NetApp
by Knight, Graham 10 Oct '00

10 Oct '00

When I was with Lockheed we were faced with a similar dilemma. We tested a number of Unix based solutions. The best we found was the "totalnet advanced server" by Syntax software ( www.syntax.com <http://www.syntax.com> ). It can take an NFS mount served by a Netapp and export it to a Mac. CAP has fallen badly behind and I honestly don't think it will ever catch up with the level of support that it gets. There are serious file locking and file rename problems with CAP and Microsoft applications. We never had the same type of problems with Syntax. To solve the specific problem as I understood it (need to use NT authentication for the NFS mounted Appletalk share (Phew!)), I think you would have to bundle something like Syntax software with some sort of LDAP solution pointing to the PDC for user authentication. Not an easy problem to solve. It could be that Syntax has a solution nowadays. It's been a couple years since I looked into this. I don't have anything to do with Syntax (Neither does Netapp to my knowledge) I just used it, and it worked well for Macintosh services. It might be a good place to start the search for the solution to the problem. Graham -----Original Message----- From: Mike Sphar [mailto:mikey@remedy.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 2:58 PM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: RE: Mac G4 with NetApp Ah, my mistake. Thanks for the correction. I only played with the Services for Macintosh a little bit, and I foolishly assumed you could re-share a mounted network share. Also, now that I think about it, we used to use CAP a few years ago when we needed such things and I remember it being pretty reliable and easy to maintain. Netatalk is also supposed to be good, but I've never used it. Generally, my preference is to install new services on a server when I can rather than be forced to deploy and support new client software. Letting the client OS access data using its native capabilities usually results in less maintenance and support headaches. (Ugh, now I'm having flashbacks of supporting ChameleonNFS on hundreds of machines.) -- Mike Sphar - Sr Systems Administrator - Engineering Support Services, BOFH, GWP, MCP, MCP+I, MCSE, BFD -----Original Message----- From: Benn, Paul [mailto:paul.benn@netapp.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 1:50 PM To: 'Mike Sphar'; toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: RE: Mac G4 with NetApp Just to clarify.... Exporting a CIFS share (whether from a filer or another NT server) to AFP won't work with the Microsoft service for Macintosh (at least it didn't with NT4 and AutoExNT was no help either). I tried an early W2K beta but it was no help either. The Microsoft service only supports local disk. Sorry :( As for a gateway type product, I've only heard of NFS/AFP solutions. Paul Benn Network Appliance -----Original Message----- From: Mike Sphar [mailto:mikey@remedy.com] Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 1:24 PM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: RE: Mac G4 with Netapp As others have mentions, you could either make sure you have a good NFS or CIFS client for the Mac installed. Or, depending on how much traffic you expect from the Mac and how many macs you have, it might be easier to re-share the Netapp through a Windows or UNIX box. Netatalk I believe is the name of a free appletalk file server for UNIX. And Windows NT/2000 Server also comes with a free Services for Macintosh package as well, I believe. -- Mike Sphar - Sr Systems Administrator - Engineering Support Services, BOFH, GWP, MCP, MCP+I, MCSE, BFD -----Original Message----- From: Mathew Anderson [mailto:mathew@nm.net] Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 9:59 AM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: Mac G4 with Netapp Has anyone tried to get a G4 to mount a netapp share? We have the netapp setup with both nfs and cifs, and we are using a PDC. Any pointers on where to start? (apples KB does not help at all).. Thanks -Mathew Mathew Anderson Systems Administration NM Technet Oso Grande Technologies, Inc. mathew(a)nm.net mathew(a)osogrande.net

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RE: Backups of NT partitions to Unix
by Benn, Paul 10 Oct '00

