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13531 discussions

Re: SCSI shelf faults?
by sirbruce＠ix.netcom.com 10 Sep '97

10 Sep '97

On 09/10/97 14:22:11 you wrote: > >I just received the following: > >Wed Sep 10 14:00:00 EST [statd]: *** NOTICE *** > Fault previously reported on SCSI storage shelf attached > to slot 8a has been corrected. >Wed Sep 10 14:00:39 EST [statd]: *** NOTICE *** > Fault reported on SCSI storage shelf attached to slot 8a. > Please check fan and power on shelf. >Wed Sep 10 14:00:41 EST [asup_main]: System Notification mail sent > >What the heck is going on? The first message says that the fault previously >reported was corrected. There was no fault previously reported, and then a >fault gets reported. This is a 630 with a single shelf. Should I be >worried about this? Is the single shelf attached to 8b on the SCSI card? I believe the instructions say it has to be attached to 8a first. I might be wrong, but the message is very similar to those I've seen if you have the shelves cabled incorrectly. I've never seen a system with one shelf, but I recall than on a system with 4 shelves (2 chains) you couldn't, for example, put one on one SCSI card and one on the other SCSI card. The 630 with the new shelves is much more sensitive to this than previous filer models. It shouldn't be a problem in normal operation, but it could result in the filer getting confused if there is a disk failure or you try to do a hot swap of a drive, etc. Bruce

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SCSI shelf faults?
by rasmus＠bellglobal.com 10 Sep '97

10 Sep '97

I just received the following: Wed Sep 10 14:00:00 EST [statd]: *** NOTICE *** Fault previously reported on SCSI storage shelf attached to slot 8a has been corrected. Wed Sep 10 14:00:39 EST [statd]: *** NOTICE *** Fault reported on SCSI storage shelf attached to slot 8a. Please check fan and power on shelf. Wed Sep 10 14:00:41 EST [asup_main]: System Notification mail sent What the heck is going on? The first message says that the fault previously reported was corrected. There was no fault previously reported, and then a fault gets reported. This is a 630 with a single shelf. Should I be worried about this? The only thing I did that might have affected it was to set the time on the box. It was off by 9 hours. At around 13:35 I set the time to 13:35 and then when the 14:00 check rolled around it generated the above. -Rasmus

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upgrading Pentium 90 on F330
by Daniel Quinlan 10 Sep '97

10 Sep '97

Is it possible to upgrade the Pentium 90 chip on an F330? (Haven't opened mine in a while... Is it in a ZIF socket?) Has anyone tried or looked into this? slot 0: System Board 90 MHz (NetApp System Board I rev-b) Memory Size: 256 MB I know it is possible to upgrade the entire head or move the disks to another array with the same size disks. Dan -- Daniel Quinlan (at work) Linux, our last best hope for Unix quinlan(a)transmeta.com http://www.pathname.com/~quinlan/ ... (Got BOFH? Looking for good ones.)

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Re: raid swap and dump problem
by sirbruce＠ix.netcom.com 08 Sep '97

08 Sep '97

On 09/08/97 19:44:13 you wrote: > > >Hi, > >When doing a `raid swap' I get this warning, > >> raid swap >** WARNING ** >You can NOT swap a disk into or out of the system: >a dump is currently running on a local tape device >and you must wait until the dump is completed, or abort the >dump before reissuing the "raid swap" command. This particular limitation shouldn't happen if your tape drive isn't on the same bus as your disks, which is just about every system Netapp has shipped in recent years. However, that "bug" wasn't fixed until 4.0 or 4.1, I think. >But there is no dump running, the last dump was aborted, > >DUMP: ran out of tape, and can't ask questions when run via "rsh". >DUMP: The ENTIRE dump is aborted. > >Is there a lockfile which should be removed? How do I abort the >dump I can't find? Yes, unfortunately, there is no "dump abort" command on the filer the clear up such things. There might be a way to abort NDMP sessions, but basically the best thing for you to do is reboot. (There's no lockfile; the state is in memory.) An easy way to reproduce this is have an rsh dump running from a remote client which then crashes. Bruce

