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13531 discussions

Anybody besides me having quotas go bonkers?
by Jaye Mathisen 20 Jan '98

20 Jan '98

I have a few quota trees set up on a 540 with 100GB. I just created some new users, and the filer (running 4.3R4D1) is reporting that they've used: user 506 9840 41943040 1292 10485760 user 1001 4294966368 41943040 22 10485760 user@web 1001 4294966408 25600 18 1000 user 1003 4294967260 41943040 1 10485760 user@web 1003 4294967260 25600 0 1000 user 1004 4294967260 41943040 1 10485760 user@web 1004 4294967260 25600 0 1000 which is flatly impossible, the users were just created and assigned. yet it thinks the disk space usage is all used up. What's even weirder is that I can create directories all day, and no errors, only files cause problems. yet the dirs are owned by user 1001, etc. If anybody has any ideas, I'd love to hear it, occasionally working quotas is worse than no quotas, since it prevents mail from being deliverd (using qmail), yet seems to run OK. My quota file is trivial, just a few entries. CC'd to support@netapp, because I have a separate open ticket where df will show -8kb used, -8kb free at odd times. Any tips appreciated, I could almost strangle this thing.

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Re: Anybody besides me having quotas go bonkers?
by Daniel Quinlan 19 Jan '98

19 Jan '98

Jaye Mathisen <mrcpu(a)cdsnet.net> writes: > which is flatly impossible, the users were just created and assigned. yet > it thinks the disk space usage is all used up. We had a similar problem with some 4.2 versions. Basically, files would get created as root and then chowned to a user, but without any quota usage attribution. Later, the user deletes some files. 0 minus some number is a really big number because of integer overflow. Quota exceeded. It looks like you may have a similar problem. Generally, quotas are unreliable for us. I always "quota off; quota on" whenever I add a new directory directly under one of our quota trees. The biggest problem for us is that we don't really want to use quotas to limit disk usage, we just want to track it. It should be really easy to have a "nice quotas" option that causes the filer to never send an EDQUOT (quota exceeded) error. That one feature would make most of our quota problems non-problems. - Dan

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None
by Kelly Wyatt 16 Jan '98

16 Jan '98

subscribe toasters

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Shortcomings of current NetApps?
by Marc Nicholas 15 Jan '98

15 Jan '98

I'm interested to hear what others think the shortcomings of the current crop of NetApps are. From my experience: * Single logical drive * Weedy SCSI performance * Lack of other RAID implementations * Not quite enough redundancy for truly mission critical applications Don't get me wrong, I love 'em :-) -marc --- Marc Nicholas - Hippocampus OSD, Inc. - Eastern Office 416 979 9000 - fax: 416 979 8223 - http://www.hippocampus.net 125 John St. - Suite #100 - Toronto - Ontario - M5V 2E2 - CANADA "Inter/Intra/Extra[net] consulting, corporate access, hardware and software sales"

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Re: Shortcomings of current NetApps?
by Daniel Quinlan 15 Jan '98

15 Jan '98

rasmus(a)lerdorf.on.ca (Rasmus Lerdorf) writes: > > > 1. Out-of-date SNMP implemention - (no CIFS or disk system statistics, > > for example) > > What do you mean by disk system stats here? The information displayed by the "sysstat" command. You can get the NFS and CPU load via SNMP, but that's it. CPU NFS CIFS HTTP Net kB/s Disk kB/s Tape kB/s Cache in out read write read write age --- --- --- ---- Only the items with dashes under them are available via SNMP. Dan

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Re: Shortcomings of current NetApps?
by mds46523＠ggr.co.uk 15 Jan '98

15 Jan '98

On Jan 15, 8:46, Brian Tao wrote: > Subject: Re: Shortcomings of current NetApps? > I have a really simple request: a local "rm" command that can > take arguments either on the command line or from stdin. Anyone > running a traditional news spool on a Netapp will probably appreciate > what I'm getting at. ;-) A local "du" command would be rather spiffy too. A special du keyed to UID, ie the space used by a person in a given directory tree would also be kinda cool. I think that there are certain operations where having the filer do the whole thing would save the network, your client machine and the filer itself a lot of time and probably get the job done quicker. The operation could probably be made as low priority as you like and it would still have advantages. Maybe if there were a JAVA VM on the filer that could manipulate the filesystem consistently we could have a bash ourselves. Clearly this could be open to abuse of the Appliance principle, but that's where discipline comes in. > -- > Brian Tao (BT300, taob(a)netcom.ca) > "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" >-- End of excerpt from Brian Tao -- -Mark, TSG Unix admin and support, int 782 4412, ext +44 1438 76 4412. ... an Englishman in London ...

