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13531 discussions

Max disk limit on F740?
by Öberg Mats 01 Mar '00

01 Mar '00

Hi, I have some questions about the maximum amount of disk allowed on the F740. Is it a hard limit on the total disksize or the useable disksize? ie. do you count the hotspares? The 1TB limit: is it 2^40 or 10^12? or some other fixed number? ----- Mats Oberg / TietoEnator Sweden

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RE: Running du's
by Mohler,Anissa 29 Feb '00

29 Feb '00

You don't have to set a rediculously high quota limit to track disk and file usage you can use a dash (-) in the /etc/quotas file for any item that you wish to track without imposing a quota limit. Then run quota report to see the disk/file usage for all users that you wanted to track. Thus you would end up with a line in your quotas file like this: #target type disk files * users - - which will track disk and file usage for all users w/o worry about imposing a quota on them. This link provides a good explanation: http://now.netapp.com/NOW/knowledge/docs/ontap/rel53/html/sag/quota1.htm Hope this helps! Anissa :-----Original Message----- :From: Bruce Sterling Woodcock [mailto:sirbruce@ix.netcom.com] :Sent: Tuesday, February 29, 2000 8:39 AM : :----- Original Message ----- :From: Derek Kelly <derek.kelly(a)genomecorp.com> :To: <toasters(a)mathworks.com> : : :> This may be a fruitless search for info but i'm interested in hearing :> about how folks are handling disk usage stats on large quantities of :> data (say 2 or more TB). : :Give every user a quota, but set the quota so outrageously :high they won't :encounter it. Then the quota report will give you instant :usage for any :user, and it will count everything on that filesytem, not just :the stuff in :his :home directory. : :Bruce : :

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Re: Running du's
by Tom Reingold 29 Feb '00

29 Feb '00

Yes, and since quota report counts all files on that quota tree (or volume), it doesn't necessarily give you the information you're after. For instance, if you want to move a directory tree from one quota tree (or volume) to another, you have to run du to know its size. The problem remains, as far as I know. On Tue, 29 Feb 2000 08:39:29 PST, "Bruce Sterling Woodcock" <sirbruce(a)ix.netcom.com> wrote: > Give every user a quota, but set the quota so outrageously high they won't > encounter it. Then the quota report will give you instant usage for any > user, and it will count everything on that filesytem, not just the stuff in > his > home directory. > > Bruce

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Concerned about quick EOL for 9 gig drives
by Thomas Leavitt 29 Feb '00

29 Feb '00

Hello all... we're in the final stages of purchasing a NetApp F740 to host our Sybase (or Oracle, eventually) database on. The device will be populated with 18 gigabyte drives, to balance # spindles with total storage capabilities. At the moment, the 36 gigabyte drives don't look to be appropriate to our needs or cost-effective. However, I'm concerned at the relative speed with which the 9 gigabyte drives were EOL'd and then became unavailable for sale. Is there a scheduled time-frame for EOL on the 18 gigabyte drives? Should I specify 36 gigabyte drives, just to be safe and have a reasonable time frame for continued acquisition of the same type of drive? Thomas P.S. Thanks to everyone who responded previously to my query about people's experience running databases off a NetApp... I'm confident now that this is a feasible solution, and that the benefits are pretty compelling. The last obstacle is simply arranging to actually demonstrate this working in a test environment, before going forward. -- Thomas Leavitt -- thomas.leavitt(a)clickrebates.com; 408-591-3342 (cell) Co-Founder/COO, ClickRebates.Com, Inc. The Leader in C2B(tm) - empower yourself, get rewarded for your time on-line! Sign up at: https://secure.clickdough.com/servlets/cr/CRSignup.po?referral_id=tvl

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Re: User viewing quota
by dnb＠ccs.neu.edu 29 Feb '00

29 Feb '00

Howdy- If it is any comfort to you, NetApp knows about this problem (and can reproduce it in their lab). Bug 13364 was opened for me on 3-10-99 for this exact problem. I've pretty much given up on getting this mostly cosmetic problem fixed (though perhaps I should celebrate it's anniversary), so we tell people to use the magic of grep. Respectfully, David N. Blank-Edelman Director of Technology College of Computer Science Northeastern University

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RE: Sharing Files through cifs
by David Stack 28 Feb '00

