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13515 discussions

Re: NetApp versus Dell
by sirbruce＠ix.netcom.com 13 Sep '99

13 Sep '99

On 09/13/99 14:48:27 you wrote: >At present they are re-badged systems with different shelves. They were >much cheaper here than NetApp's though I don't feel that Dell have >their routines completely sorted out yet so there can be some logistic >hassles with your purchase. IIRC their European plant is in Ireland so >you may have an advantage there. Dell seem best at delivering shrink >wrapped solutions. I have heard of problems with Dell sales & support as well. For instance, one customer who specifically said they wanted to use a Dell system to support their Microsoft SQL database wound up going with SAN and another vendor because they were not informed of Microsoft allowing NAS support for their SQL database on Netapp filers specifically. Bruce

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Re: NetApp versus Dell
by Michael Salmon 13 Sep '99

13 Sep '99

+----- On Mon, 13 Sep 1999 13:11:16 BST, Colm Buckley writes: | | Quickie from someone in the last stages of speccing and sourcing filer | solutions... has anyone got any experience of the Dell PowerVault NAS | systems? They look very much like re-badged NetApp F720-F760s, with one | or two small differences. | | Anyone have any points either pro or con these systems, versus the | NetApp equivalents? At present they are re-badged systems with different shelves. They were much cheaper here than NetApp's though I don't feel that Dell have their routines completely sorted out yet so there can be some logistic hassles with your purchase. IIRC their European plant is in Ireland so you may have an advantage there. Dell seem best at delivering shrink wrapped solutions. Pro: much cheaper. Con: Dell is an uncertain quantity as yet. /Michael

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Re: maxfiles increase - good rule of thumb?
by sirbruce＠ix.netcom.com 13 Sep '99

13 Sep '99

On 09/12/99 21:09:53 you wrote: > >Greetings, > >We're about to hit 100% in inode usage again and this time, I want to >increase `maxfiles' to a more reasonable level than the current 1 per 32KB >allocation. > >The average file size on our 216GB volume is ~4KB. But I think increasing >maxfiles by 8 times might be a bit risky. Or maybe not. Anyone ever >increase maxfiles from 1 per 32KB to 1 per 4KB? > >Just to play it safe, I'm thinking of doing it in 4KB increments... first >increase to 1 per 28KB and then work my way up if I need it. > >Suggestions or testimonials? I don't think this is the best approach to use. Rather, consider how full your filesystem currently is. If you're using 50% now, then a simply extrapolation is to simply double the current maxfiles number (don't think in terms of inodes/KB) and you should be fine. Or, if you don't want the hassle of monitoring your maxfiles, consider the max expansion for your filer and adjust upward based on current usage. The space/performance penalty for having a maxfiles a few times larger than you actually use is minimal. Personally, whenever I've had a filer go over 90% inode usage, I would generally just bump maxfiles up by 50% (total) if the disk is also close to getting full, or double it if I have a new filer that I am planning to add a lot more to in the near future. Bruce

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maxfiles increase - good rule of thumb?
by Kevin Ying 12 Sep '99

12 Sep '99

Greetings, We're about to hit 100% in inode usage again and this time, I want to increase `maxfiles' to a more reasonable level than the current 1 per 32KB allocation. The average file size on our 216GB volume is ~4KB. But I think increasing maxfiles by 8 times might be a bit risky. Or maybe not. Anyone ever increase maxfiles from 1 per 32KB to 1 per 4KB? Just to play it safe, I'm thinking of doing it in 4KB increments... first increase to 1 per 28KB and then work my way up if I need it. Suggestions or testimonials? ~~~ Kevin Ying / Sysadmin Team Leader interQ, Inc. kevin(a)interq.or.jp Infoss Tower 10/F (vox) +81-3-5456-2555 20-1 Sakuragaoka-cho (fax) +81-3-5456-2556 Shibuya-ku, Tokyo 150-0031, JP

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Re: local vs. network backup for F740's
by sirbruce＠ix.netcom.com 11 Sep '99