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Re: Shortcomings of current NetApps?
by Daniel Quinlan 15 Jan '98

15 Jan '98

Marc Nicholas <marc(a)hippocampus.net> writes: > I'm interested to hear what others think the shortcomings of the > current crop of NetApps are. In addition to what other people have said: 1. Out-of-date SNMP implemention - (no CIFS or disk system statistics, for example) 2. ndmpcopy - incrementals don't work, rsh as UID 0 doesn't work, requires password to be passed on command line 3. NetApps are reboot-prone. Often will reboot when it should have just failed an obviously bad disk. 4. No command line Unix permissions tool for CIFS, the graphical permissions tool uses an undocumented proprietary extension to CIFS (that is, it won't work with Samba). 5. Disk reconstructions take far too long. We had one on a 200GB filesystem take 24 hours (dial set to 2 because any faster was causing severe problems for users, and this is on a decked-out F630). Dan

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Re: Shortcomings of current NetApps?
by mds46523＠ggr.co.uk 15 Jan '98

15 Jan '98

On Jan 15, 11:14, James R Grinter wrote: > Subject: Re: Shortcomings of current NetApps? > On Thu 15 Jan, 1998, Alexei Rodriguez <alexei(a)cimedia.com> wrote: > >I understand the benefits. I just don't care for having 5 4GB > >slices which you have to manage (ala auspex). > > I thought the idea of multiple RAID sets is that you layer one > filesystem atop them all (if you want to. Of course, others want > to have multiple filesystems.) > My thought was that for once we'd have separate fs's in one NetApp box. Which would allow us to have separate snapshot schedules in the same box. Which would be nice and useful. > (Which is something you can, and people do, do with multiple > RAID controllers and Unix systems, etc) > > -- jrg. >-- End of excerpt from James R Grinter -- -Mark, TSG Unix admin and support, int 782 4412, ext +44 1438 76 4412. ... an Englishman in London ...

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Re: Shortcomings of current NetApps?
by mds46523＠ggr.co.uk 15 Jan '98

15 Jan '98

I've got two things to say about these points: (a) Testing. (b) Testing. (insert standard joke about 'it's so important I mention it twice') Seriously though, we've been bitten a once or twice by component failures on our NetApp's but compared to the DOA's we get from Sun, SGI and the rest, I'm quite happy for NetApp to spend more on their factory space, power, personnel and so forth, AND charge a little more. Maybe amortising the RnD costs of NetApp's over the whole range of components isn't as off-putting to users as dumping it all in the base price of the strictly NetApp-designed-and-built hardware and software. Plus it means that NetApp engineers can reasonably expect problems with hardware and software to be NetApp-owned because they were NetApp supplied. NetApp seem to want to make owning their boxes as painless and fruitful as they can. How often do you see Rolls-Royce's in the shop being fitted with parts that aren't approved by RR? Likewise Ferrari? I betcha parts for econoboxes would be cheaper, and might even come from the same basic supplier, but the added scrutiny means added reassurance, which is worth money. Maybe NetApp could introduce a poor-man's NetApp (called something more tactful and market-savvy of course)... But I think that would be more trouble than it's worth no matter which side you're on. On Jan 14, 22:33, Jonah Yokubaitis wrote: > Subject: Re: Shortcomings of current NetApps? > On Wed, 14 Jan 1998, Chris Caputo wrote: > > |>I'm interested to hear what others think the shortcomings of the current > |>crop of NetApps are. From my experience: > | > |My biggest beef is that the upgradability of these things is low. It > |seems that when you buy a unit you are buying a capacity and improvements > |in disk technology don't raise it. For example, our unit uses 4 gig > |drives. Its max capacity is 14 4 gig drives. We'd love to put 9 or 18 > |gig drives in it, but the software doesn't support it. I realize 9 or 18 > |gig drives would raise rebuild time, but that risk should be up to us. > > Amen to that. > > A paste from a sysconfig -r on an F630 > > 1: SEAGATE ST15150W 9107 Size=3.9GB (8388315 blocks) > > The ST15150W is an *OLD* drive that Seagate doesn't even list as a > current product..... > > Some newer drives please? 18gig drives please? It *can't* be that hard > to allow 18gig drives...if it is your programmers didn't do their job > correctly. > > |I also consider the high price per meg to be a shortcoming and because of > |it we are researching and developing alternatives. > > Just negotiate hard with Netapp. I still feel screwed everytime I want > an upgrade from netapp. The above drive model is $355 through > disribution...netapp quoted me $1700/drive. > > Their NVRAM pricing is LUDICRIOUS considering its 3rd party NVRAM > bought from Dallas semiconductor. Ditto for DRAM. > > Netapp: > > Make your money on your wonderful software, and stop trying to price > gouge your customers on *off the shelf* items like Seagate Hard > DRives, Samsung DRAM, and Dallas Semiconductor NVRAM. > > We really aren't that stupid I promise. > > Jonah > > Jonah Barron Yokubaitis | Austin|San Antonio|Houston > President | Dallas|Fort Worth|Boerne > Texas.Net | Georgetown|Dripping Springs > http://www.texas.net | Making 56k affordable > >-- End of excerpt from Jonah Yokubaitis -- -Mark, TSG Unix admin and support, int 782 4412, ext +44 1438 76 4412. ... an Englishman in London ...