28 Feb '00

If you set options cifs.home_dir /home in you /etc/rc file, each user should be able to map directly to their account. This is what we are doing and it works very well. Makes it nicer for the user and much simpler to administer and a real NT server. From the man page on options: cifs.home_dir When set to the pathname of a directory, this defines the path to the ``homes directory''. The directories under this path should have the names of users as their names. When a user connects to the filer using CIFS and there is a directory name that exactly matches the user's lower-cased Windows login name, they will see a share of that name (truncated to 12 characters) that is their ``home directory". Only the user can access the home directory using this share. All other users cannot see the share name since they are logged in under a different user. Dave ******************************************************************** EMail: dstack(a)nortelnetworks.com Phone: 403-232-4752 Fax: 781-8850 ESN:765 Addr : Nortel Networks; 2924 11 St. NE; Calgary, AB; T2E 7L7;Canada ******************************************************************** > -----Original Message----- > From: Benn, Paul [mailto:paul.benn@netapp.com] > Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2000 10:24 PM > To: 'bhaskar.g(a)philips.com'; toasters(a)mathworks.com > Subject: RE: Sharing Files through cifs > > > Bhaskar, > > Yes, you can share the user directories separately. It can be > done from the > console prompt, FilerView or from the Windows NT Server > Manager. This can be > a bit hard to manage and decrease throughput if you have a > lot of users, > though. Even if the individual user directories are NOT > shared, you should > still be able to specify a direct path as \\filer\username. > > -----Original Message----- > From: bhaskar.g(a)philips.com [mailto:bhaskar.g@philips.com] > Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2000 8:53 PM > To: toasters(a)mathworks.com > Subject: Sharing Files through cifs > > > Hi all, > > I have a query regarding the sharing of files using CIFS. > > I have all the unix users' home directories on the volume > /vol/vol0/home. I > have shared the home using CIFS share. > I want all the user home directories to mapped as h: , but as > i have done > the above step i may to access the > users' homedirectories as h:\username. > > Please let me know if there is any option to share all the user's home > directories separately, not the home folder > but \home\username folder > > > regards > > Bhaskar G > Systems Engineer, > Philips Semiconductors, > #3, Sterling Square,Madras Bank Road, > Off St Mark's Road,BANGALORE-560 001. > Voice : +91 80 222 9200 Ext 5060 > Fax: +91 80 2229700 >

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RE: Sharing Files through cifs
by Mohler,Anissa 28 Feb '00

28 Feb '00

You can set an option called the CIFS Auto Home Share. In your case you would type options cifs.home_dir /vol/vol0/home Then as long as the cifs users' username match the directory name they will be able to individually map drive H: to their own share .... net use H: \\filer\username You can get more information on this feature by looking at the NOW web site http://now.netapp.com/NOW/knowledge/docs/ontap/rel534/html/sag/cifs12.htm Hope that helps. :-----Original Message----- :From: bhaskar.g(a)philips.com [mailto:bhaskar.g@philips.com] :Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2000 8:53 PM :To: toasters(a)mathworks.com :Subject: Sharing Files through cifs : : :Hi all, : :I have a query regarding the sharing of files using CIFS. : :I have all the unix users' home directories on the volume :/vol/vol0/home. I have shared the home using CIFS share. :I want all the user home directories to mapped as h: , but as :i have done the above step i may to access the :users' homedirectories as h:\username. : :Please let me know if there is any option to share all the :user's home directories separately, not the home folder :but \home\username folder : : :regards : :Bhaskar G :Systems Engineer, :Philips Semiconductors, :#3, Sterling Square,Madras Bank Road, :Off St Mark's Road,BANGALORE-560 001. :Voice : +91 80 222 9200 Ext 5060 :Fax: +91 80 2229700 :

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RE: informix and netapps
by Pickering, Laura 28 Feb '00