11 Sep '99

On 09/10/99 10:50:46 you wrote: > >Hi all. > >We have several F740's with about 400GB each, and we are reexcamining >our backup strategy. I would prefer a centralized, network backup over >a dedicated backup network. I don't understand the difference between the two. I mean you can have both. I suppose by the former you mean doing it over your regular network instead of a new one, which is fine, so long as you have the bandwidth for it. >We've heard rumours that the only >reasonable way to backup filers is using a locally attached DLT drive, >and that we must buy an expensive ($700) NetApp SCSI controller card >before we attempt to do a local backup. AFAIK, the 740 should have come with a tape backup card that supports something like 2 tape drives. Just make sure you have the right kind of SCSI for it. >Does this make sense to you >all? What is the conventional wisdom on the ideal way to backup >multiple filers? Personally, I prefer the local backup, depending on your backup scheme. You can back up everything at once without drive or bandwidth contention and the cost is not outrageous. But if you want to use network backup, I think that is fine too. However I would be wary of using NDMP, which historically has had problems. Then again, if you are using a centralized tape robotic and want all the features and stuff, NDMP may be your only choice. Bruce

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Re: Uses for an old Storageshelf 1?
by sirbruce＠ix.netcom.com 11 Sep '99

11 Sep '99

On 09/10/99 10:09:21 you wrote: >We have a mix of old Ss1s with some Ss2s on a F520 and -- in the >neverending quest for more diskspace -- we may need to replace the Ss1 >with something that holds more. Could a retired Ss1 be hooked up to, say, >a linux box with any old SCSI adapter? Not necessarily doing RAID, just >as a series of 4gb disks. Anyone recycled an old Ss1 in that fashion? Yes. Each disk will appear with a different SCSI ID. Bruce

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local vs. network backup for F740's
by Vance Huntley 10 Sep '99

10 Sep '99

Hi all. We have several F740's with about 400GB each, and we are reexcamining our backup strategy. I would prefer a centralized, network backup over a dedicated backup network. We've heard rumours that the only reasonable way to backup filers is using a locally attached DLT drive, and that we must buy an expensive ($700) NetApp SCSI controller card before we attempt to do a local backup. Does this make sense to you all? What is the conventional wisdom on the ideal way to backup multiple filers? Vance

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attaching a 7-tape stacker
by Dave Toal 10 Sep '99

10 Sep '99

Folks, Hey, all. Another question from the peanut gallery: I recently attached a Sun DLT 4700 (7-tape stacker, one dlt) to a netapp F330. The netapp appears to've recognized the dlt. troi-netapp-fddi> sysconfig -t Tape drive (9b.4) Digital DLT4700 rst0l - rewind device, format is: 42500 bpi 2.6GB nrst0l - no rewind device, format is: 42500 bpi 2.6GB ... I'm trying to set up the tape changer as a Veritas NetBackup storage device, which involves determining what the netapp believes is the robotic device name, controller number, and scsi id of the attached changer. The command syntax is set_ndmp_attr -robot <ndmp server> <robotic device name> <robot controller number> <scsi id of robotic control> <lun of robotic control>. The example given is "set_ndmp_attr -robot toaster spt0 2 3 0". The manual then goes on to say: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Note: The NetApp file server currently provides no method for determining robotic information. You will have to reference the vendor manuals, check the physical configuration (jumpers and so on), and try different combinations with the set_ndmp_attr command in order to determine the correct information. After each try with the set_ndmp_attr command, use tsdtest and tldtest to check communication with the robot. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Is this true? Is spt0 a valid netapp robotic device name? Dave troi-netapp-fddi> sysconfig NetApp Release 5.2.1: Thu Dec 31 12:11:38 PST 1998 System ID: 0016782535 (troi-netapp-fddi) slot 0: System Board Memory Size: 192 MB slot 0: SCSI Host Adapter 0 7 Disks: 28.0GB In-Band Enclosure Services slot 0: Ethernet Controller e0 MAC Address: 00:a0:98:00:05:65 (tp-up) slot 2: FDDI Network Adapter f2 MAC Address: 00:00:f8:60:09:c1 (Fiber) slot 4: Dual SCSI Host Adapter SCSI Host Adapter 4a 7 Disks: 28.0GB In-Band Enclosure Services SCSI Host Adapter 4b 7 Disks: 28.0GB In-Band Enclosure Services slot 6: NVRAM Memory Size: 4 MB slot 9: Dual SCSI Host Adapter SCSI Host Adapter 9a 7 Disks: 28.0GB In-Band Enclosure Services SCSI Host Adapter 9b 1 Tape: DLT4700 In-Band Enclosure Services troi-netapp-fddi>