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NFS bursting is killing us
by Christoph Doerbeck 08 Sep '97

08 Sep '97

In recent tests to uncover performance issues with a newer F330 running 4.0.1c, our network snooper-dude has revieled that the toaster is not interleaving the NFS packets very well. Thus, client machine A gets a bunch of i/o, then B, then back to A, then C, etc... It feels like the NFS "daemon" is running in non-pre-emptive task-switching mode. (Did someone slip MS Windoz code in here ?) The older 330's (still running 3.x) do not exhibit this behaviour. Any comments/ideas would sure be appreciated... The toaster in question is running 4.0.1c as mentioned, with CIFS and HTTP disabled. - C. Doerbeck

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raid swap and dump problem
by lasse＠sics.se 08 Sep '97

08 Sep '97

Hi, When doing a `raid swap' I get this warning, > raid swap ** WARNING ** You can NOT swap a disk into or out of the system: a dump is currently running on a local tape device and you must wait until the dump is completed, or abort the dump before reissuing the "raid swap" command. But there is no dump running, the last dump was aborted, DUMP: ran out of tape, and can't ask questions when run via "rsh". DUMP: The ENTIRE dump is aborted. Is there a lockfile which should be removed? How do I abort the dump I can't find? Thanks, Lasse

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Re: alternate drives, RAM for NetApp 630
by sirbruce＠ix.netcom.com 06 Sep '97

06 Sep '97

On 09/06/97 01:07:45 you wrote: > Yeah, doubtful. ;-) Our third-party drives were bought to >Netapp's specs, down to the firmware revision. The canisters were >supplied by OSS, who stock Digital StorageWorks products. The only >difference there is the wiring leading to the two LED's on the front >cover. There are different types of StorageWorks cannisters. I doubt that is the "only" difference. Just FYI. But I don't think the specific specs for these are available anywhere. Bruce

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Re: alternate drives, RAM for NetApp 630
by sirbruce＠ix.netcom.com 06 Sep '97

06 Sep '97

On 09/05/97 23:28:40 you wrote: > The ironic thing is, of the 16 Netapp-supplied drives and the 12 >third-party ones we are using, two drives have failed so far (since >April): both were Netapp drives. :-/ At least the replacement >drives were shipped promptly. I'm not saying this *did* happen, but it's worth noting that if you have "good parts" and "bad parts" together it is possible for the *bad* part to make the *good* part fail... the drive may have sent some illegal or incompatible sequence that locked the other one up. Consider also a network card who follows the rules, but winds up getting killed by some rogue system on the network sending malformed packets. I agree, both need to be fixed, but proper compatibility can often avoid such lingering bugs. Another possibility - higher performing components will fail faster, generally speaking. Perhaps the Netapp drives provide better performance for lower MTBF (doubtful, but worth mentioning). Bruce

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Re: quotas to track disk usage
by sirbruce＠ix.netcom.com 06 Sep '97

06 Sep '97

On 09/05/97 23:58:50 you wrote: >> A "quota convert qtree" command would be great, even if it took >> hours to accomplish for a large directory structure. > > Can't you create the quota tree, and then use something like tar >to copy/delete files into the quota tree while preserving the >directory structure? As discussed earlier, you'd want to use something like cpio, but yes. The point is that could take a long time for 10s or 100s of Gigabytes of data, wheras the filer itself could theoretically do the process faster (it doesn't have to copy files; just set the appropriate tree id). Bruce

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Re: quotas to track disk usage
by sirbruce＠ix.netcom.com 06 Sep '97