28 Feb '00

In addition, we have several customers like Tiroler Tageszeitung, the largest Austrian newspaper, that have been running Informix with NetApp for several years. -----Original Message----- From: Marchi, Michael Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 4:19 PM To: 'Stephen C. Woods'; toasters(a)mathworks.com Cc: Clifton, Richard; Clarke, Bruce; Pickering, Laura Subject: RE: informix and netapps Note the press release with Informix on 1/25 which confirms NetApp certification with Informix. I believe the person you spoke to at Informix is misinformed. If you pass us the Informix contacts we will follow up. http://www.netapp.com/news/press/news_rel_20000125a.html Hope this helps. Mike -----Original Message----- From: Stephen C. Woods [mailto:scw@seas.ucla.edu] Sent: February 24, 2000 3:39 PM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: informix and netapps Out admin folks have a bunch of INFORMIX(tm) databases that we're thinking about moving to a filer (740 5.3.2). The issue is database locking we've been told by Informix that they don't support databases on nfs filesystems because of locking problems. Is anyone here using INFORMIX on an NFS filsystem imported from a filer? On one machine? Multiple machines? Multiple databases? ----- Stephen C. Woods; UCLA SEASnet; 2567 Boelter hall; LA CA 90095; (310)-825-8614 Finger for public key scw(a)cirrus.seas.ucla.edu,Internet mail:scw@SEAS.UCLA.EDU

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RE: Sharing Files through cifs
by Benn, Paul 28 Feb '00

28 Feb '00

Bhaskar, Yes, you can share the user directories separately. It can be done from the console prompt, FilerView or from the Windows NT Server Manager. This can be a bit hard to manage and decrease throughput if you have a lot of users, though. Even if the individual user directories are NOT shared, you should still be able to specify a direct path as \\filer\username. -----Original Message----- From: bhaskar.g(a)philips.com [mailto:bhaskar.g@philips.com] Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2000 8:53 PM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: Sharing Files through cifs Hi all, I have a query regarding the sharing of files using CIFS. I have all the unix users' home directories on the volume /vol/vol0/home. I have shared the home using CIFS share. I want all the user home directories to mapped as h: , but as i have done the above step i may to access the users' homedirectories as h:\username. Please let me know if there is any option to share all the user's home directories separately, not the home folder but \home\username folder regards Bhaskar G Systems Engineer, Philips Semiconductors, #3, Sterling Square,Madras Bank Road, Off St Mark's Road,BANGALORE-560 001. Voice : +91 80 222 9200 Ext 5060 Fax: +91 80 2229700

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Sharing Files through cifs
by bhaskar.g＠philips.com 28 Feb '00

28 Feb '00

Hi all, I have a query regarding the sharing of files using CIFS. I have all the unix users' home directories on the volume /vol/vol0/home. I have shared the home using CIFS share. I want all the user home directories to mapped as h: , but as i have done the above step i may to access the users' homedirectories as h:\username. Please let me know if there is any option to share all the user's home directories separately, not the home folder but \home\username folder regards Bhaskar G Systems Engineer, Philips Semiconductors, #3, Sterling Square,Madras Bank Road, Off St Mark's Road,BANGALORE-560 001. Voice : +91 80 222 9200 Ext 5060 Fax: +91 80 2229700

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Backup of a Filer 720 using Omniback
by bhaskar.g＠philips.com 28 Feb '00

28 Feb '00

Hi , Please let me know whether it is possible to backup files on a Filer using HP omniback. if yes, how to do the same? regards Bhaskar G Systems Engineer, Philips Semiconductors, #3, Sterling Square,Madras Bank Road, Off St Mark's Road,BANGALORE-560 001. Voice : +91 80 222 9200 Ext 5060 Fax: +91 80 2229700

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RE: mv'ing between qtrees
by Muhlestein, Mark 25 Feb '00

25 Feb '00

The problem is that every inode in a qtree has a qtree id in it. You'd have to update the contents of the inode, adjusting the id and updating quotas. Of course, that would be faster (in most cases) than actually copying the data for all files. I'm sure there are other issues, such as the fact that any NFS filehandles referring to the old qtree would be stale, but it's an idea that keeps coming up so I've submitted an RFE for this: 22411. Mark Muhlestein -- mmm(a)netapp.com -----Original Message----- From: Graham C. Knight [mailto:grahamk@ast.lmco.com] Sent: Friday, February 25, 2000 7:38 AM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: mv'ing between qtrees Has anyone figured out a way to trick the system into allowing a lightning fast "mv" of directories/files in between qtrees that are on the same volume? It seems to me that the filesystem is actually the volume, and that qtree's are just built on top of that - so a "mv" *might* be possible with the right craftiness. Anyone done it? Can anyone tell me beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's impossible so i'll quit trying to figure out a way to do it?? The error i'm trying to work around is this one: doc*> qtree Volume Tree Style Oplocks -------- -------- ----- -------- vol0 unix enabled vol0 doc-1 mixed enabled vol0 test unix enabled vol0 test2 unix enabled doc*> mv /test/testing1 /test2 rename: Cross-device link doc*> Thx, Graham