10 Oct '00

One more thing (thanks to my buddy Ernst Bokkelkamp for reminding me privately).... Check to make sure that the NetWorker service accounts have permission to access the filer. By default, the local system account is used, which won't work. Setup a special domain account for your NetWorker user and pop it into the domain's backup administrators group. Put that global group into the filer's local Backup administrator group. Now configure the NetWorker services to use this account. This is the most common NT backup issue, by the way. Regards, Paul Benn Network Appliance -----Original Message----- From: Benn, Paul Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 8:43 AM To: 'Watts, James A.'; Toasters Mailing list Subject: RE: Backups of NT partitions to Unix Hello Jim, Yes, the paper is a little long in the tooth with respect to product versions and performance numbers. The basic information should still be relevant, though. Here's a link to the paper: http://www.netapp.com/tech_library/3052.html Anyway, you'll need to "front end" the filer with another NT server loaded with the NetWorker client. When I wrote the paper, UNC paths weren't supported but now they are. You can enter the UNC path directly rather than map a drive letter using the AutoExecNT service from the resource kit. The platform (UNIX or NT) of the NetWorker server doesn't matter. What matters is the platform of the server running the NetWorker client on the machine configured to "front end" the filer. Did you use a UNC path or a mapped drive letter in your test? I don't know if it's the same problem but when I was testing NetWorker to write the paper, I found that the drive letter mapping was lost for unknown reasons as soon as the backup started. The result was "0 files backed up." The reason we use AutoExNT is twofold. First of all, it eliminated this problem and secondly. Secondly, it allows one to map a drive letter as a service rather than having to leave a user logged in at the NT machine (drive letters are mapped at login). It sounds like you may already know but I'll restate it anyway. If you backup a qtree with NTFS style permissions via NFS, you will loose the file permissions and file attributes (it would be like backing up a FAT partition less the DOS file attributes). Backing up a qtree with UNIX style permissions over CIFS will, however, retain the UNIX permissions. The filer also tracks an archive bit for UNIX data so NT backup apps (NetWorker isn't one of them) relying on the archive bit can run an incremental backup of UNIX data. The bottom line.... if you already have an NT based NetWorker client you should be able to back up your filer without having to buy more software. Regards, Paul Benn Technical Marketing Network Appliance -----Original Message----- From: Watts, James A. [mailto:james.a.watts@gbr.conoco.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 7:38 AM To: Toasters Mailing list Subject: Backups of NT partitions to Unix I've looked through the archive, and also across, but have had problems getting a definitive answer on the following : We have a filer supplying an CIFS partition to an NT4 server. Our Legato ( v5.5.1 ) server is a Sun Solaris 2.6 box. Can we back up the filer to Legato without having to buy additional software ? We have tried so far, but while Legato seems to see the partition it backs up 0 files. I have seen posts about the NetApp white paper describing how to do this, but our Legato support company says this was on an older version of Legato ( I've asked for clarification on whether they mean the functionality has been removed ). The other option is to make the partition both NFS and CIFS, but I'm trying to avoid the pain if possible. Thanks in advance, Jim Watts, Conoco (UK) Ltd.

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RE: Mac G4 with NetApp
by Mike Sphar 10 Oct '00