06 Sep '97

On 09/05/97 02:55:47 you wrote: > >>> - Quotas trees are not usable because you can't mv files from one >>> quota tree to another (according to the docs). > >> The docs are slightly misleading here... sure, you can mv files from >> one to another, but they get copied, not moved. This should not >> generally be a problem (it's just like a separate mount point). > >Could someone from NetApp provide more detail here? I'm sure you can >move from one point to another over NFS, but if you are working from >/, you can't do an NFS rename call from one tree to another? What >happens when you try to use mv? Yeah, I'm not sure what would happen if you mount / and try to do the move from one tree to another. But if you mount them separately it won't make any difference (you probably do that anyway, since you want to confine the quota to just /home and not the whole filer). The mv command just does a copy instead. >What can't you do from a NFS/SMB client point of view? Again, I'm not sure what would happen with the root share, but between shares it will just copy (and then delete if you actually specified a move). >> 1. You have to create the quota tree first... if you already have a >> /home and directories in it, you can't "convert" them into a quota >> tree. You have to start with a new directory from scratch, crated >> via the "quota qtree newhome" or something similar. > >Ugh. If we get another filer, sure, but doesn't do much good for me >now. Yep. I complained bitterly about this years ago when a filer was set up the wrong way without a quota tree. You couldn't fix it after the fact. IMHO this is a big problem, as most admins won't understand quota trees when they first start using the filer, and once they do, it's too late to change. A "quota convert qtree" command would be great, even if it took hours to accomplish for a large directory structure. >> What Netapp really needs to do is a default quota report by uid/gid >> type of command on the filer, to avoid the need to set up quotas to >> track usage. > >Agreed. It looks like I'm stuck using "du" for now. Well, don't take me as definitive... maybe someone else has an idea. Bruce

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Nice hidden command: mv
by Daniel Quinlan 06 Sep '97

06 Sep '97

(I'm assuming this mailing list is still active.) As an ice-breaker (teaser?), I thought I would share a useful hidden command that is present in NetApp Release 4.1d (and probably most others). It isn't listed in any online help (well, that's almost true) or documented anywhere, but you can use it anytime on the console. Note: I found this command on my own (i.e., it was not disclosed to me by NetApp). hostname> help mv rename files hostname> mv usage: mv file1 file2 hostname> mv /test1 /test2 I'd like to see more information and discussion on this mailing list: - problems you have experienced - any diagnostic utilities - undocumented commands - backup systems, experiences, etc. - Your experiences with other vendors (Auspex, Falcon, etc.) (positive or negative) - experiences with different NetApp models - using NetApps in growing or rapidly changing environments (for example, problems with having to move trees of data around often) - using more than a few NetApps - using one NetApp from multiple buildings (switching, routing, etc.) - performance tips, techniques, advice - and so on... I'll be making more postings in the not-too-distant future. Hopefully, things will pick-up a bit. Dan -- Daniel Quinlan (at work) Linux, our last best hope for Unix quinlan(a)transmeta.com http://www.pathname.com/~quinlan/ ... (Got BOFH? Looking for good ones.)

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Re: Nice hidden command: mv
by guy＠netapp.com 06 Sep '97

06 Sep '97

> In many cases they aren't "safe" to use, and > you can be sure they certainly don't go through the usual QA cycle. Yup. If it's not documented, it's not supported, even though it might be useful. (I've filed a bug saying that our whole collection of undocumented commands needs cleaning up. Note that "cleaning up" in many cases may mean "removing from the system" - a whole *pile* of commands are there solely to provoke the system to do things for testing purposes inside development, for example. In some other cases, it may mean, making information available to support people, and maybe to end-users, but not necessarily committing to keeping the interface the same henceforth and forever more, world without end, amen. In other cases, it may mean leaving the command around for now, but not documenting it, because changes to the system in the future may obviate the need for it, at which point we'll remove it.) > Now, I'm not saying mv is dangerous (I don't know the code), but I > would not be surprised if it didn't fail to lock certain buffers > properly in multiuser operation, or not update the filesystem > correctly for CIFS attributes, or any number of other problems. Actually, "mv" happens to be Pretty Damn Simple - it does a pile of standard WAFL operations to look up the containing directories and then the standard WAFL rename operation (and uses an internal-to-Data-ONTAP(R)(TM)(LSMFT) routine to do it, so it's about 12 lines of code - counting blank linkes and curly braces), so it shouldn't, in theory, cause those problems (and won't do any better at moving stuff out of a snapshot than would a "mv" command on a UNIX box or a "ren" command on a DOS/Windows box; moving stuff out of a snapshot isn't exactly trivial), but... > I wouldn't want to risk the possibility of corruption and/or a crash > unless it was an "approved" Netapp command. ...that's definitely the case; undocumented means unsupported and, quite likely, untested, and also means "not guaranteed to stick around forever".