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Tivoli Anyone
by Michael Plett 25 Feb '00

25 Feb '00

Has anybody use Network Appliance filers or know if they work with IBM's Tivoli product? ********************************************************************* Michael Plett Application Engineer Axis Technologies Office: 972/588-1874 16633 Dallas Parkway Fax: 972/588-1876 Suite 600 Email:maplett@axistec.com Dallas, TX 75248 USA http://www.axistec.com ********************************************************************* ___ _ _______ _ / _ \ __ __ (_) ___ |__ __| __ __ | |_ | |_| | \ \/ / | | ( __) | | / _) / _)| _ \ | _ | > < | | _ \ | | ( _)( |_ | | | | |_| |_| /_/\_\ |_| (___) |_| \__) \__)|_| |_|

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Requested: expuiriences with Legato client for a NetApp filer
by Schepers, Jan 25 Feb '00

25 Feb '00

Hello people, I'm looking for persons that have expirience with the Legato client for NetApp filers. We're having problems using it and I'd like to share some information with people who (un)succesful use it. I'm offering to summerize in this list when you prefer to discuss offline. TIA, Yann mailto:Jan.Schepers@nl.origin-it.com

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NVRAM memory
by Jay Orr 25 Feb '00

25 Feb '00

Here's a question - we had to replace some parts in our F330, and ended up only putting 2 of the 4 simms from the NVRAM card back onto the card. What kind of performance does more/less NVRAM have on a filer? ----------- Jay Orr Systems Administrator Fujitsu Nexion Inc. St. Louis, MO

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Re: How to Create ClearCase VOB on filer F720
by Will Partain 25 Feb '00

25 Feb '00

John Stoffel <john(a)casc.com> writes: > 1. VOBs cannot be on NetApps True, but VOB storage pools can be. (That's the great bulk of VOB storage anyway.) > 3. You can NOT snapshot a VOB without first locking the VOB to make > sure it is consistent. Yep; the way we used to do it: (a) lock the VOB, (b) copy over the non-storage-pool VOB stuff to the filer [so you've got all the VOB stuff in "one place"]; (c) snapshot; (d) unlock the VOB; (e) take a copy of the snapshot at your leisure; (f) delete the snapshot. Will PS: Any, you're in Motorola, I can even give you the code required :-)

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mv'ing between qtrees
by Graham C. Knight 25 Feb '00

25 Feb '00

Has anyone figured out a way to trick the system into allowing a lightning fast "mv" of directories/files in between qtrees that are on the same volume? It seems to me that the filesystem is actually the volume, and that qtree's are just built on top of that - so a "mv" *might* be possible with the right craftiness. Anyone done it? Can anyone tell me beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's impossible so i'll quit trying to figure out a way to do it?? The error i'm trying to work around is this one: doc*> qtree Volume Tree Style Oplocks -------- -------- ----- -------- vol0 unix enabled vol0 doc-1 mixed enabled vol0 test unix enabled vol0 test2 unix enabled doc*> mv /test/testing1 /test2 rename: Cross-device link doc*> Thx, Graham

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informix and netapps
by Stephen C. Woods 25 Feb '00

25 Feb '00

Out admin folks have a bunch of INFORMIX(tm) databases that we're thinking about moving to a filer (740 5.3.2). The issue is database locking we've been told by Informix that they don't support databases on nfs filesystems because of locking problems. Is anyone here using INFORMIX on an NFS filsystem imported from a filer? On one machine? Multiple machines? Multiple databases? ----- Stephen C. Woods; UCLA SEASnet; 2567 Boelter hall; LA CA 90095; (310)-825-8614 Finger for public key scw(a)cirrus.seas.ucla.edu,Internet mail:scw@SEAS.UCLA.EDU

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RE: informix and netapps
by Marchi, Michael 25 Feb '00

