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13531 discussions

RE: Filer storage for databases, seriously? (Was: Re: NetApp ques tions)
by Sims, Aaron 15 Aug '00

15 Aug '00

You're right about one thing... all things are not equal. You raised some good points along the way... see below for my annotations. > -----Original Message----- > From: Brian Tao [mailto:taob@risc.org] > Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2000 2:33 PM > To: Pesce, Nicholas (FUSA) > Cc: keith(a)netapp.com; toasters(a)mathworks.com > Subject: RE: Filer storage for databases, seriously? (Was: Re: NetApp > ques tions) > > > On Wed, 9 Aug 2000, Pesce, Nicholas (FUSA) wrote: > > > > I'm sorry Keith. But I've heard this argument before. NFS versus > > Direct attatch storage? I'm going to have to vote for a good direct > > attach solution. Why? > > > > NFS and CIFS have huge overhead. > > Sure, as someone else mentioned, all other things being equal, > direct-attach storage is faster than network-attached storage. The > logic (which I've argued before as well) is simple: a NAS box talks > to its drives as DAS. Thus, the DAS must necessarily be "faster" > (yeah, a vague term). For example, setting caching aside, it is not > possible for a filer to pump 50MB/s of data to an NFS client if it can > only read 30MB/s off its own drives. One thing to remember in regards to caching... when you request a block on disk, your local OS (with direct attach storage) will read that block and read ahead several more blocks. Those read-ahead blocks will be transferred via your fibre channel, even if they aren't used by your application. The filer on the other hand will do the same read-ahead, but it will only transmit the block that was requested. If the application asks for the next block, then both have that block in memory. Now, in a database environment where blocks are very randomly placed within a filesystem, this read-ahead via direct attach storage is going to kill the efficiency of the bandwidth to your storage, and that's your OS's fault. Whereas with a filer, you can turn off read-ahead within the filer to minimize the work it does. > > However, all things are not equal, at least in benchmarks that are > possible in the real world. Yes, NFS and CIFS add overhead compared > to SCSI-over-FibreChannel or what have you. However, that is offset > by an optimized OS (Data ONTAP), by an efficient filesystem (WAFL), by > read and write caching, by an optimized TCP/IP stack, etc. If you > could port all that and run it to DAS, then you might have a fair > comparison. > > > I think I would like to see a test where the Disk sizes and number > > were similar, I sincerely doubt the Netapp would do as well. > > Depends on the application, of course, but I've been surprised > many times in the past when I thought for sure the Netapp would not be > able to keep up. I have a 4x450-MHz E420R with a VxVM RAID-0 device, > spread over 16 50GB 7200 rpm drives on two U2SCSI buses. The server > also has a Gigabit Ethernet connection to an F740 with one shelf of > 36GB 10000 rpm drives (5 data, 1 parity, 1 spare). The local > filesystem is vxfs, mounted with delaylog and the largest allowable > log area. > > I ran a few filesystem replication and backup/restore tests (this > is our central tape server). The local filesystem handily beat the > Netapp doing large sequential reads and writes (120MB/sec vs. > 22MB/sec)... no surprise there. File deletions were a little closer > (~2500 unlinks/sec on vxfs, ~2000 unlinks/sec on the Netapp). In all > other tests, the Netapp was as fast or faster (sometimes by a large > margin) than local filesystem. The Netapp seems to especially shine > when you have multiple processes reading and writing to all points on > the filesystem. vxfs does not appear to handle it as gracefully with > dozens or hundreds of concurrent access requests. This is an apples to oranges test. Sure, streaming to/from RAID0 will always kick ass. However, who really runs RAID0 these days??? (I'm sure there's about <.1% of applications where RAID0 is suitable, because the data is not critical) RAID 0+1 might be a slightly better comparison since the filer doesn't have a RAID0 mode. > I re-ran some of the same tests with a Veritas RAID-5 volume (to > be fair to the Netapp), but I stopped after the first couple. There > is no contest at that point. Veritas software RAID-5 is dog-slow (I > think I saw bursts of 8MB/sec sequential writes). Turn on a Veritas > snapshot, and writes to the snapped filesystem go even further into > the toilet. The performance degradation is cumulative with the number > of snapshots. There is no such penalty on the Netapp. Ok, this is apples to apples. > One caveat I should mention, since it bit us in the past: file > locking performance. We have one application that, when running on > the same type of hardware as above (E420R with those drives), spews > forth 150,000 syscalls per second, according to Solaris' "vmstat". > 80% of those calls are fcntl() locks/unlocks to various database files > on disk. Poor programming practice aside, this application runs very > slowly over NFS. It simply cannot match in-kernel file locking when > you're dealing with a local filesystem. Besides that one exceptional > application, we run Netapps for everything else (including Oracle). Ok, given the environment you just described, you could enable a undocumented feature within the solaris mount_nfs command, 'llock'. This tells the NFS client that he shouldn't use NLM to do file locking, I'll just do it locally. This will essentially give you in-kernel locking. The caveat here is that you can't share the filesystem with other clients, but you can't do that with today's direct attach storage either. I usually recommend using the llock option in a Solaris/Oracle/filer environment. Aaron

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RE: Snapshots and Oracle
by Yarmas, Tom 15 Aug '00