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NetApp and FDDI
by Alexei Rodriguez 06 Sep '97

06 Sep '97

Anybody else out ther using FDDI for their NetApp and using Sun's as clients? We have been seeing some odd behavior at times. Looking through the logs on the clients, we have "NFS server not responding" errors (for 0 sec duration) across all the clients. Those that beat more heavily on the NetApp (like one box that constitutes 70% of the traffic) has these every few minutes. We have also had the NetApp stop serving NFS over the FDDI interface. Taking the interface down and bringing it back up has solved the problem. But what is the root of this problem? Bad NIC? Any suggestions? Thanks. Alex

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alternate drives, RAM for NetApp 630
by Wayne D. Correia 06 Sep '97

06 Sep '97

Hi, What's the current supported 9GB drive revision that works in the NetApp 630? Also, can someone confirm if the DEC Storageworks shelf model SWXSS-22 shelf works in a NetApp 630? That's the Storageworks shelf that DEC recommends for their 9GB drives that are actually Seagate ST-19171-W's. I just can not justify paying NetApp $3000 for a $1200 hard disk or $10,000 for 256MB of DRAM when it should cost no more than $1500. As far as testing does, I really doubt that NetApp can possibly perform any level of pre-sale burn-in testing to justify more than 400% markup on RAM, more than 200% markup on hard disks, and more than 300% markup on an empty DEC Storageworks shelf.

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Re: quotas to track disk usage
by sirbruce＠ix.netcom.com 05 Sep '97

05 Sep '97

On 09/05/97 01:40:58 you wrote: > >Given these parameters: > > - I would like to use quotas to track user disk space usage (but not > limit it) Easily done, but there are some caveats. > - Quotas trees are not usable because you can't mv files from one > quota tree to another (according to the docs). The docs are slightly misleading here... sure, you can mv files from one to another, but they get copied, not moved. This should not generally be a problem (it's just like a separate mount point). > - I only want to track usage in /home/* only, not the entire disk > (since there are other areas on the filesystem that users use, but > I do not want included in the quota report. This can be done with the new 4.1 software. >Is this possible or are the docs wrong about #2 ? Take a look at the na_quota(1) man page and they provide just such an example of restricting user quotas per export. However, there are some caveats: 1. You have to create the quota tree first... if you already have a /home and directories in it, you can't "convert" them into a quota tree. You have to start with a new directory from scratch, crated via the "quota qtree newhome" or something similar. 2. Some clients can't deal with quotas great thatn 8GB, and there is currently no option on the filer to limit this (this is filed as a bug), so you'd have to restrict your users to 8GB. If you have any over that, you don't want them in the quota system. So, you'd want something like: # Quota Target type disk files # ------------- ----- ---- ----- /newhome tree * user@newhome 8G The first line might not even be necessary, but it's worth including just for reference. Hmm, unless it breaks the clients the same way. Maybe the 8G can be omitted from the user entry as well? I don't know, I haven't tried it. The line might also be ncessary for the file to be parsed properly. What Netapp really needs to do is a default quota report by uid/gid type of command on the filer, to avoid the need to set up quotas to track usage. Bruce

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Re: drive enclosure options
by sirbruce＠ix.netcom.com 05 Sep '97

