toasters July 2006

toasters@lists.teaparty.net

155 participants
187 discussions

Your message to Alpgruem awaits moderator approval
by alpgruem-bounces＠lists.zugschlus.de 27 Jul '06

27 Jul '06

Your mail to 'Alpgruem' with the subject Returned mail: Data format error Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval. The reason it is being held: Post by non-member to a members-only list Either the message will get posted to the list, or you will receive notification of the moderator's decision. If you would like to cancel this posting, please visit the following URL: http://mailman.lists.zugschlus.de/cgi-bin/mailman/confirm/alpgruem/506d8404…

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NEW JOB OFFER FOR YOU....
by mike clark 27 Jul '06

27 Jul '06

NATURE PAINTS. 112 st. Mary's road, liverpool L192 JG, UNITED KINGDOM (nature_paint(a)myway.com) My name is mikeclark,I am an artist with my wife julie clark,We own Nature paints Art World in London(United Kingdon)I live in London United Kingdom,with my two kids,four cats, one dog and the love of my life my wife julie clark. It is definitely a full house, I have been doing art work since I was a small child That gives me about 23 years of experience I majoredin art in high school and took a few college art courses Most of my work is done in either pencil or airbrush mixed with color pencils.I have recently added designing and creating artwork on the computer,I have been selling my art for the last 3 years and have had my work featured on trading cards, prints and in magazines,I have sold in galleries and to private collectors from all around the world.I am always facingseriousdifficulties when itcomes to selling my art works to Americans,they are always offering to pay with MONEY ORDER,which is difficult for me to cash here in London United Kingdom. I am looking for a representative in the states who will be working for me as a partime worker and i will be willing to pay 10% for every transaction,which wouldnt affect ur present state of work,someone who would help me recieve payments from my customers in the states,i mean someone that is responsible and reliable,because the cost of coming to the state and getting payments is very expensive,i am working on setting up a branch in the state,so for now i need a representative in the united state who will be handling the payment aspect for our company. These payments are in money order and they would come to you in your name if you are willing to assist as a representative, so all you need do is cash the money order deduct your percentage and Western Union Charges then wire therestback. But the problem ihave is trust,But i have my way of getting anyone that gets away with our money,i mean the FBI branch in Washington gets involve It wouldnt cost you any amount,you are to receive payments which will be sent to you by fedex or ups from my business patners, which would come in form of a money order then you are to cash it and send the cash to me via Western Union or Money Gram. NOTE All charges will be deducted from the money so you are rest assured that you wouldnt send a dime out of your personal money.If you are interested,please get back to me by sending the following APPLICATION FIRST NAME.............LAST NAME.................... ADDRESS............................. CIT STATE.............. ZIP CODE......... COUNTRY............. PHONE NUMBER (S)...................... ARE YOU EMPLOYED OR SELF EMPLOY..YES/NO DO YOU HAVE ACHECKING ACCOUNT...YES/NO DO YOU HAVE ACCOUNT WITH WELLS FARGO..YES/NO DO YOU HAVE ACCOUNT WITH BANK OF AMERICA..YES/NO DO YOU HAVE ACCOUNT WITH WACHOVIA BANK...YES/NO BEST MEANS OF COMUNICATION...PHONE/EMAIL ................ GENDER..... MARITAL STATUS................ AGE............. NATIONALITY.............. Note:Reply to ( nature_paint(a)myway.com) Regards Nature Paints Art WORLD ¡Miles de amigos con tus mismas aficiones! http://www.latinchat.com

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PART TIME JOB OFFER FOR YOU....
by markclarkartwork 27 Jul '06