15 Aug '00

The control file contains: The database name. The timestamp of database creation. The names of the database's datafiles and online and archived redo log files. The checkpoint, i.e., a record indicating the point in the redo log such that all database changes prior to this point have been saved in the datafiles. Information on backups (when using the Recovery Manager utility). You should certainly backup the control file after any structural change to the database (i.e. addition of data or log files). Additionally, as part of a "normal" backup, I would issue - alter system archivelog current; This would cause a log switch, as well as archive the current redo log and all unarchived redo logs. I would then issue - alter system backup controlfile to 'PATH-TO-FILER' reuse; That way I would have a current copy of the control file included in the snapshot. I might also issue - alter system backup controlfile to trace, as well as copy the parameter file (init.ora and config.ora) to the Filer so I have them as part of the snapshot as well. Finally, I would not exclude any tablespaces from the alter tablespace begin backup. I figure if the snapshot is going to capture the datafiles anyway, I might as well have them in hot backup mode so they are valid for backup. And yes, I would also move the commands that manage the snapshots (except of course the creation of the snapshot) to before the tablespaces are actually put in hot backup mode. No doubt, the Oracle Backup and Recovery Guide is indispensable. You should fully understand what needs to be backed up and you should test your restore procedures. > -----Original Message----- > From: X X [mailto:gynt@post.com] > Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2000 4:57 AM > To: toasters(a)mathworks.com > Subject: Re: Snapshots and Oracle > > > >Treat the control files just as you would any other critical DB > >file. When you shut your DB down and snapshot it, make a backup > >copy of the control files also. Control files only change when > >you do structural changes to your database, and thus must be > >backed up only then. Of course that is best case, just > >incorporate control files into your normal backups. As for redo > >logs they do not nee to be backed up. In fact you really cannot > >use them for anything other than instance recovery when you have > >the database crash. If you do a clean shutdown there is no data > >in these redo's. It gets flushed to disk during the shutdown. > > Shure! but I was talking about hot-backups. From what I under- > stand the control-file also contains info about the logfiles, > so it is important when and how it is copied. > > Should it not be a "ALTER SYSTEM SWITCH LOGFILE;" (that also > updates the control file) and then a "ALTER DATABASE BACKUP > CONTROLFILE TO '/SomeDirectory/SomeFileName.bkp' REUSE;" > before the snapshot is taken?? > > Also to minimize the time that the database is in backup > mode I would move all the "rsh -l root filer4 snap ..." > commands in dohotbackup.sh to a line before the dobegin.sql > script is run. > > /Gynt > > > ______________________________________________ > FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com > Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup >

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Virus Scan
by Shaw, Kevin 15 Aug '00

15 Aug '00

Anyone virus scanning their filers from a unix system? What S/W is being used? Any major problems? Thanks in advance. Kevin

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Quick question
by kelvin tooth 15 Aug '00

15 Aug '00

Someone has just come up to me and asked me: "What is the maximum number of files on a fully populated (disk wise) F760?" I don't (sorry) know the volume configuration specified. have you guys got any ideas? I couldn't find the maximum value of the maxfiles command documented in the now site, or on my piece of paper from NTAP201/2. regards, Kelvin Tooth

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RE: Virus Scanning
by Lyons, Jim 15 Aug '00

15 Aug '00

Am using a pretty crude couple of batch files to do a dir against the volume, pipe that to a file. Then iterate through the file and scan each dir that is not named ~snapshot. Need to use the /NORESULTS switch on the navwnt command so that processing does not stop when a dialog is presented to the screen. We tried NAV corp edition 7.xx, but it lacked the email notification feature (you have to buy a separate product, Symantec System Center, to do this). It also did not do scheduled scans for some reason on our NT server, but would from a workstation. Also hit the known bug that you cannot start a manual scan as long as the service is running. Also note that in NAV5, the exclusions work, but not as I would like (thus the batch file). Even though a directory is excluded, NAV still reads each file in the directory, but does not scan it. In Corp edition 7.xx, the exclusions work properly, but we had so many other issues with it that we went back to NAV5. rgds, Jim -----Original Message----- From: Nail, Larry Sent: Friday, August 04, 2000 5:59 PM To: Lyons, Jim; 'toasters(a)mathworks.com' Subject: RE: Virus Scanning Jim, We're currently using NAV5 to do this however, we're having to move to Corp. Edition 7.02 because of Windoze 2000, so I'm looking for another command line driven virus scanner that I can use. On a side note, what are you using to exclude snapshots. My efforts to put ~snapshot in the exclusions have been futile. Regards, Larry -----Original Message----- From: Lyons, Jim Sent: Friday, August 04, 2000 3:58 PM To: Nail, Larry; 'toasters(a)mathworks.com' Subject: RE: Virus Scanning Larry, we are using NAV50 called from a scheduled nightly batch file in order to skip the snapshot directories. Jim -----Original Message----- From: Nail, Larry Sent: Friday, August 04, 2000 2:53 PM To: 'toasters(a)mathworks.com' Subject: Virus Scanning Just curious if anyone is running a virus scanner against filers for CIFS? ______________________________________ Lawrence D. Nail Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer Senior NT Systems Administrator MSPD NT Systems Engineering Mixed Signal Products http://www1.msp.sc.ti.com/nail/ <http://www1.msp.sc.ti.com/nail/>

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Re: Snapshots and Oracle
by X X 15 Aug '00