25 Feb '00

Note the press release with Informix on 1/25 which confirms NetApp certification with Informix. I believe the person you spoke to at Informix is misinformed. If you pass us the Informix contacts we will follow up. http://www.netapp.com/news/press/news_rel_20000125a.html Hope this helps. Mike -----Original Message----- From: Stephen C. Woods [mailto:scw@seas.ucla.edu] Sent: February 24, 2000 3:39 PM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: informix and netapps Out admin folks have a bunch of INFORMIX(tm) databases that we're thinking about moving to a filer (740 5.3.2). The issue is database locking we've been told by Informix that they don't support databases on nfs filesystems because of locking problems. Is anyone here using INFORMIX on an NFS filsystem imported from a filer? On one machine? Multiple machines? Multiple databases? ----- Stephen C. Woods; UCLA SEASnet; 2567 Boelter hall; LA CA 90095; (310)-825-8614 Finger for public key scw(a)cirrus.seas.ucla.edu,Internet mail:scw@SEAS.UCLA.EDU

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RE: informix and netapps
by Moore, Duncan 25 Feb '00

25 Feb '00

Network Appliance and Informix announced Certification for Filers in a Informix database environments this year in January. Press release link below: http://www.netapp.com/news/press/news_rel_20000125a.html I hope this helps. Duncan -----Original Message----- From: Stephen C. Woods [mailto:scw@seas.ucla.edu] Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 3:39 PM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: informix and netapps Out admin folks have a bunch of INFORMIX(tm) databases that we're thinking about moving to a filer (740 5.3.2). The issue is database locking we've been told by Informix that they don't support databases on nfs filesystems because of locking problems. Is anyone here using INFORMIX on an NFS filsystem imported from a filer? On one machine? Multiple machines? Multiple databases? ----- Stephen C. Woods; UCLA SEASnet; 2567 Boelter hall; LA CA 90095; (310)-825-8614 Finger for public key scw(a)cirrus.seas.ucla.edu,Internet mail:scw@SEAS.UCLA.EDU

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RE: informix and netapps
by Mohler,Anissa 25 Feb '00

25 Feb '00

That's interesting... Informix has certified NetApp for storage... see this release. http://www.netapp.com/news/press/news_rel_20000125a.html I'm sure your local NetApp sales rep can give you more details about which specific versions of Informix products we are certified for. :-----Original Message----- :From: Stephen C. Woods [mailto:scw@seas.ucla.edu] :Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2000 3:39 PM :To: toasters(a)mathworks.com :Subject: informix and netapps : : : Out admin folks have a bunch of INFORMIX(tm) databases that :we're thinking :about moving to a filer (740 5.3.2). : : The issue is database locking we've been told by Informix :that they don't :support databases on nfs filesystems because of locking problems. : : Is anyone here using INFORMIX on an NFS filsystem imported from a :filer? On one machine? Multiple machines? Multiple databases? : :----- :Stephen C. Woods; UCLA SEASnet; 2567 Boelter hall; LA CA :90095; (310)-825-8614 :Finger for public key scw(a)cirrus.seas.ucla.edu,Internet :mail:scw@SEAS.UCLA.EDU :

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Re: Disk drive technology
by mds＠gbnet.net 24 Feb '00

24 Feb '00

On Thu 24 Feb, 2000, Noah <sitz(a)onastick.net> wrote: > > In a similar vein, I find that my raid-fu is not has good as I'd like it > to be. Anyone know of any resources (on/offline) that goes into a fair > amount of detail on RAID, RAID sets, configuring for performance, and/or > whatever else I should know but may not? Well I believe these books are a pretty good grounder in such matters: The RAID Book, A Storage System Technology Handbook (6th ed) by Paul Massiglia, Copyright the RAID Advisory Board, 1997, published by Peer-to-Peer Redundant Disk Arrays, Reliable, Parallel Secondary Storage by Garth A Gibson, The MIT Press, 1992 Configuration and Capacity Planning for Solaris Servers by Brian Wong, Prentice Hall, 1997 The first book is very clear and covers RAID well. Gibson's book is the dissertation he wrote developing the ideas of the original RAID papers that he had been involved in earlier. And Wong's book has lots of fairly transferable ideas about (large) server configuration. I've yet to find anything specific to filers, apart from: http://www.netapp.com/tech_library/3008.html Unfortunately it's now 4 years old and covers soon-to-be-obsoleted equipment, though the universals ring true. I'd be interested in other recommendations myself! -- End of excerpt from Noah -- -Mark ... an Englishman in London ...