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subscribe
by tonylai 15 Jan '98

15 Jan '98

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Re: Shortcomings of current NetApps?
by Richard Fairthorne 15 Jan '98

15 Jan '98

I would like to see the NetApp re-share CIFS according to cifsconfig.txt after a power-loss, not just a clean shut-down. Richard Fairthorne ---------- > From: Brett Rabe <brett(a)uswest.net> > To: Marc Nicholas <marc(a)hippocampus.net> > Cc: toasters(a)mathworks.com > Subject: Re: Shortcomings of current NetApps? > Date: Wednesday, January 14, 1998 1:18 PM > > > On Wed, 14 Jan 1998 12:40:47 EST, Marc Nicholas wrote: > >I'm interested to hear what others think the shortcomings of the current > >crop of NetApps are. From my experience: > > > > [snip] > >* Not quite enough redundancy for truly mission critical applications > > What other types of redundancy would you like to see? > > Brett > > --- > Brett Rabe Email : brett(a)uswest.net > Systems Administrator - U S West Phone : 612.664.3078 > 600 Stinson Blvd. Pager : 612.613.2549 > Minneapolis, MN USA 55413 Fax : 612.664.4770 > > If you aren't the lead dog, the view is always the same.

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Re: NetApp and amanda
by Alan Judge 14 Jan '98

14 Jan '98

> In article <199801131829.MAA18731(a)vortex.more.net>, > David Drum <david(a)more.net> wrote: >> I was wondering if anyone uses amanda to backup their NetApp(s)? Jan-Pieter> Yup, we do. At least, we used to, until yesterday :) The Jan-Pieter> load on the netapp during phase I of the dump is Jan-Pieter> prohibitively high, and consequently makes our webserver Jan-Pieter> very slow... we're currently rethinking things. We're doing something similar, though in our case we modified amanda itself to understand devices like /@filer1 and understand the output of NetApp dump, rather than replacing dump. Works great, though I have the same concerns as you about the cost of amanda's dump estimates. (Though the cost of creating a snapshot doesn't seem significant for us.) I'd be interested in hearing what solution you come up with. -- Alan

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Re: NetApp and amanda
by Jan-Pieter Cornet 13 Jan '98