15 Aug '00

>Treat the control files just as you would any other critical DB >file. When you shut your DB down and snapshot it, make a backup >copy of the control files also. Control files only change when >you do structural changes to your database, and thus must be >backed up only then. Of course that is best case, just >incorporate control files into your normal backups. As for redo >logs they do not nee to be backed up. In fact you really cannot >use them for anything other than instance recovery when you have >the database crash. If you do a clean shutdown there is no data >in these redo's. It gets flushed to disk during the shutdown. Shure! but I was talking about hot-backups. From what I under- stand the control-file also contains info about the logfiles, so it is important when and how it is copied. Should it not be a "ALTER SYSTEM SWITCH LOGFILE;" (that also updates the control file) and then a "ALTER DATABASE BACKUP CONTROLFILE TO '/SomeDirectory/SomeFileName.bkp' REUSE;" before the snapshot is taken?? Also to minimize the time that the database is in backup mode I would move all the "rsh -l root filer4 snap ..." commands in dohotbackup.sh to a line before the dobegin.sql script is run. /Gynt ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup

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Configuring Netbackup for NDMP 3.2
by Oye Akintan 15 Aug '00

15 Aug '00

We have a F230 running Data Ontap 5.2.3 with a Quantum DLT4700 directly attached to it. I'm running Netbackup for Veritas 3.2 and Netbackup for NDMP 3.2. I've installed jumbo patch 0820413. I'm having problem configuring the storage device. I ran the command set_ndmp_attr -robot . The sys admin guide says to test it using tldtest -r servername:spt0 but when I ran this command, the mode sense failed with the following error: mode_sense failed, CHECK CONDITION sense key = 0x5, asc = 0x24, ascq = 0x0, INVALID FIELD IN CDB Can anyone tell me what I can do to fix it ? -Oye

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Re: Bad NFS performance with Linux.. please help
by Eyal Traitel 14 Aug '00

14 Aug '00

I can suggest you to check: 1. Network cards and switches/routers between the Linuxes and the filers - check for 100mbit full duplex settings - check in the filer and the linux for nfsstat and netstat errors. 2. I don't have experience with NFS on linux, but I know that there were a lot of nfs changes in the last kernels, so even if it worked OK before, maybe you should just consider to upgrade the linuxes - it is never bad in linux anyway... :) You'll probably get faster NFS that way, since nfs was moved to kernel level I think in 2.3 or something... Eyal. --- Henrique Pantarotto <henrique(a)corp.terra.com.br> wrote: > Hello toaster friends! > > This week I experienced a very strange NFS performance in our POP3 > servers. > We've 4 POP3 Linux clients mouting 2 netapp boxes, like this: > > /var/spool/mail1 - F760 (cluster) > /var/spool/mail2 - F760 (cluster) > /var/spool/pop - F720 > > Our Linux clients are Pentium III 650Mhz Dual with 1GB RAM running a > Red > Hat-like distribution with Kernel 2.2.14-19smp. > > This solution has worked very fine until this week, when we started > experiencing high Load Average in our Linux boxes and accumulation of > pop > processes. > > Copies from /var/spool/mail to /var/spool/pop are verrrrrrrrry > slowwwwwwwwww... so pop processes get status of "D" (Disk Waiting > right?, > and caos takes place. > > I don't know what it is. We're crazy here... > > Anyone has ever had hard times like this before with Linux? > > > Thanks a lot for any help!!!!!!! > > PS: We've Brazilian NetApp guys giving us a hand here. > > > Regards, > _______________________________________________ > Henrique Pantarotto > SysOp Site S�o Paulo > Terra Networks Brasil S/A > A Internet mais sua do que nunca > Tel: (11) 5505-5728 r.316/238 ICQ: 6934285 IT: henpa > henrique(a)corp.terra.com.br > ===== Yours, Eyal Traitel eTraitel(a)yahoo.com, Home: 972-3-5290415 (Tel Aviv) *** eTraitel - it's the new eBuzzword ! *** __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail � Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/

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BudTool-4.6.1a problem
by Marion Hakanson 14 Aug '00

14 Aug '00

Folks, We're wanting to upgrade from BudTool-4.6 (with patch 10) to bt-4.6.1a (plus its patch 2.Jumbo), in order to enable a NetApp OS upgrade (OnTAP 5.2.3 -> 5.3.x), per the applicable compatibility matrix, and we have run into a pretty serious issue that perhaps others of you have already dealt with. As background, at our site, our BudTool host is Solaris-2.6/SPARC, which controls a tape library's robotics & uses NDMP to tell our NetApp to back itself up to a SCSI-connected tape drive in that library (other tape drives are SCSI-connected to the BudTool host, and are used to backup other clients by various BudTool methods). While reading through the BudTool-4.6.1a Release Notes, I found: Split Images If a backup request is too large to fit on one tape, BudTool can split the backup image across a maximum of three tapes. BudTool does not support backup requests that require four or more tapes. Now if you're like me, you have a NetApp filesystem which is big enough to be split across 4 or 5 DLT7k tapes. In fact, we've been backing up such a filesystem for a couple years now, and have even done a number of single-file or single-directory restores from such backups, without any problems. We also use "btcp" to make offsite copies of these backups onto a DLT4k stacker, which of course splits such a backup image across even more tapes (up to 5 or 6). Naturally, after a lot of slow, deep breaths, I immediately did a little test, and was able to successfully restore a single file from a recent full backup which is split across five tapes. As is typical of dump/restore, it had to load and read all five tapes before the restore was complete. Although the file was a pretty recent one, and has a "high" inode number, I can't be sure which of the tapes contained the file I restored. Anyway, when I called PDC (yeah, Legato has farmed out all our BudTool support calls to PDC), they checked with Legato, who told them that yes, this is a known problem, and it has "always been that way", it's not something new introduced between bt-4.6 and bt-4.6.1a (and its subsequent jumbo patch). Specifically, I was told that if I tried to restore something that resided on that 4th (or 5th) tape, the restore would fail. The PDC support person also told me that Legato would not be issuing any more patches to BudTool, so this problem will apparently not be fixed. Ain't it great what $30k worth of software purchase and $6k/year of software maintenance (over the course of 2-3 years) can buy you? And any guesses as to who we're _not_ going to use to replace our BudTool installation & maintenance? At this point, I'm not sure what to say, other than to ask if anyone else out there has used bt-4.6 or bt-4.6.1a to backup and restore a filesystem that spans more than three or four, or more tapes, and of course to please let me know your results. I'd particularly like to know how and/or under what circumstances this split-image limit comes into play. Well, I'm off to break up that backup request into smaller ones. It's a lucky thing that 200GB filesystem is mostly divided into qtrees for each of our research centers. Regards, -- Marion Hakanson <hakanson(a)cse.ogi.edu> CSE Computing Facilities