05 Sep '97

On 09/05/97 09:07:08 you wrote: > >We have a F220 and our first drive enclosure is the standard Digital >Storage Works one provided by NetApp. We are considering making our >second enclosure be an Adjile Systems Lynx enclosure, since we have had >good experience with them in other systems. > >We are wondering if there are any incompatibilities between the Lynx and >the F220. I know when a drive is "raid fail"ed with the DSW enclosure >that the lights indicate the drive is spun down and ready for removal. The >Lynx does not provide that kind of lighting, but it is designed for hot >swapping. I don't think any other enclosures are allowed except on a PVR and unsupported basis. I'm surprised if Netapp is changing this, as even different Storage Works enclosures have demonstrated problems with each-other, let alone other enclosures. Bruce

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NIC card for NetApp?
by Wayne D. Correia 05 Sep '97

05 Sep '97

Hi, Are any of the NetApp 630 accessories like hard disks, disk shelves, NIC cards, and RAM for the NetApp available via any other source than NetApp? Their prices for the add-ins are quite high and I am trying to plan out a system purchase now. Quick responses really appreciated. :-) -w Wayne D. Correia 1-415-826-6000

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Re: Clarification
by sthaug＠nethelp.no 05 Sep '97

05 Sep '97

> > In my specific circumstance (lots of small files grouped in large > > quantities in single directories), I am unhappy with the performance of > > the F540 that I have. NetApp tech support and I have been working on the > > issue for almost 3 months now, and resolution may be in sight. ... > But this application sounds disturbingly similar to Internet news...and > the NetApp's tend to excel in that! > > We noticed a 300% performance increase versus a Sun StorageArray, for > example. We use an F330 for News, and are very happy with the performance and stability. That being said, our NetApp/Ultrasparc system still isn't very happy with 200.000 (or more) files in control.cancel, and we also see the occasional "not responding still trying" during renumbering (i.e. readings lots of directory entries, including some moderately large ones. (We no longer have the problem with control.cancel after we started deleting the cancel messages every few hours. The renumber problem is still with us, but isn't *enough* of a problem to worry about.) My conclusion is that a NetApp works much better than the traditional Unix file system for lots of small files - but there are limits even to what a NetApp will take of file system "abuse". The obvious long term solution for News is a few large files for the article store, like Diablo does it - and like Scott Fritchie's mods to INN. Steinar Haug, Nethelp consulting, sthaug(a)nethelp.no

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Clarification
by Jaye Mathisen 05 Sep '97

05 Sep '97

To clarify a comment I made earlier... In my specific circumstance (lots of small files grouped in large quantities in single directories), I am unhappy with the performance of the F540 that I have. NetApp tech support and I have been working on the issue for almost 3 months now, and resolution may be in sight. As to the hardware itself, it's nice stuff, fast, reliable, easy to care for, couldn't ask for anything more. So if your situation is similar to mine, the NetApp may not be the optimal choice.

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quotas to track disk usage
by Daniel Quinlan 05 Sep '97

05 Sep '97

Given these parameters: - I would like to use quotas to track user disk space usage (but not limit it) - Quotas trees are not usable because you can't mv files from one quota tree to another (according to the docs). - I only want to track usage in /home/* only, not the entire disk (since there are other areas on the filesystem that users use, but I do not want included in the quota report. Is this possible or are the docs wrong about #2 ? - Dan

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Re: Nice hidden command: mv
by Ketil Kirkerud Elgethun 05 Sep '97

05 Sep '97

Michael Douglass <mikedoug(a)texas.net> writes: > How about having an 'enabling' command that enables those 'undocummented' > commands. There is one already. And it _does_ enable a lot of commands, most of them are obviously meant for testing only. -- ---Ketil Kirkerud Elgethun, Scandinavia Online

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Re: NetApp and FDDI
by dheiland＠lucent.com 05 Sep '97

05 Sep '97

Are these NFS server not responding messages occurring at any specific time? I'm seeing similar messages about 3am each night - the same time that a cron runs to remove .nfs files. I'm still looking into and for me it might just be a matter of changing from soft mounts to hard mounts, or even problems with NIS binding. Dave > On Thu, Sep 04, 1997 at 09:59:11AM -0400, Alexei Rodriguez said: > > > Looking through the logs on the clients, we have "NFS server not responding" > > errors (for 0 sec duration) across all the clients. Those that > > beat more heavily on the NetApp (like one box that constitutes 70% of > > the traffic) has these every few minutes. > > These occur using full duplex 100T and suns as clients as well. So I > don't think that FDDI is the key. I think I remember reading that netapp > had fixed this, or were working on a fix. > -- > Michael Douglass > Texas Networking, Inc.