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F330 & ONTAP versions
by Jay Orr 09 Sep '99

09 Sep '99

I was talking with a tech today fixing problems I experienced upgrading our F330 from 4.2a to 5.3.2r1, and I asked if this was the last release for the F330's, since after February you can't purchase a software support for these filers. He said he hadn't heard about the end-of-support on the F330's, but mentioned that 5.4 is scheduled for Feb. My question is, will 5.4 be available for the F330's or is 5.3.2r1 the last release that'll work on the F330s ?? ----------- Fujitsu - Nexion, St. Louis, MO Jay Orr (314) 579-6517

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hooking up laptop to a filer
by leonard.galinsky＠philips.com 08 Sep '99

08 Sep '99

The information contained in this message is confidential and may be legally privileged. The message is intended solely for the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, or reproduction is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by return e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. Hello people, I've just received a new F720 and a want to hookup a laptop with hyperterminal to the filer. Can anybody tell me how to configure the laptop/hypertermial to get it started? TIA, Jan & Leonard

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RE: hooking up laptop to a filer
by Sam Schorr 08 Sep '99

08 Sep '99

Confidentially (shush!!), setup is just like attaching a console (9600-N-8-1, no flow control). On penalty of something very evil, do not share this information with the toasters mail list - they'll probably misuse this crucial information (just joking around - the setup is pretty straight forward). -----Original Message----- From: leonard.galinsky(a)philips.com [mailto:leonard.galinsky@philips.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 1999 7:36 AM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: hooking up laptop to a filer The information contained in this message is confidential and may be legally privileged. The message is intended solely for the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, or reproduction is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by return e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. Hello people, I've just received a new F720 and a want to hookup a laptop with hyperterminal to the filer. Can anybody tell me how to configure the laptop/hypertermial to get it started? TIA, Jan & Leonard

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Re: hooking up laptop to a filer
by Fred Ab 08 Sep '99

08 Sep '99

Oh my, I do not believe I'm the intended recipient for such confidential and high level information. I have destroyed all copies of the original message and wiped my hard drive as well as the mailservers hard drive clean. ===}The information contained in this message is confidential and may be legally privileged. The message is intended solely for the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, or reproduction is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by return e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. ===} ===}Hello people, ===} ===}I've just received a new F720 and a want to hookup a laptop with hyperterminal to the filer. ===}Can anybody tell me how to configure the laptop/hypertermial to get it started? ===} ===}TIA, ===} ===}Jan & Leonard

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Tedious booting from floppies
by Dave Atkin 08 Sep '99

08 Sep '99

Is there any way to do a maintenance style boot without actually using boot floppies? Maybe by copying the contents of the boot floppies onto a spare disk? The boot command appears to take an argument but I haven't figured out what it is. We just spent a whole day moving data from old F230s to new 740s and we ended up booting from floppies numerous times, partly due to the 740 crashing whenever we tried to put the old volume on line. Waiting for the floppies got very tedious, especially now that the OS has overflowed onto 2 disks. It might then be possible to run WACKY occasionally overnight by dialing in, without having to be physically present to change the floppy. Has Netapp thought of alternative boot methods such as TFTP or LS120 drives? Dave Atkin ------------------------------------------------------ Dave Atkin, Head of Technical Services Computing Service, University of York, YORK YO10 5DD Phone: +44-1904-433804 (ddi) Fax: +44-1904-433740 Email: D.Atkin(a)york.ac.uk ------------------------------------------------------