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Re: Rename a qtree?
by tkaczma＠gryf.net 24 Feb '00

24 Feb '00

And the right answer is (I just tried it on a non-production filer) the qtree is copied as a directory. All the underlying files also change their inodes. Tom On Thu, 24 Feb 2000, Timothy A. McCarthy wrote: > Well, since the qtree exists at the top level anyway, > I would expect the move to be from a client at which > point it would be an illegal move across filesystems. > > --tmac > > tkaczma(a)gryf.net wrote: > > > On Tue, 22 Feb 2000, Eyal Traitel wrote: > > > > > You've did everything fine from my experience. > > > "mv"-ing the qtree's name does not change its inode, so it doesn't change > > > its internal essence as a qtree. > > > > Speaking of which, I've never tried it, but what would happen if you tried > > to move a qtree up the directory hierarchy? Would it be converted to a > > plain ol'e directory, ... ? > > > > Tom > > >

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DLT 8000's
by Jay Orr 24 Feb '00

24 Feb '00

Humm, dunno if there are others who were waiting for DLT 8000 drives/jukeboxes. I know overland had a hold on theirs because of an "engineering hold". That said, I received my Loader Express 810 today, so looks like things have bee resolved. FYI... ----------- Jay Orr Systems Administrator Fujitsu Nexion Inc. St. Louis, MO

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Re: Disk drive technology
by mds＠gbnet.net 24 Feb '00