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Re: Configuring Netbackup for NDMP 3.2
by Steve Kappel 14 Aug '00

14 Aug '00

Oye Akintan wrote: >We have a F230 running Data Ontap 5.2.3 with a Quantum DLT4700 directly >attached to it. I'm running Netbackup for Veritas 3.2 and Netbackup for >NDMP 3.2. I've installed jumbo patch 0820413. I'm having problem >configuring the storage device. I ran the command set_ndmp_attr -robot . >The sys admin guide says to test it using tldtest -r servername:spt0 but >when I ran this command, the mode sense failed with the following error: > >mode_sense failed, CHECK CONDITION >sense key = 0x5, asc = 0x24, ascq = 0x0, INVALID FIELD IN CDB > Can anyone tell me what I can do to fix it ? Is this a standalone drive? If so, then there is no robot to configure. tldtest -r tests the robot. If it is in a library then the SCSI controller, id, or lun that you provided to set_ndmp_attr -robot are probably not the correct ones for your configuration. __________________________________________________________________________ Steve Kappel steve.kappel(a)veritas.com VERITAS Software steve.kappel(a)iname.com (Personal)

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RE: move command on filer?
by Davis, John 14 Aug '00

14 Aug '00

I have..it reqires a MS JVM be installed on the NT box in question and a proper JDK..need a twist of Java expertise but if I can do it most of this audience sure can..I have the class libraries should anyone want them..I used Borlands JavaBuilder to knit them together.. -----Original Message----- From: Agnew, Blaine [mailto:Blaine.Agnew@netapp.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2000 5:59 PM To: ''Nick.Mayrath(a)envoy.com' '; 'toasters(a)mathworks.com ' Subject: RE: move command on filer? NDMPCopy can be handy for this sort of application, however I don't know if someone has ported it to NT yet. It is a freeware utility that runs on the host and controls the filer via NDMP commands. It is similar to having a dump piped through to a restore, except that the data does not have to go through your host. You can get the source from www.ndmp.org if you want to get more information. -----Original Message----- From: Muhlestein, Mark To: 'Nick.Mayrath(a)envoy.com'; toasters(a)mathworks.com Sent: 8/8/00 4:23 PM Subject: RE: move command on filer? If the files are in the same qtree the moves will be fast because this is just a rename; there is no need to copy the data. If not, you will have to copy the files. There is currently no way to do that locally on the filer. Mark -----Original Message----- From: Nick.Mayrath(a)envoy.com [mailto:Nick.Mayrath@envoy.com] Sent: Friday, August 04, 2000 4:07 PM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: move command on filer? This weekend I need to move alot of files around of my F720. Is there any "move" command locally on the filer that I can use instead of using my NT machine? My concern is that using the NT machine will cause the moves to take longer since they have to "pass through" my NT box. Thanks

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RE: Snapshots and Oracle
by Browning, Jeff 14 Aug '00

14 Aug '00

All: The TR refers to the major Oracle backup and recovery guide and assumes that the reader has access to that material. As such, there is no attempt to elaborate on items which are thoroughly covered in that medium. Backing up an Oracle database which is stored on a filer using hot backups is very comparable to doing so with conventional local disk - other than the fact that the period during which the affected tablspaces are in hot backup mode is dramatically shorter on a filer, due to the functionality of snapshots. Issues such as backing up the control file, switching log files, etc., are identical to local disk. Jeff -----Original Message----- From: Clarke, Bruce Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 7:20 PM To: Browning, Jeff Subject: FW: Snapshots and Oracle As you are the author of the mentioned paper, would you care to respond? Bruce -----Original Message----- From: X X [mailto:gynt@post.com] Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 2:37 AM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: RE: Snapshots and Oracle >1. Does a hot backup (as described on >http://www.netapp.com/tech_library/3049.html) present any >restoration problems? Has anyone done a restore from a hot >backup? How about handling of the control files? In other hot-backup schemes I have seen, there are a lot of stuff on how and when to do the "ALTER DATABASE BACKUP CONTROLFILE ... ..." command. Also also some stuff on "ALTER SYSTEM SWITCH LOGFILE" or "ARCHIVE LOG NEXT" None of these are mentioned in the above TechLibrary article. /Gynt ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup