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Differential DLT drives in the UK
by Dave Atkin 08 Sep '99

08 Sep '99

Can anyone recommend a source of these in the UK? Our supplier, having now sent us two different single-ended drives by mistake, is saying that the differential versions are only available on special order and it may take up to 12 weeks. Dave Atkin ------------------------------------------------------ Dave Atkin, Head of Technical Services Computing Service, University of York, YORK YO10 5DD Phone: +44-1904-433804 (ddi) Fax: +44-1904-433740 Email: D.Atkin(a)york.ac.uk ------------------------------------------------------

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Re: Parts source for end of life products?
by Doug Porter 08 Sep '99

08 Sep '99

"Shaun T. Erickson" wrote: > sirbruce(a)ix.netcom.com wrote: > > > > On 08/30/99 23:49:43 you wrote: > > >However, the price of RAM from NetApp was 3-5x the price (I forget exactly > > >how much) of the approved Kingston SIMM. So, we just purchased 16 SIMMs > > >from our Kingston supplier, saving significant amounts of cash, and we > > >kept the 4 excess SIMMS in our `hot spare' store. It works like a charm. > > > > A cautionary note - much of the supposedly "in-spec" memory Kingston > > or other vendors sell is not capable of handling the strict timing > > and loading requirements of a Netapp filer. The reason the SIMMs > > you get from Netapp cost more is because they are tested for proper > > tolerance and inoperability. If you decide to use another source, > > you should be prepared for the chance of crashes or spontaneous > > reboots and be prepared to go through several cycles of swapping > > various SIMMs in various combinations to figure out the problem. > > Then NetApp shouldn't certify them. If I buy memory NetApp approved > memory from Kingston (and I have), I expect it to perform as well as > NetApp supplied memory. I don't expect NetApp to recommend sub-standard > memory for me to buy. > Hmm - Anyone ever remember buying single and double density floppy disks? The doubles usually cost a whole lot more (almost double when they first came out) The only difference was in the testing. They all came out of the same production run - some passed the dd tolerance test - some didn't - the ones that didn't became single density. All from the same manufacture. The same is true for memory, disk, and just about anything else that is mass produced. (Kinda like airplane seats - get the most $ that you can - sell the cheap stuff to whoever will buy) dp > > -ste > > -- > Work: (908) 582-7629 Pager: (800) 756-1133 Cell: (908) 672-6456

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Re: Tedious booting from floppies
by Dave Atkin 07 Sep '99

07 Sep '99

Thanks for all the replies. We'll use the "setenv floppy-boot? true" next time. Some people asked about the crashes we had. It was when we moved a set of SCSI disks onto a 740 from a 230, having first renamed the volume on the old 230 to be called "old". The 740 also had some FCAL disks, although it didn't make any difference to the crash whether or not they were connected. We booted the 740 with 5.2.2P1 in maintenance mode (in order to sort out the volume names) from floppy with the old disks plugged into the new differential SCSI shelf. The sequence was: > vol status raid_checklabels(0): disk 8a.0 has serialno 0016784334 but system has serialno 0016792113 raid_checklabels(0): disk 8a.0 has serialno 0016784334 but system has serialno 0016792113 raid_checklabels(1): disk 8a.0 has serialno 0016784334 but system has serialno 0016792113 raid_checklabels(1): disk 8a.0 has serialno 0016784334 but system has serialno 0016792113 raid_checklabels(2): disk 8a.0 has serialno 0016784334 but system has serialno 0016792113 raid_checklabels(2): disk 8a.0 has serialno 0016784334 but system has serialno 0016792113 No root volume found. You must specify a root volume with "vol options <volname> root" before rebooting the system. Volume State Status Options old offline foreign > vol online old PANIC: MM fault MMCSR=1, type=0, VA=0x128, PC=0xfffffc 00003b967c --- This was quite repeatable. The trick we evenually discovered was to disconnect the FCAL shelf, do a "boot without /etc/rc" so that it gave the message about "discarding the NVRAM contents", and made the volume available instead of labelling it "foreign". Dave Atkin ------------------------------------------------------ Dave Atkin, Head of Technical Services Computing Service, University of York, YORK YO10 5DD Phone: +44-1904-433804 (ddi) Fax: +44-1904-433740 Email: D.Atkin(a)york.ac.uk ------------------------------------------------------