27 Jul '06

NATURE PAINTS. 112 st. Mary's road, liverpool L192 JG, UNITED KINGDOM (nature_paint(a)myway.com) My name is markclark,I am an artist with my wife julie clark,We own Nature paints Art World in London(United Kingdon)I live in London United Kingdom,with my two kids,four cats, one dog and the love of my life my wife julie clark. It is definitely a full house, I have been doing art work since I was a small child That gives me about 23 years of experience I majoredin art in high school and took a few college art courses Most of my work is done in either pencil or airbrush mixed with color pencils.I have recently added designing and creating artwork on the computer,I have been selling my art for the last 3 years and have had my work featured on trading cards, prints and in magazines,I have sold in galleries and to private collectors from all around the world.I am always facingseriousdifficulties when itcomes to selling my art works to Americans,they are always offering to pay with MONEY ORDER,which is difficult for me to cash here in London United Kingdom. I am looking for a representative in the states who will be working for me as a partime worker and i will be willing to pay 10% for every transaction,which wouldnt affect ur present state of work,someone who would help me recieve payments from my customers in the states,i mean someone that is responsible and reliable,because the cost of coming to the state and getting payments is very expensive,i am working on setting up a branch in the state,so for now i need a representative in the united state who will be handling the payment aspect for our company. These payments are in money order and they would come to you in your name if you are willing to assist as a representative, so all you need do is cash the money order deduct your percentage and Western Union Charges then wire therestback. But the problem ihave is trust,But i have my way of getting anyone that gets away with our money,i mean the FBI branch in Washington gets involve It wouldnt cost you any amount,you are to receive payments which will be sent to you by fedex or ups from my business patners, which would come in form of a money order then you are to cash it and send the cash to me via Western Union or Money Gram. NOTE All charges will be deducted from the money so you are rest assured that you wouldnt send a dime out of your personal money.If you are interested,please get back to me by sending the following APPLICATION FIRST NAME.............LAST NAME.................... ADDRESS............................. CIT STATE.............. ZIP CODE......... COUNTRY............. PHONE NUMBER (S)...................... ARE YOU EMPLOYED OR SELF EMPLOY..YES/NO DO YOU HAVE ACHECKING ACCOUNT...YES/NO DO YOU HAVE ACCOUNT WITH WELLS FARGO..YES/NO DO YOU HAVE ACCOUNT WITH BANK OF AMERICA..YES/NO DO YOU HAVE ACCOUNT WITH WACHOVIA BANK...YES/NO BEST MEANS OF COMUNICATION...PHONE/EMAIL ................. GENDER..... MARITAL STATUS................ AGE............. NATIONALITY.............. Note:Reply to ( nature_paint(a)myway.com) Regards Nature Paints Art WORLD

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RE: Storage space overheads!
by Holland, William L 27 Jul '06

27 Jul '06

In a typical solution you lose 10% for WAFL overhead (disk serialization, mbr, etc). You then lose 5% for aggregate snap reserve and 20% for volume snap reserve. Actually, you don't lose the snap reserve space - this space is reserved to ensure enough space for typical snapshots (think of them as online backups). The snap reserve space can be changed. For instance, I always set the aggregate snap reserve to 0% -- I cannot foresee any situation where I would want to snap restore an entire aggregate. These numbers are for NAS. If you are using SAN (iSCSI or FCP LUNs) then you lose 50% of available space to be able to accommodate at least one full snapshot of the LUNs. To someone first starting out with NetApp solutions, these numbers sound horrible, I know I did. However, now that I've been using them for a few years I love it. The flexibility you get in disaster recovery, transferring data to other filers, etc is very much worth the tradeoff. -----Original Message----- From: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com [mailto:owner-toasters@mathworks.com] On Behalf Of margesimpson(a)hushmail.com Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 9:38 PM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: Storage space overheads! Hi all: Can anyone please give me total NetApp overheads including, file systems, aggr reserve, snap reserve, wafl overhead, parity disks (raid_dp), etc, etc. say, 10 x 100GB = 1000GB total. what usable space should i finally get after all those overheads. Can anyone give me proper figures/ math and proper break up of above figure? I heard NetApp solution has lot of disk overheads! Thank you in advance. Marge. Concerned about your privacy? Instantly send FREE secure email, no account required http://www.hushmail.com/send?l=480 Get the best prices on SSL certificates from Hushmail https://www.hushssl.com?l=485

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thank you very much
by robert KOWALSKI 27 Jul '06

27 Jul '06

thank you very much ---------------------------------------------------- Zadbaj o bezpieczne wakacje nad wodą! Zobacz jak jest Bezpiecznie z NIVEA i WOPR - Kliknij: http://klik.wp.pl/?adr=www.sport.wp.pl%2Fnivea-wopr.html&sid=828

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FRIEND
by DE MEL HIRANYA 27 Jul '06

27 Jul '06

I have a new email address!You can now email me at: dddmeeel098(a)yahoo.com I WANT YOU TO DISTRIBUTE MY FUND TO CHARITY ON MY BEHALF,REPLY WITH DETAILS - DE MEL HIRANYA

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failure notice
by MAILER-DAEMON＠bouncehost 27 Jul '06

27 Jul '06

Hi. This is the qmail-send program at bouncehost. I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following addresses. This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out. <269elias(a)absolutemotion.com>: 140.99.53.7 does not like recipient. Remote host said: 550 sorry, no mailbox here by that name (#5.1.1) Giving up on 140.99.53.7. --- Enclosed are the original headers of the message.