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Quota command for users
by Dawn Hamel 14 Aug '00

14 Aug '00

Hi All, Anyone out there have code to allow users to check their own quotas which can not only run on HP-UX 10.20 and 11.0, but also under NT4? I have code from Guy Harris that compiled under Solaris ... but I need portable code Just thought I would check to make sure I am not re-inventing the wheel Thanks, Dawn Systems Programmer SAS Institute, Inc

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Re: Bad NFS performance with Linux.. please help
by Darrell Fuhriman 13 Aug '00

13 Aug '00

chris_good(a)webtop.com (Chris Good) writes: > Unless someone fixes the problem pretty soon our strategy is > going to move away from filers everywhere to just a couple of filers at > the centre of the network. Anyone else think it would be worth netapp Heh, that smacks of shooting the messenger. It silly to blame the server, when it's clearly the client's fault. Darrell

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RE: Filer storage for databases, seriously? (Was: Re: NetApp ques tions)
by Pesce, Nicholas (FUSA) 12 Aug '00

12 Aug '00

I'm sorry Keith. But I've heard this argument before. NFS versus Direct attatch storage? I'm going to have to vote for a good direct attach solution. Why? NFS and CIFS have huge overhead. Also, I took a look at the link you provided. The information was incomplete at best snip: .The following results were obtained with Bluecurve's Dynameasure SQL Professional product. We were running MS SQL Server 6.5 on a Dell 4200 with two 200 Mhz Pentium Pro CPUs and 512 Mb of RAM. The local disk was on a Dell PowerEdge RAID adapter with 6 9Gb UltraSCSI disks. The filer was an F630 with 512 Mb of RAM, and 14 9Gb UltraSCSI disks. The Dell was running RAID 0. The Filer, needless to say, was running RAID 4. snip What were the speeds of the drives? The CPU information here is important but not compared to drive information. Also I'd like to point out that writing to 3 disks (you are using raid 0 so the 6 disks are now effectively 3) spindles is most likely going to be slower than writing to 14 spindles. Following the logic of this link. (ignoring obvious disk information questions) Netapp would like me to believe that a machine running a non-parity raid platform (mirroring) and having a low protocol overhead (scsi) is slower that a Network appliance running a parity system (raid 4) and running NFS or CIFS (I'm assuming it was CIFS because it was a MS sequel server, but I could be incorrect). I think I would like to see a test where the Disk sizes and number were similar, I sincerely doubt the Netapp would do as well. I believe that Network Appliances are solid machines that perform their functions effectively, but they are NOT a replacement for direct attach where speed is essential. -----Original Message----- From: rdobbins(a)netmore.net [mailto:rdobbins@netmore.net] Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2000 8:47 PM To: keith(a)netapp.com Cc: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: RE: Filer storage for databases, seriously? (Was: Re: NetApp ques tions) No one thoughout recorded history, apart from assorted nuts, has ever believed that the Earth was flat; Eratosthenes calculated both its circumference to within 1% of the true value as well its tilt relative to the plane of the ecliptic no later than 200 B.C. The only real problem was that of terra incognita - i.e., nobody knew exactly where the landmasses were located until a) someone sailed there, and b) accurate chronometers were developed by John Harrison in the 18th Century, enabling navigators to calculate longitude with a high degree of accuracy, and then relay that information to cartographers. Advances in spherical geometry a la Mercator assisted the latter group, of course. Historical canards aside, let me restate that I'm very interested in hearing about production experience with NetApp filers and Oracle over NFS. I've a 740 with a Gigabit Ethernet interface, plugged into a Catalyst 5509 doing MPLS, and so would be willing to entertain the notion if someone can give me anything beyond benchmarks. I know all about snapshots and all that, by the bye. It's -performance- which is the question. Thanks for the pointer to the link, I'll be sure and check it out. ----------------------------------------------------------- Roland Dobbins <rdobbins(a)netmore.net> // 818.535.5024 voice -----Original Message----- From: Keith Brown [mailto:keith@netapp.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2000 5:48 PM To: rdobbins(a)netmore.net; Perry.Jiang(a)bmo.com Cc: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: Filer storage for databases, seriously? (Was: Re: NetApp questions) > As to running Oracle with the data and logfiles on a filer via NFS, > I should think that even with a NetApp using Gigabit Ethernet, > you'd take a -huge- performance hit as compared to a local > disk array. Beware conventional wisdom Roland. People used to think the Earth was flat too. :-) While I wouldn't be so bold as to *guarantee* performance boosts in utilizing the filer storage approach for every database application under the Sun, the simple fact is that filers contain a myriad of features that are very attractive to the database market, and NetApp now draws a significant and growing portion of its revenues from this space. Snapshots & SnapRestore greatly simplify and enhance database backup and restore environs. The WAFL RAID design puts failure resiliancy into the disk subsystem without forcing you take the performance hits inherent in general purpose RAID-5 designs or going to disk-doubling RAID-1 approaches. SnapMirror gives you database replication to offsite locations for disaster recovery purposes. WAFL's ready expandibility lets you make room for growing databases without disrupting their operation. The list goes on... Oh.. and yes... performance very often gets a shot in the arm too! > I've no empirical data > to back this up, mind you; Don't worry. Nobody ever does, not even our direct-attach competitors, not that they can be too harshly criticized. Meaningful performance comparisons are tricky to architect, usually have a short shelf life, and customers have an understandable tendency not to believe vendor funded benchmarks anyway (due to the fact that the vendor performing and/or funding the benchmark almost always wins!). Nevertheless, we did publish a relatively innocuous one some time ago, which can be viewed here: http://www.netapp.com/tech_library/3044.html > it's just that there's so much overhead > associated with NFS even on an optimized platform > like the NetApp filer, I can't see it as being a win. There are certainly some "swings-and-roundabouts"-type things to consider when looking at the two approaches, and some people do conclude that there is more overhead in the network attach approach, dismissing it offhand. However, as far as performance goes, all the theory in the world is no substitute for the practical experience that could be gained by trying a solution for the application you have and actually bearing witness to how well it works and what it performs like. > If there's anyone out there with Oracle experience on filers > via NFS, either pro or con, I'd love to hear from you. I'm hoping there will be some on this list. As I mentioned, beware conventional wisdom. America might have been discovered hundreds of years before Columbus sailed over the horizon, if only all his ancestors hadn't been terrified of falling off the edge of the world! Keith