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Re: Tedious booting from floppies
by alexei＠mindspring.net 07 Sep '99

07 Sep '99

armijo(a)cs.unm.edu writes: > this would be very cool, or better yet: 'boot cdrom', which i have heard > rumored several times , anyone at NetApp want to confirm/deny this may > actually happen? cdrom would be ok, better than floppies, but still limiting in other ways. With floppies, you can make new images as often as you like or need. With cdrom's, you are stuck unless you have a cd burner (which are more common place now) and the time to spend doing so. I think a better solution would be to use the same media the digital cameras of today use. If you use the SmartMedia style, you are limited to the size of images (I think it only goes to 16MB right now). The CompactFlash cards are much sturdier and go to 96MB. The great things with either of these formats are: - cheap media - inexpensive media readers ($70 for a USB version) - good support across most OS'es for the readers - PCMCIA media adapters (so PCMCIA might be a good interface to the filer) and: - I can go to WalMart at 3AM and buy the media and card reader in case of an emergency Including this as a peripheral with every filer is inexpensive (well, cheaper than a ZIP drive or a cdrom burner). I realize there are many competing formats for the next generation of filer boot media, but the digital cameras are pretty wide spread now and the flash card format will be around a while. Alex

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Re: Web Hits per NFS ops/s ?
by sirbruce＠ix.netcom.com 05 Sep '99

05 Sep '99

On 09/04/99 17:00:02 you wrote: >Not sure about the theoretical case but here's some stats from a system of >heavily tuned Apache web servers running Linux 2.0 (NFS V2) mounting a >NetApp for all content. It's only serving plain content - no scripts. > >Average NFS operations per url is 7.96. Why no writes? Do you not keep your log file(s) on the same filer? And what about when you update content? Bruce

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Re: moving stuff among qtrees
by sirbruce＠ix.netcom.com 05 Sep '99

05 Sep '99

On 09/04/99 13:23:47 you wrote: > >On Fri, 3 Sep 1999 sirbruce(a)ix.netcom.com wrote: >> >> So to change the ID requires essentially a recursive chown-type >> operation that is always going to be proportional to the amount of >> data "schlepped". > > If it really was as fast as a recursive chwon, that would be >great, but the Netapp still issues a copy/unlink instead of a rename >when moving files between quota trees. This isn't the fault of the >client either, because the same thing happens if I mount the filer's >root filesystem on the client (so it thinks it is one filesystem), and >do a move from there. Hmm, this doesn't make any sense to me. Shouldn't do that if the client has the root mounted, and in any case I don't know how one would fine out what ops the Netapp is "issueing" to itself. Perhaps it's reported in the NFS ops mix? But if that's the case, then you have an issue as to whether or not those commands should report only what the client is sending (my view) or what operations the Netapp is translating that to internally (your contention that it does now). How about an official "wafl_stat" command? Bruce

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None
by Michael Batterden 04 Sep '99

04 Sep '99

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Re: moving stuff among qtrees
by sirbruce＠ix.netcom.com 04 Sep '99

04 Sep '99

On 09/03/99 10:55:20 you wrote: >Can anybody suggest a way to schlep a hierarchy around that is not >O(n) in this annoying way? A qtree identifier is essentially just a third ID, just like user and group ID, set on each file and inherited from the parent directory. So to change the ID requires essentially a recursive chown-type operation that is always going to be proportional to the amount of data "schlepped". I suppose one could implement a scheme where the changes were not made right away, and instead upon access each parent was checked back to the root to see if the file has the "wrong" qtree ID for the qtree and if so, correct it and then let you access it, but that would be very slow. Bruce