13 Jan '98

In article <199801131829.MAA18731(a)vortex.more.net>, David Drum <david(a)more.net> wrote: >I was wondering if anyone uses amanda to backup their NetApp(s)? Yup, we do. At least, we used to, until yesterday :) The load on the netapp during phase I of the dump is prohibitively high, and consequently makes our webserver very slow... we're currently rethinking things. There are a few problems to backing up a toaster via amanda, and here are the solutions, roughly: - the toaster doesn't run amandad :) And you can't easily make it do so. Our solution is to have amanda backup /dev/netapp1/path on another machine. To keep the network happy, that "other machine" is also the one that the tape is connected to, and the one that amanda (the master program, or the client, whatever you want to call it) runs on. "dump" on this machine is actually a script that intercepts requests to dump devices of the form /dev/netapp*. If it isn't, it calls the regular dump. If it is, it calls a separate program, which translates some options, and then starts dump on the toaster, via rsh. (Note that the devices that amanda thinks it's backing up need to exist. Just create them and make them symlinks or hardlinks to /dev/null or /dev/zero. Doesn't really matter). Next problem: - amanda does not grok toaster "dump" output. Perl to the rescue again (the dump wrapper is perl, too :). Since we had to start a separate script anyway, we're piping STDERR through the script, and have it do on-the-fly translations so the output of "dump" as produced by the toaster is massaged into something that amanda understands. Additionally, we trap "dump W" and read the /etc/dumpdates file on the toaster too, and generate extra output for it. A few considerations you have to make: - amanda starts by getting estimates for all filesystems it backs up, that is, it makes at least 2 dumps for each filesystem, and terminates the dump once the "estimated" line is in. If the "dump" command on the toaster creates its own snapshot each time you do this, you waste a lot of CPU. We settled on generating a snapshot once each day, and running all backups from that. You have to take extra special care though not to refresh the snapshot while a backup is still running. - amanda doesn't know anything about "oh don't try to backup this so often". At least I can't configure it to do so (without extreme hacks). It knows about priorities, but it will always at least try to make a backup, and if it fits on tape, it will. This generally means that amanda does make a backup of all data on the toaster, at least incrementally. Not strictly necessary with the RAID and all that. If there is interest, I can post the sources we use to the list, or make them available on the web. Note that the sources are very alpha, and most definately not directly usable on other sites, some tweaking will be necessary. Best regards, -- #! ##### Jan-Pieter Cornet ##### <johnpc(a)xs4all.net> ##### perl ++$_;$!=$_+++$_;($:,$,,$/,$*)=$!=~/.(.)...(.)(.).(.)/;$!=$_+$_; ($(a),$\,$~)=$!=~/(.)(.).(.)/; $_="$,$/$:"; $@++; $~="$~$_";($_)= \$$=~/\((.)/;$|=++$_;$_++;$|++;$~="$~ $@$:";`$~$/$\$*$, $|>&$_`

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NetApp and amanda
by David Drum 13 Jan '98

13 Jan '98

Hello, I was wondering if anyone uses amanda to backup their NetApp(s)? Regards, David K. Drum david(a)more.net -- It's hard to be bored when you're as stupid as a line. [1] Reality has a tendency to be so uncomfortably real. [2] You can only measure the size of your head from the inside. [3] When you proceed deliberately, mistakes don't cascade, they instruct. [4] [1] Vernor Vinge [2] Neil Peart [3] Larry Wall [4] Stewart Brand

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Re: Usenet: Crosspost - File Exists error
by Ronan Mullally 13 Jan '98

13 Jan '98

> We've just installed a 540 to provide back-end storage for our news system. > Since going live the INN error log has been full of the following messages: > > crosspost cant link alt/jobs/16941 misc/jobs/offered/24616 : File exists > crosspost cant link talk/politics/misc/2349 alt/feminism/944 : File exists ... > Has anybody come across this before? What is to blame - INN, Linux > or the filer? The answer is "None of the above", I'd lost the '-L' flag for innd in the upgrade. Thanks to Ed Klein of BBN Planet for his speedy diagnosis :) -- Ronan Mullally 'In the Beginning there was Network Manager nothing, which exploded.' Ireland On-Line -- Terry Pratchett.

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Usenet: Crosspost - File Exists error
by Ronan Mullally 13 Jan '98

13 Jan '98

We've just installed a 540 to provide back-end storage for our news system. Since going live the INN error log has been full of the following messages: crosspost cant link alt/jobs/16941 misc/jobs/offered/24616 : File exists crosspost cant link talk/politics/misc/2349 alt/feminism/944 : File exists It appears that the crosspost daemon is generating this error while trying to create the necessary hard links for *every* crossposted article (I have yet to verify this) it encounters. The link *is* successfully made, and the article appears in the directory but the error log contains tens of thousands of error messages per day. Before switching to the filer we encountered no such problems. The INN feeder system is a Pentium running Linux 2.0.33. The filer is a 540 running 4.3R4. I encountered the same problem on a 210, also running 4.3R4. I've tracked the error down to the following code fragment (backends/crosspost.c line 172): /* 2nd try to link */ lnval = link(names[0], names[i]) ; if (lnval < 0 && errno == EXDEV) { #if defined(DONT_HAVE_SYMLINK) ... symlink stuff removed ... #endif /* defined(DONT_HAVE_SYMLINK) */ } else if (lnval < 0) { (void)fprintf(stderr, "crosspost cant link %s % names[0], names[i]); perror(" "); } So it appears that link() is returning an EEXISTS error. The link() man page includes the following: BUGS On NFS file systems, the return code may be wrong in case the NFS server performs the link creation and dies before it can say so. Use stat(2) to find out if the link got created. Has anybody come across this before? What is to blame - INN, Linux or the filer? -- Ronan Mullally 'In the Beginning there was Network Manager nothing, which exploded.' Ireland On-Line -- Terry Pratchett.