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Re: Bad NFS performance with Linux.. please help
by Mohan Srinivasan 12 Aug '00

12 Aug '00

--- Chris Good <chris_good(a)webtop.com> wrote: > Unless someone fixes the problem pretty soon our strategy is > going to move away from filers everywhere to just a couple of filers at > the centre of the network. Anyone else think it would be worth netapp > sponsoring someone to fix up the linux nfs client to perform well under > load? I'm guessing that the cost-benefit to netapp would be pretty > convinving. Did you pick up NFSv3 client support and the latest NFS performance/stability patches from nfs.sourceforge.net ? Client performance (and stability) improved considerably after I picked up these patches (I use NFSv3/UDP with 32KB xfer sizes). __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail � Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/

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AW: user quota crashes filer
by Waschkewitz, Dirk 12 Aug '00

12 Aug '00

Hi, we had the same problem, we had to run WAFL_check from the bootdisks to fix the inconsistency: Boot from floppy, at the Prompt (1-5) enter WAFL_check (casesensitiv!) the filer will then prompt you which volume to check. PS: Our Netapp case for this was [NetApp Log#133892]. Dirk Waschkewitz Tel.: 08457 - 8 - 1314 Fax : 08457 - 8 - 2499 E-Mail: Dirk.Waschkewitz(a)bayernoil.de BAYERNOIL Raffinerigesellschaft mbH Postfach 10 08 58 D-85008 Ingolstadt -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: Jiang, Perry [mailto:Perry.Jiang@BMO.com] Gesendet: Freitag, 11. August 2000 20:48 An: 'Heller, Jeffrey' Cc: toasters Betreff: RE: user quota crashes filer Hi, Jeff I upgraded to 5.3.6R2. It didn't fix the problem. The filter still keep on panic on quota. What does the error message: "WAFL inconsistent" mean? Thanks. Perry Jiang -----Original Message----- From: Heller, Jeffrey [mailto:Jeffrey.Heller@netapp.com] Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 10:10 AM To: Fairchild, Peter; Heller, Jeffrey; Krishnan, Prabhakar; Jiang, Perry Cc: toasters Subject: RE: user quota crashes filer Floppy booting 5.3.6R2 and then downloading that release should solve the problem. Call customer service if you are having problems with the procedure. Once 5.3.6R2 is loaded you should have no problem turning quotas back on. Jeff > -----Original Message----- > From: Fairchild, Peter [mailto:Peter.Fairchild@netapp.com] > Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 6:42 AM > To: Heller, Jeffrey; Krishnan, Prabhakar; Jiang, Perry > Cc: toasters > Subject: RE: user quota crashes filer > > > That doesn't fully answer the question. > How does one deal with this problem *before* patching 5.3.6R2? > Does one have to nuke the filer to get quota functional again? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Heller, Jeffrey [mailto:Jeffrey.Heller@netapp.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2000 6:14 PM > To: Krishnan, Prabhakar; Jiang, Perry > Cc: toasters > Subject: RE: user quota crashes filer > > > This problem is fixed in 5.3.6R2 which is on NOW as of today. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Prabhakar Krishnan [mailto:kpkar@netapp.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2000 1:54 PM > To: Jiang, Perry > Cc: toasters > Subject: Re: user quota crashes filer > > > > this was a bug. > > - patch is availabe , contact the SE/CS > - fixed in the next release > > "Jiang, Perry" wrote: > > > Hi, > > I have a 740 filer with Data OnTAP 5.3.6 > > I put a quota entry for username "perry" into /vol/vol0/etc/quotas > > perry user 50M - > > > > But there is no entry for "perry" in /vol/vol0/etc/passwd, > so there is no > > UID for perry(No NIS running, of course). > > When I run "quota on vol0", the filer crashes. > > > > I have to boot up the filer from floppy disk, remove the > entry of "perry" in > > /vol/vol0/etc/quotas file, then reboot the filer. > > > > After the filter is up, everything is ok. However, I can't > enable quota > > anymore. Every time > > I run "quota on vol0", the filer would crash. > > > > The only thing I have in /vol/vol0/etc/quotas now is couple > of entries for > > Qtree quota. > > > > Can anybody explain when the filer still crashes after I > remove the "perry" > > entry? > > How can I make the quota work again? > > Do I have to rebuild the filer? > > > > Thanks > > > > Perry Jiang >