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Re: NIC card for NetApp?
by sirbruce＠ix.netcom.com 04 Sep '97

04 Sep '97

On 09/04/97 00:34:43 you wrote: >I might agree with you if I didn't have experience with netapp's RMA >department. We have been shipped replacement motherboards with >*mismatched* DRAM simms in them from netapp. Mistakes do happen. I've gotten motherboards with bad onboard ethernet, slots that didn't work, etc. But by working with Netapp these are put into the corrective feedback loop and prevented from happening again (at least in theory). >All accessories we put in >our netapps are *Exactly* the same part numbers as what netapp uses. >Down to the same Samsung Simms that netapp does, the same Seagate >drives that netapp does, the *same* DEC Storageworks canisters, the >*same* dallas semiconductor nvram. I don't think the nvram simms are an approved component for customer buy, but that may have changed. I mean, you think it's the same because of the serial number, but how do you know there isn't something else Netapp changes? Nvram is probably a bad example of this but you can easily think of other examples. >Guess what...it all works *perfectly* as expected So far... what are you going to do if it doesn't? >I was not talking about unapproved components. I would *never* risk >the chance of a failure due to an unapproved component. I do however >have a problem with paying 200-300% *more* for the same accessories. Again, I didn't think nvram was an approved component (as in approved for customer buy), although I know that some memory is. But what about future filers that have memory that isn't (I think the F630 is that way now?) or the new 9GB cannisters? I dunno if those are readily available elsewhere. I agree 200% is steep, but I would have no qualms about paying 150% for the same component I could get elsewhere but had been tested or modified by Netapp to work properly with their equipment. Bruce

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Re: NIC card for NetApp?
by sirbruce＠ix.netcom.com 04 Sep '97

04 Sep '97

On 09/04/97 08:33:11 you wrote: >> Mistakes do happen. I've gotten motherboards with bad onboard >> ethernet, slots that didn't work, etc. But by working with Netapp >> these are put into the corrective feedback loop and prevented from >> happening again (at least in theory). > >But didn't someone _just_ say that the parts you get are tested for >reliability... Yes (it was me). Of course, that process isn't perfect... >I'm sure that was speculation on the part of the >speaker--but I guess this just goes to show you that they are _NOT_ >testing their product before shipping it. We've sent numerous >motherboards back. One would would be curious to know the circumstances. Perhaps RMAs are not tested the same way as shipped product, or perhaps shipped product breaks during shipping (DOA). Neither of these negate what I said about the testing (which does occur normally), nor does it negate the assertion that these problems are resolved through corrective action. I agree, though, that as the quality of the testing process degrades, the trade-off for premium prices diminishes. Keep in mind also that my point of testing was not that it prevents normal breakage, but that it ensures compatibility and realibility of the working part. Disk drive failures, memory simm failures (due to slighting off timing), and compatibility of difference card revisions (i.e. the card you buy off the shelf from DEC may not be the same as the one in your Netapp, even if it looks the same and seems like it should work). Bruce

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Re: NIC card for NetApp?
by sthaug＠nethelp.no 04 Sep '97

04 Sep '97

> Netapp *really* does its customers a disservice but its RIDICULOUS > pricing on common accessories. > > $1950 list for a F/W Cuda 4 from netapp...and they offered us this > *incredible* 15% discount...wow $1657.50... > > Tech Data had the same drive for $665. > > I love our toasters, but someone in netapp marketing really needs to > get a grip on reality. It may be more relevant to compare the NetApp prices with a new Cuda from other sources in a Storageworks shelf. Here in Norway you can only get disks in Storageworks shelves from DEC, and they are *much* more expensive than the disks themselves. Steinar Haug, Nethelp consulting, sthaug(a)nethelp.no

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