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(no subject)
by Ying-Chih Liu 13 Jan '98

13 Jan '98

subscribe toastors

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(no subject)
by Ying-Chih Liu 13 Jan '98

13 Jan '98

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None
by Marc Nicholas 12 Jan '98

12 Jan '98

subscribe --- Marc Nicholas - Hippocampus OSD, Inc. - Eastern Office 416 979 9000 - fax: 416 979 8223 - http://www.hippocampus.net 125 John St. - Suite #100 - Toronto - Ontario - M5V 2E2 - CANADA "Inter/Intra/Extra[net] consulting, corporate access, hardware and software sales"

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Snapshot overhead.
by Gregory Gulik 28 Dec '97

28 Dec '97

I think this has been discussed already, but I can't seen to get to the archive any more. Is there a way to tell how much disk space overhead there is from using snapshots?

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Selective snapshotting
by Brian Tao 14 Dec '97

14 Dec '97

Any plans to offer selective snapshotting per directory tree or quota tree? e.g.: I would love to have snapshots for the /www and /home quota trees, but not for /news and /mail (all four reside on the same filer). -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob(a)netcom.ca) "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't"

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NetApp backup to a Quantum 4700
by rasmus＠bellglobal.com 12 Dec '97

12 Dec '97

I am sure this is documented somewhere, but I haven't run across it yet. The NetApp documentation suggests estimating the number of tapes and then specifying the command-line dump command such that tape handling is done correctly for the number of tapes needed. I'd prefer to let the 4700 do it by itself in auto mode. Can I just use a very large -B value and pretend that my stacker is one big tape or are there other tricks? -Rasmus

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Re: MS-SQL on CIFS shares?
by Rajiv Khemani 10 Dec '97

10 Dec '97

>Oh, it is definitely MS SQL. It wants a real NTFS share with full NTFS >security. Just wondering if anybody has found a way around this. Rasmus, We at NetApp have "found a way" to run SQL server off a NetApp CIFS mounted share. However, it is not yet fully tested or supported by either Microsoft or NetApp. So, we're not promoting this solution and our sales or support people will not be able to help. At the same time, we are interested in hearing from people who like this solution, and your specific reasons for it. Send me an email directly, as this will help Microsoft and us - to justify documenting, testing and supporting it. Regards, Rajiv Khemani At 10:46 AM 12/9/97 -0500, rasmus(a)bellglobal.com wrote: >> On Tue, Dec 09, 1997 at 10:00:47AM -0500, rasmus(a)bellglobal.com had >> written: > Has anybody managed to get Microsoft's SQL server to run nicely >> off of a > NetApp CIFS mounted share? If so, what is the trick? >> >> Good question! >> >> But the problem might be MS SQL since I can't even get it to do it >> over a Samba share and will be trying today from a real NT box to see >> if it works that way. > >Oh, it is definitely MS SQL. It wants a real NTFS share with full NTFS >security. Just wondering if anybody has found a way around this. > >-Rasmus > > ---- Rajiv Khemani Group Marketing Manager Network Appliance, Inc. Direct: 408-367-3758 Fax: 408-367-3151 HTTP: http://www.netapp.com

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NVRAM for a 630
by Wm Kevin Shaw 09 Dec '97

09 Dec '97

Does anyone have a source for 630 NVRAM? Thanks in advance.

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MS-SQL on CIFS shares?
by rasmus＠bellglobal.com 09 Dec '97

09 Dec '97

Has anybody managed to get Microsoft's SQL server to run nicely off of a NetApp CIFS mounted share? If so, what is the trick? -Rasmus

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