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Bad NFS performance with Linux.. please help
by Henrique Pantarotto 11 Aug '00

11 Aug '00

Hello toaster friends! This week I experienced a very strange NFS performance in our POP3 servers. We've 4 POP3 Linux clients mouting 2 netapp boxes, like this: /var/spool/mail1 - F760 (cluster) /var/spool/mail2 - F760 (cluster) /var/spool/pop - F720 Our Linux clients are Pentium III 650Mhz Dual with 1GB RAM running a Red Hat-like distribution with Kernel 2.2.14-19smp. This solution has worked very fine until this week, when we started experiencing high Load Average in our Linux boxes and accumulation of pop processes. Copies from /var/spool/mail to /var/spool/pop are verrrrrrrrry slowwwwwwwwww... so pop processes get status of "D" (Disk Waiting right?, and caos takes place. I don't know what it is. We're crazy here... Anyone has ever had hard times like this before with Linux? Thanks a lot for any help!!!!!!! PS: We've Brazilian NetApp guys giving us a hand here. Regards, _______________________________________________ Henrique Pantarotto SysOp Site São Paulo Terra Networks Brasil S/A A Internet mais sua do que nunca Tel: (11) 5505-5728 r.316/238 ICQ: 6934285 IT: henpa henrique(a)corp.terra.com.br

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Bad NFS performance with Linux.. please help
by Henrique Pantarotto 11 Aug '00

11 Aug '00

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RE: user quota crashes filer
by Jiang, Perry 11 Aug '00

11 Aug '00

Hi, Jeff I upgraded to 5.3.6R2. It didn't fix the problem. The filter still keep on panic on quota. What does the error message: "WAFL inconsistent" mean? Thanks. Perry Jiang -----Original Message----- From: Heller, Jeffrey [mailto:Jeffrey.Heller@netapp.com] Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 10:10 AM To: Fairchild, Peter; Heller, Jeffrey; Krishnan, Prabhakar; Jiang, Perry Cc: toasters Subject: RE: user quota crashes filer Floppy booting 5.3.6R2 and then downloading that release should solve the problem. Call customer service if you are having problems with the procedure. Once 5.3.6R2 is loaded you should have no problem turning quotas back on. Jeff > -----Original Message----- > From: Fairchild, Peter [mailto:Peter.Fairchild@netapp.com] > Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 6:42 AM > To: Heller, Jeffrey; Krishnan, Prabhakar; Jiang, Perry > Cc: toasters > Subject: RE: user quota crashes filer > > > That doesn't fully answer the question. > How does one deal with this problem *before* patching 5.3.6R2? > Does one have to nuke the filer to get quota functional again? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Heller, Jeffrey [mailto:Jeffrey.Heller@netapp.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2000 6:14 PM > To: Krishnan, Prabhakar; Jiang, Perry > Cc: toasters > Subject: RE: user quota crashes filer > > > This problem is fixed in 5.3.6R2 which is on NOW as of today. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Prabhakar Krishnan [mailto:kpkar@netapp.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2000 1:54 PM > To: Jiang, Perry > Cc: toasters > Subject: Re: user quota crashes filer > > > > this was a bug. > > - patch is availabe , contact the SE/CS > - fixed in the next release > > "Jiang, Perry" wrote: > > > Hi, > > I have a 740 filer with Data OnTAP 5.3.6 > > I put a quota entry for username "perry" into /vol/vol0/etc/quotas > > perry user 50M - > > > > But there is no entry for "perry" in /vol/vol0/etc/passwd, > so there is no > > UID for perry(No NIS running, of course). > > When I run "quota on vol0", the filer crashes. > > > > I have to boot up the filer from floppy disk, remove the > entry of "perry" in > > /vol/vol0/etc/quotas file, then reboot the filer. > > > > After the filter is up, everything is ok. However, I can't > enable quota > > anymore. Every time > > I run "quota on vol0", the filer would crash. > > > > The only thing I have in /vol/vol0/etc/quotas now is couple > of entries for > > Qtree quota. > > > > Can anybody explain when the filer still crashes after I > remove the "perry" > > entry? > > How can I make the quota work again? > > Do I have to rebuild the filer? > > > > Thanks > > > > Perry Jiang >

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AIT-2 support in 5.3.6R2?
by Michael Galloway 11 Aug '00

11 Aug '00

does OT5.3.6R2 have support for AIT-2 devices? thanks! -- michael

2 2

RE: SQL 7.0 and Oplocks
by Muhlestein, Mark 11 Aug '00

11 Aug '00

The reason the language is vague is that there is no hard and fast rule. It's a tradeoff you can make between performance and risk of data loss. When oplocks are enabled it allows the CIFS client (in this case the SQL server) to aggressively cache data. That can result in a nice performance gain, and everything is great as long as you don't have network problems, and the servers never crash. If that does happen, you are more likely to have data loss with oplocks enabled. On the other hand, many applications do write-throughs and/or flushes to avoid that problem. I haven't heard of anyone losing data on MS SQL because of having oplocks enabled, but if you're worried I'd suggest turning off oplocks on the qtree that has your database files. If the performance suffers too much, you can consider turning them back on if you are in a stable environment. Mark -----Original Message----- From: Mike Hopkins [mailto:Mike@broaddaylight.com] Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2000 10:17 AM To: 'toasters(a)mathworks.com' Subject: SQL 7.0 and Oplocks There are articles on Microsoft's website as well as the NOW site that indicate the possibility of oplocks causing data loss when using a filer to host a SQL 7 datbase device. http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/Q224/9/92.ASP <http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/Q224/9/92.ASP> http://now.netapp.com/NOW/knowledge/docs/ontap/rel535/html/sag/cifs25.htm <http://now.netapp.com/NOW/knowledge/docs/ontap/rel535/html/sag/cifs25.htm> We are running SQL 7.0 on a Win2K server with a gigabit connection to the filer. The database is a repository for a custom web application that we sell, so the database is getting a lot of transactions from the web server. The language in both articles is vague and inconclusive, so I am looking for those of you who have experience running SQL 7.0 with a network connection to it devices. I am not a dba, just the guy who looks after the filer among other things. Oplocks are currently enabled, should I leave them this way? Michael Hopkins mike(a)BroadDaylight.com Systems Administrator phone 408.450.7450 Broad Daylight, Inc. fax 408.327.0177