24 Feb '00

On Wed 23 Feb, 2000, "Mohler, Jeff" <jeff.mohler(a)netapp.com> wrote: > I dont have any solid data on data/stripe/drivesize performance handy, but it is > a wise move to not span raid-groups over multiple FCAL controllers. There will > be write degredation involved with that that I have seen. With two F760s > rebuilding a manually failed drive while doing nothing else, the machine without > a stripe split across FCAL cards completed about 25% before the machine that did > span FCAL cards for a raid stripe. > > mkfile tests from Solaris confirmed what Id heard..and saw in the reconstruct as > part of my test. This strikes me as very interesting. Until now I'd have reasoned that having two times the bandwidth to the spindles, and the lower latency that implies as well, (having only a proportion of io's in flight on each channel getting in the way of subsequent io's), would have benefitted RAID rebuilding - which is the nastiest case where all stripes must be read, XOR'd-over and blocks written to one disk. Can anyone explain why this would be so? >-- End of excerpt from "Mohler, Jeff" On Wed 23 Feb, 2000, "Bruce Sterling Woodcock" <sirbruce(a)ix.netcom.com> wrote: > Probably not until late this year or next. Fair enough. I imagine they might appear with new product, as it's been a while.. *speculates wildly* > The complete model depends entirely on your filer model, the OS version, > exactly what disks you have, how much memory, what your op mix is, etc. Well, yes, but that's not impossible to plug into an analytical model. I'd also hope that these low-level functions were pretty finely tuned in DOT and not as amenable to radical change.. > The make very little difference. On the order of 10% for most people. > As to WHY, it's because Netapp finely balances their filers for maximum > performance at typical op mixes. They are not like a competitor, which > throws a bunch of hardware at a problem and you are expected to juggle > it to figure out what works. Netapp wants to deliver a simple solution. Yeees. However, there's a touch of faith creeping in here. I don't think it's misplaced, certainly, I think NetApp's are my favourite fileservers for these reasons. I guess I'm just getting more cycnical and evidence-biased as I get older. 8) > There are some performance papers on Netapp's web site that address > some of your questions, and people are free to post their personal > experiences here, but what works for one environment may not work > for another. I would be reluctant to tell you to go out and buy more > drives you don't need if it won't help you. Indeed, me too. But how can we quantitatively be confident ahead of time? > Given that those tables constantly change with the variables (drives, > memory, OS, etc.) rules of thumb is probably the best you can do, unless > you have a few million to spend on testing every possible configuration > and reporting the results. :) Well I know only one place and one group of people that could undertake this, and they sell the boxes. I'd be very susprised if the creators, the engineers, haven't got *something* going on in this line. > There is no best. There is only what is best for your environment. Yes, I'd like to think my 'best' would be considered as predicated on the requirements. I'm not an absolutist, or at least I try not to be. > I would guess slightly better, since the 18 gig drives are probably faster > and you have 2 loops to share the load. However, since the bottleneck > will be the NVRAM, I doubt there will be a major noticeable difference. Ah, I was thinking more about this - the nvram emptying after a cp takes time and that is a key determinant in whether you'll be taking a cp from a cp or not, in turn being a key determinant in user-visible performance. This nvram emptying is surely determined in turn by how rapidly the blocks can be pushed to disk, in which case the speed of the disks and the utility of multiple loops may have some impact, surely? Or is the WAFL so good at distributing writes, and the bandwidth and latency of a single loop such a good match for the nvram that this is a null-term? > I can't consider them if you don't say what they are. I meant, consider whether they're a big factor or not. I was thinking about the two scenarios using the same 10-spindle RAID set size. In the average case the DOT algorithm has to read a few blocks from each of a few disks from a given RAID set, perform the parity XOR over those blocks and the blocks it intends to write, generate the parity, and then write all those new blocks to the disks that it has elected to write to during a cp flush, always including the parity disk. Having fewer spindles means more load per spindle, having fewer loops means more load per loop. How much does the cpu have to do, how much can be DMA'd or otherwise fobbed-off. How little time can you whittle the nvram empty down to? I mean, to be reliable you have to await the completion notice from each disk for each io sent, and I don't believe 18GB disks to be capable of 2x the io's of 9GB disks. Serialising 4 RAID sets on one loop though, even with more disk-ios/second, will probably increase the final-response time to do a full nvram flush by a goodly chunk over the scenario with 2 loops. Given a pathalogical filer setup I could see that increasing the nvram on a write-burdened filer might actually make the problem worse rather than better. How does an admin, especially one not so very interested and aware of these things, approach a filer that is struggling but they don't know why or how to fix it? > You can't know if you got it right unless you have an exact simulation > of your particular ops mix and traffic patterns. Since you don't have > that, then basically you have to use rules of thumb and guess and adjust > when needed. Your environment changes over time, too, so what works > one day may not work another. Mmm, all of which makes me lean toward an analytical model, as it should be more powerful in dealing with these imponderables: plug in the numbers and see how it comes out. Real testing and simulation would make useful checks against such a model, natch. > Maybe it's just me, but while I love having numbers and data, I've always > found such tuning tasks to be far more intuitive and situational. Well, yes, I guess this is because we're human and quite good at dealing with vague and wooly things that nevertheless have patterns that can be extracted with experience. > I mean, if > I have a chart that says such-and-such filer with such-and-such configuration > can handle 200 users, and the filer in my environment overloads at 100 > users, I'm not gonna keep adding users. Conversely, if it runs at 50% and > high cache age with 200 users, I'm not going to worry about adding more. True. Computers aren't as deterministic as they once were and we have to deal with what's really there, however I think there is scope for better models than none-at-all, or 'ask Bruce or Mark, they're good with filers'. I also wouldn't advocate *such* a simple model, at least not alone. > If a filer is overloaded with reads, and I haven't maxxed the RAM yet, I'm > probably going to max the RAM first. Then I'll worry about adding more > disks, and if that doesn't help, I'll know I need to reduce traffic and get > another filer. There are some minor variations to this, of course, but I'm > not going to waste a lot of time beforehand trying to predict exactly how > many disks and how much memory I need when the reality can quickly > change. Estimate, yes, but I won't follow a strict chart. Okey, so perhaps I've overemphasised the model and chart thing, or perhaps you're playing devil's advocate to my credulous believer. As a tool in the salesman's, field engineer's and admin's box'o'tricks though, a configurator other than than the SPEC result-sheets would be a very neat thing to have. And as for wasting a lot of time beforehand - that's rather my point. You wouldn't have to waste time, or a lot of it. So long as the results of a model were within a few tens of percent then your putative admin has gotten close enough to start tuning, rather than transhipping for the larger machine they thought they might need but chickened out of. Better, they find they're peaking just below the capability of the box they ordered and didn't cough up for the big-expensive beast they'd otherwise have bought "just in case". >-- End of excerpt from "Bruce Sterling Woodcock" -- -Mark ... an Englishman in London ...

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