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Web Hits per NFS ops/s ?
by Steven Clarke 04 Sep '99

04 Sep '99

Not sure about the theoretical case but here's some stats from a system of heavily tuned Apache web servers running Linux 2.0 (NFS V2) mounting a NetApp for all content. It's only serving plain content - no scripts. Average NFS operations per url is 7.96. getattr 31867993 10% lookup 142423109 45% read 145310674 45% readdir 58359 0% statfs 30 0% File size breakdown: Percent File Sizes 0.000 0 0.000 1b- 10b 0.001 11b- 100b 0.172 101b- 1kb 7.633 1kb- 10kb 19.897 10kb-100kb 10.331 100kb- 1Mb 61.822 1Mb- 10Mb 0.145 10Mb-100Mb Steve Clarke

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Windows 2000 domain controllers
by Brian Rice 03 Sep '99

03 Sep '99

Hi, all. One of my clients, for excellent reasons of its own, is migrating its domain controllers to Windows 2000 (which is the artist formerly known as NT 5). This means that their CIFS-running NetApps have to play nice. I had been aware that NetApp had put a fix for this into 5.3D16, and when 5.3.2R1 came out I (naively, as it turned out) assumed that that fix would be included. So I brought up a borrowed test filer on 5.3.2R1, and found that it would happily register itself in an Windows-2000-controlled domain...once. If you shut CIFS down and restarted it, the filer would give up on finding a domain controller, and client accesses to the filer would time out. And then you often would not be able to cleanly terminate CIFS again; after 90 seconds of waiting, the filer would invite you to shut down the system using halt -d and send the resulting core dump to NAC. Heh. A call to my friendly tech-support person revealed that the fix was actually not in 5.3.2R1, but was in 5.3.2D3. Aha. So I moved to 5.3.2D3, and now it's playing nice. The build of W2K in play here was 2072. Hope this helps other pioneers out there. Brian

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Re: Web Hits per NFS ops/s ?
by sirbruce＠ix.netcom.com 03 Sep '99

03 Sep '99

On 09/02/99 23:51:59 you wrote: >(The number just thrown out, with no justification, was > > Each "hit" results in 5 NFS operations. > >I'm sitting here pounding my head trying to understand the "5". > >V3 might yield: > > LOOKUP > ACCESS > READ > >Per page hit. Is average object size 8 - 12KB? So one read on V3? >I assume Apache front ends are not "browsing" they're firing names >at the filer. Etc. It has to be even more on the average. First you'd have to deal with pathname translations, which would be stored in a file somewhere on the filer that would have to be accessed first. I suppose it might keep those in memory, so it doesn't have to read that file with every hit, but you also have other files that govern access control potentially for each directory. Then your web server will probably also log each hit, and since that log file is going to get big you're going to be putting that on the filer as well. And I'm sure there must be more. It all depends on exactly what the web server has to handle when doing a hit. There may even be temp files involved that are created and deleted. Bottom-line is I would expect a hit to yield, say, 10 ops, but remember the average page has many objects all of which have to be open and read, although they may not be all logged. Bruce

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moving stuff among qtrees
by Brian Rice 03 Sep '99

03 Sep '99

Here's something that's puzzled me about NetApps for a long time. I would often like to move entire hierarchies of directories out from under one qtree into another. And I'd like to do it fast. I can see why this should take a long time if the qtrees were in different volumes, but they're not. And I can see why this should take a long time if quotas were being enforced, but I do a quota off before the move and a quota on afterwards. And it still takes forever...a forever, in fact, that is proportional to the quantity of data being relocated, so it looks as if files are being copied on the disk surface. Huh? Can anybody suggest a way to schlep a hierarchy around that is not O(n) in this annoying way? (Incidentally, the last time I tried this was on a 5.1.x). Brian

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