10 Oct '00

Ah, my mistake. Thanks for the correction. I only played with the Services for Macintosh a little bit, and I foolishly assumed you could re-share a mounted network share. Also, now that I think about it, we used to use CAP a few years ago when we needed such things and I remember it being pretty reliable and easy to maintain. Netatalk is also supposed to be good, but I've never used it. Generally, my preference is to install new services on a server when I can rather than be forced to deploy and support new client software. Letting the client OS access data using its native capabilities usually results in less maintenance and support headaches. (Ugh, now I'm having flashbacks of supporting ChameleonNFS on hundreds of machines.) -- Mike Sphar - Sr Systems Administrator - Engineering Support Services, BOFH, GWP, MCP, MCP+I, MCSE, BFD -----Original Message----- From: Benn, Paul [mailto:paul.benn@netapp.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 1:50 PM To: 'Mike Sphar'; toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: RE: Mac G4 with NetApp Just to clarify.... Exporting a CIFS share (whether from a filer or another NT server) to AFP won't work with the Microsoft service for Macintosh (at least it didn't with NT4 and AutoExNT was no help either). I tried an early W2K beta but it was no help either. The Microsoft service only supports local disk. Sorry :( As for a gateway type product, I've only heard of NFS/AFP solutions. Paul Benn Network Appliance -----Original Message----- From: Mike Sphar [mailto:mikey@remedy.com] Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 1:24 PM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: RE: Mac G4 with Netapp As others have mentions, you could either make sure you have a good NFS or CIFS client for the Mac installed. Or, depending on how much traffic you expect from the Mac and how many macs you have, it might be easier to re-share the Netapp through a Windows or UNIX box. Netatalk I believe is the name of a free appletalk file server for UNIX. And Windows NT/2000 Server also comes with a free Services for Macintosh package as well, I believe. -- Mike Sphar - Sr Systems Administrator - Engineering Support Services, BOFH, GWP, MCP, MCP+I, MCSE, BFD -----Original Message----- From: Mathew Anderson [mailto:mathew@nm.net] Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 9:59 AM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: Mac G4 with Netapp Has anyone tried to get a G4 to mount a netapp share? We have the netapp setup with both nfs and cifs, and we are using a PDC. Any pointers on where to start? (apples KB does not help at all).. Thanks -Mathew Mathew Anderson Systems Administration NM Technet Oso Grande Technologies, Inc. mathew(a)nm.net mathew(a)osogrande.net

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RE: Mac G4 with NetApp
by Benn, Paul 10 Oct '00

10 Oct '00

Just to clarify.... Exporting a CIFS share (whether from a filer or another NT server) to AFP won't work with the Microsoft service for Macintosh (at least it didn't with NT4 and AutoExNT was no help either). I tried an early W2K beta but it was no help either. The Microsoft service only supports local disk. Sorry :( As for a gateway type product, I've only heard of NFS/AFP solutions. Paul Benn Network Appliance -----Original Message----- From: Mike Sphar [mailto:mikey@remedy.com] Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 1:24 PM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: RE: Mac G4 with Netapp As others have mentions, you could either make sure you have a good NFS or CIFS client for the Mac installed. Or, depending on how much traffic you expect from the Mac and how many macs you have, it might be easier to re-share the Netapp through a Windows or UNIX box. Netatalk I believe is the name of a free appletalk file server for UNIX. And Windows NT/2000 Server also comes with a free Services for Macintosh package as well, I believe. -- Mike Sphar - Sr Systems Administrator - Engineering Support Services, BOFH, GWP, MCP, MCP+I, MCSE, BFD -----Original Message----- From: Mathew Anderson [mailto:mathew@nm.net] Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 9:59 AM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: Mac G4 with Netapp Has anyone tried to get a G4 to mount a netapp share? We have the netapp setup with both nfs and cifs, and we are using a PDC. Any pointers on where to start? (apples KB does not help at all).. Thanks -Mathew Mathew Anderson Systems Administration NM Technet Oso Grande Technologies, Inc. mathew(a)nm.net mathew(a)osogrande.net

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mixing 18GB and 36GB drives
by jmiddlebrooks＠datalink.com 10 Oct '00

10 Oct '00

I was told by a Netapp rep that you can not mix 18Gb and 36Gb drives on a F720. This is not true is it as long as you use the correct disk shelves is it? Are there certain memory requirments for the 36Gb drives? Thanks Jason Middlebrooks Systems Engineer Datalink Corp. 888-933-9327 x2970

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RE: Backups of NT partitions to Unix
by Benn, Paul 10 Oct '00