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Storage space overheads!
by margesimpson＠hushmail.com 27 Jul '06

27 Jul '06

Hi all: Can anyone please give me total NetApp overheads including, file systems, aggr reserve, snap reserve, wafl overhead, parity disks (raid_dp), etc, etc. say, 10 x 100GB = 1000GB total. what usable space should i finally get after all those overheads. Can anyone give me proper figures/ math and proper break up of above figure? I heard NetApp solution has lot of disk overheads! Thank you in advance. Marge. Concerned about your privacy? Instantly send FREE secure email, no account required http://www.hushmail.com/send?l=480 Get the best prices on SSL certificates from Hushmail https://www.hushssl.com?l=485

3 2

RE: Storage space overheads!
by George, Andrew 27 Jul '06

27 Jul '06

Also...if your using aggregates take another 5% off the top for Agg snapshot _____ From: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com [mailto:owner-toasters@mathworks.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Walker Sent: Thursday, 27 July 2006 1:52 PM To: Glenn Dekhayser; margesimpson(a)hushmail.com Cc: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: RE: Storage space overheads! 10% overhead for WAFL, FYI. As to what Glenn says, I agree - start with storage space needed, then figure performance. Don't fill the remaining volume beyond 90% if possible (unless it's all archive-type data). As for your question before: If you use RaidDP, you'll lose 2 disks for every raid group (typically 16 disks total, or 14D+2P) The disks are right-sized (to ensure that every manufacturer has disks with the same size, start to end - ie, Hitachi and Seagate drives are NOT the same size in # blocks) You're left with # data disks * disk size, MINUS 10% WAFL overhead. After that, factor in snapshot reserve (20% by default) and space reservations if needed. In the case of 320GB ATA disks, the right size is actually 274400 MB (the 320GB is a raw or unformatted capacity - you can thank the ATA drive manufacturers for that misleading info). A RG of size 16 would net you 3457440MB after 10% overhead. If you don't need snapshots, that's your usable space - if you do need snapshot reserve, just subtract that from the total. Using LUNs (especially with snapdrive) changes the rules because of the 2x overhead it enforces. This is actually changed in with something called fractional reserve (snapdrive supports fractional reserve with SD 4.0 and ONTAP 7.1) The reason for all of the overhead: data protection. Netapp doesn't sell space - they sell insurance. They sell protection from data loss FIRST, then performance\manageability, and lastly space. I would say that NetApp has no more overhead than any other vendor that has snapshot like capabilities (and probably less given that everyone else is a copy-on-write implementation thusfar). Glenn _____ From: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com [mailto:owner-toasters@mathworks.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Dekhayser Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 11:11 PM To: margesimpson(a)hushmail.com Cc: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: RE: Storage space overheads! The most overused sentence: "It depends". When I design Netapp solutions, I work backwards from how much usable storage I'm going to need for the next 12-18 months. Then I also determine what kind of aggregate IOPS I'm going to need from my disks. From that, it's a fairly simple calculation. OK, so it's not; I have a complicated excel spreadsheet that I worked on for about a month before I was confident the answers were close enough to use in designs; but before you start putting everything together capacity wise you should have a good idea of how many disks you're going to need to satisfy your performance requirements. There's the obvious parity or dual-parity overhead, and the hot spare (or multiple hot spares, depending on how many disks you've got in the system). There's the snapshot reserve for NAS volumes (20% by default, you may need more or less)- but that reserve depends highly upon the amount of changes and deletes you have in a given volume. If you are using LUNs with snapshots, you need to multiple the size of the LUNs by 2.2 (2x for the overwrite reserve and another 20% for the internal data change rates inside a given lun, again change for your own environment). There's the WAFL RAID overhead; I've never gotten a real good feel for that but let's call it 5%- (anyone care to amend that?) Now also keep in mind that WAFL volumes don't really like to be more than 90% full because of the way they lay down data; I like to keep mine at 80% or lower. That's about all the overheads I can think of. Sound like a lot? Any vendor with snapshot technology is going to have the same issue of reserving loads of space for it, and they will use raid-5, which requires a net loss of one disk every 5-8 disks (and be slow under write load). Netapp goes 14 disks per parity (in either raid4 or dp). And everyone with a hardware raid has some raid overhead. Unless you're using raid 10, but then you're buying twice the disk, aren't you? Bottom line is that Netapp does require you to invest some of your disk in data and physical availability. It's well worth it, and it's comparable to every other enterprise system out there. If all you need is dumb disk with no overhead and no avanced features, there are plenty of RAID-0 solutions out there that will FC connect. Glenn (the other one) _____ From: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com on behalf of margesimpson(a)hushmail.com Sent: Wed 7/26/2006 9:38 PM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: Storage space overheads! Hi all: Can anyone please give me total NetApp overheads including, file systems, aggr reserve, snap reserve, wafl overhead, parity disks (raid_dp), etc, etc. say, 10 x 100GB = 1000GB total. what usable space should i finally get after all those overheads. Can anyone give me proper figures/ math and proper break up of above figure? I heard NetApp solution has lot of disk overheads! Thank you in advance. Marge. Concerned about your privacy? Instantly send FREE secure email, no account required http://www.hushmail.com/send?l=480 Get the best prices on SSL certificates from Hushmail https://www.hushssl.com?l=485