10 Oct '00

Hello Jim, Yes, the paper is a little long in the tooth with respect to product versions and performance numbers. The basic information should still be relevant, though. Here's a link to the paper: http://www.netapp.com/tech_library/3052.html Anyway, you'll need to "front end" the filer with another NT server loaded with the NetWorker client. When I wrote the paper, UNC paths weren't supported but now they are. You can enter the UNC path directly rather than map a drive letter using the AutoExecNT service from the resource kit. The platform (UNIX or NT) of the NetWorker server doesn't matter. What matters is the platform of the server running the NetWorker client on the machine configured to "front end" the filer. Did you use a UNC path or a mapped drive letter in your test? I don't know if it's the same problem but when I was testing NetWorker to write the paper, I found that the drive letter mapping was lost for unknown reasons as soon as the backup started. The result was "0 files backed up." The reason we use AutoExNT is twofold. First of all, it eliminated this problem and secondly. Secondly, it allows one to map a drive letter as a service rather than having to leave a user logged in at the NT machine (drive letters are mapped at login). It sounds like you may already know but I'll restate it anyway. If you backup a qtree with NTFS style permissions via NFS, you will loose the file permissions and file attributes (it would be like backing up a FAT partition less the DOS file attributes). Backing up a qtree with UNIX style permissions over CIFS will, however, retain the UNIX permissions. The filer also tracks an archive bit for UNIX data so NT backup apps (NetWorker isn't one of them) relying on the archive bit can run an incremental backup of UNIX data. The bottom line.... if you already have an NT based NetWorker client you should be able to back up your filer without having to buy more software. Regards, Paul Benn Technical Marketing Network Appliance -----Original Message----- From: Watts, James A. [mailto:james.a.watts@gbr.conoco.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 7:38 AM To: Toasters Mailing list Subject: Backups of NT partitions to Unix I've looked through the archive, and also across, but have had problems getting a definitive answer on the following : We have a filer supplying an CIFS partition to an NT4 server. Our Legato ( v5.5.1 ) server is a Sun Solaris 2.6 box. Can we back up the filer to Legato without having to buy additional software ? We have tried so far, but while Legato seems to see the partition it backs up 0 files. I have seen posts about the NetApp white paper describing how to do this, but our Legato support company says this was on an older version of Legato ( I've asked for clarification on whether they mean the functionality has been removed ). The other option is to make the partition both NFS and CIFS, but I'm trying to avoid the pain if possible. Thanks in advance, Jim Watts, Conoco (UK) Ltd.

1 0

RE: Backups of NT partitions to Unix
by Ljungberg, Anders 10 Oct '00

10 Oct '00

Hi James, This should not be a problem "whatever" version you are using. Specify the shares that you want to backup in the client definition in Legato. I.e. \\NTBOX\SHARE$\nightly.0 ( were SHARE$ points to the snapshot directory ). Please contact me if you need further assistance. Anders Ljungberg Professional Services Consultant Network Appliance UK Ltd. Tel: 0208 756 6785 -----Original Message----- From: Watts, James A. [mailto:james.a.watts@gbr.conoco.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 4:38 PM To: Toasters Mailing list Subject: Backups of NT partitions to Unix I've looked through the archive, and also across, but have had problems getting a definitive answer on the following : We have a filer supplying an CIFS partition to an NT4 server. Our Legato ( v5.5.1 ) server is a Sun Solaris 2.6 box. Can we back up the filer to Legato without having to buy additional software ? We have tried so far, but while Legato seems to see the partition it backs up 0 files. I have seen posts about the NetApp white paper describing how to do this, but our Legato support company says this was on an older version of Legato ( I've asked for clarification on whether they mean the functionality has been removed ). The other option is to make the partition both NFS and CIFS, but I'm trying to avoid the pain if possible. Thanks in advance, Jim Watts, Conoco (UK) Ltd.

1 0

Backups of NT partitions to Unix
by Watts, James A. 10 Oct '00

10 Oct '00

I've looked through the archive, and also across, but have had problems getting a definitive answer on the following : We have a filer supplying an CIFS partition to an NT4 server. Our Legato ( v5.5.1 ) server is a Sun Solaris 2.6 box. Can we back up the filer to Legato without having to buy additional software ? We have tried so far, but while Legato seems to see the partition it backs up 0 files. I have seen posts about the NetApp white paper describing how to do this, but our Legato support company says this was on an older version of Legato ( I've asked for clarification on whether they mean the functionality has been removed ). The other option is to make the partition both NFS and CIFS, but I'm trying to avoid the pain if possible. Thanks in advance, Jim Watts, Conoco (UK) Ltd.

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