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RE: Storage space overheads!
by Glenn Walker 27 Jul '06

27 Jul '06

10% overhead for WAFL, FYI. As to what Glenn says, I agree - start with storage space needed, then figure performance. Don't fill the remaining volume beyond 90% if possible (unless it's all archive-type data). As for your question before: If you use RaidDP, you'll lose 2 disks for every raid group (typically 16 disks total, or 14D+2P) The disks are right-sized (to ensure that every manufacturer has disks with the same size, start to end - ie, Hitachi and Seagate drives are NOT the same size in # blocks) You're left with # data disks * disk size, MINUS 10% WAFL overhead. After that, factor in snapshot reserve (20% by default) and space reservations if needed. In the case of 320GB ATA disks, the right size is actually 274400 MB (the 320GB is a raw or unformatted capacity - you can thank the ATA drive manufacturers for that misleading info). A RG of size 16 would net you 3457440MB after 10% overhead. If you don't need snapshots, that's your usable space - if you do need snapshot reserve, just subtract that from the total. Using LUNs (especially with snapdrive) changes the rules because of the 2x overhead it enforces. This is actually changed in with something called fractional reserve (snapdrive supports fractional reserve with SD 4.0 and ONTAP 7.1) The reason for all of the overhead: data protection. Netapp doesn't sell space - they sell insurance. They sell protection from data loss FIRST, then performance\manageability, and lastly space. I would say that NetApp has no more overhead than any other vendor that has snapshot like capabilities (and probably less given that everyone else is a copy-on-write implementation thusfar). Glenn ________________________________ From: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com [mailto:owner-toasters@mathworks.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Dekhayser Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 11:11 PM To: margesimpson(a)hushmail.com Cc: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: RE: Storage space overheads! The most overused sentence: "It depends". When I design Netapp solutions, I work backwards from how much usable storage I'm going to need for the next 12-18 months. Then I also determine what kind of aggregate IOPS I'm going to need from my disks. From that, it's a fairly simple calculation. OK, so it's not; I have a complicated excel spreadsheet that I worked on for about a month before I was confident the answers were close enough to use in designs; but before you start putting everything together capacity wise you should have a good idea of how many disks you're going to need to satisfy your performance requirements. There's the obvious parity or dual-parity overhead, and the hot spare (or multiple hot spares, depending on how many disks you've got in the system). There's the snapshot reserve for NAS volumes (20% by default, you may need more or less)- but that reserve depends highly upon the amount of changes and deletes you have in a given volume. If you are using LUNs with snapshots, you need to multiple the size of the LUNs by 2.2 (2x for the overwrite reserve and another 20% for the internal data change rates inside a given lun, again change for your own environment). There's the WAFL RAID overhead; I've never gotten a real good feel for that but let's call it 5%- (anyone care to amend that?) Now also keep in mind that WAFL volumes don't really like to be more than 90% full because of the way they lay down data; I like to keep mine at 80% or lower. That's about all the overheads I can think of. Sound like a lot? Any vendor with snapshot technology is going to have the same issue of reserving loads of space for it, and they will use raid-5, which requires a net loss of one disk every 5-8 disks (and be slow under write load). Netapp goes 14 disks per parity (in either raid4 or dp). And everyone with a hardware raid has some raid overhead. Unless you're using raid 10, but then you're buying twice the disk, aren't you? Bottom line is that Netapp does require you to invest some of your disk in data and physical availability. It's well worth it, and it's comparable to every other enterprise system out there. If all you need is dumb disk with no overhead and no avanced features, there are plenty of RAID-0 solutions out there that will FC connect. Glenn (the other one) ________________________________ From: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com on behalf of margesimpson(a)hushmail.com Sent: Wed 7/26/2006 9:38 PM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: Storage space overheads! Hi all: Can anyone please give me total NetApp overheads including, file systems, aggr reserve, snap reserve, wafl overhead, parity disks (raid_dp), etc, etc. say, 10 x 100GB = 1000GB total. what usable space should i finally get after all those overheads. Can anyone give me proper figures/ math and proper break up of above figure? I heard NetApp solution has lot of disk overheads! Thank you in advance. Marge. Concerned about your privacy? Instantly send FREE secure email, no account required http://www.hushmail.com/send?l=480 Get the best prices on SSL certificates from Hushmail https://www.hushssl.com?l=485

1 0

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toasters July 2006