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RE: user quota crashes filer
by Coartney, Paul 11 Aug '00

11 Aug '00

sysconfig -v It is at the top -----Original Message----- From: Jiang, Perry [mailto:Perry.Jiang@bmo.com] Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 7:36 AM To: 'Heller, Jeffrey'; Fairchild, Peter; Krishnan, Prabhakar Cc: toasters Subject: RE: user quota crashes filer Hi, What command can I use to check my filter's firmware version? After install the system files to upgrade, it won't erase my data on the filer, right? Thanks Perry Jiang -----Original Message----- From: Heller, Jeffrey [mailto:Jeffrey.Heller@netapp.com] Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 10:10 AM To: Fairchild, Peter; Heller, Jeffrey; Krishnan, Prabhakar; Jiang, Perry Cc: toasters Subject: RE: user quota crashes filer Floppy booting 5.3.6R2 and then downloading that release should solve the problem. Call customer service if you are having problems with the procedure. Once 5.3.6R2 is loaded you should have no problem turning quotas back on. Jeff > -----Original Message----- > From: Fairchild, Peter [mailto:Peter.Fairchild@netapp.com] > Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 6:42 AM > To: Heller, Jeffrey; Krishnan, Prabhakar; Jiang, Perry > Cc: toasters > Subject: RE: user quota crashes filer > > > That doesn't fully answer the question. > How does one deal with this problem *before* patching 5.3.6R2? > Does one have to nuke the filer to get quota functional again? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Heller, Jeffrey [mailto:Jeffrey.Heller@netapp.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2000 6:14 PM > To: Krishnan, Prabhakar; Jiang, Perry > Cc: toasters > Subject: RE: user quota crashes filer > > > This problem is fixed in 5.3.6R2 which is on NOW as of today. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Prabhakar Krishnan [mailto:kpkar@netapp.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2000 1:54 PM > To: Jiang, Perry > Cc: toasters > Subject: Re: user quota crashes filer > > > > this was a bug. > > - patch is availabe , contact the SE/CS > - fixed in the next release > > "Jiang, Perry" wrote: > > > Hi, > > I have a 740 filer with Data OnTAP 5.3.6 > > I put a quota entry for username "perry" into /vol/vol0/etc/quotas > > perry user 50M - > > > > But there is no entry for "perry" in /vol/vol0/etc/passwd, > so there is no > > UID for perry(No NIS running, of course). > > When I run "quota on vol0", the filer crashes. > > > > I have to boot up the filer from floppy disk, remove the > entry of "perry" in > > /vol/vol0/etc/quotas file, then reboot the filer. > > > > After the filter is up, everything is ok. However, I can't > enable quota > > anymore. Every time > > I run "quota on vol0", the filer would crash. > > > > The only thing I have in /vol/vol0/etc/quotas now is couple > of entries for > > Qtree quota. > > > > Can anybody explain when the filer still crashes after I > remove the "perry" > > entry? > > How can I make the quota work again? > > Do I have to rebuild the filer? > > > > Thanks > > > > Perry Jiang >

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RE: user quota crashes filer
by Jiang, Perry 11 Aug '00

11 Aug '00

Hi, What command can I use to check my filter's firmware version? After install the system files to upgrade, it won't erase my data on the filer, right? Thanks Perry Jiang -----Original Message----- From: Heller, Jeffrey [mailto:Jeffrey.Heller@netapp.com] Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 10:10 AM To: Fairchild, Peter; Heller, Jeffrey; Krishnan, Prabhakar; Jiang, Perry Cc: toasters Subject: RE: user quota crashes filer Floppy booting 5.3.6R2 and then downloading that release should solve the problem. Call customer service if you are having problems with the procedure. Once 5.3.6R2 is loaded you should have no problem turning quotas back on. Jeff > -----Original Message----- > From: Fairchild, Peter [mailto:Peter.Fairchild@netapp.com] > Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 6:42 AM > To: Heller, Jeffrey; Krishnan, Prabhakar; Jiang, Perry > Cc: toasters > Subject: RE: user quota crashes filer > > > That doesn't fully answer the question. > How does one deal with this problem *before* patching 5.3.6R2? > Does one have to nuke the filer to get quota functional again? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Heller, Jeffrey [mailto:Jeffrey.Heller@netapp.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2000 6:14 PM > To: Krishnan, Prabhakar; Jiang, Perry > Cc: toasters > Subject: RE: user quota crashes filer > > > This problem is fixed in 5.3.6R2 which is on NOW as of today. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Prabhakar Krishnan [mailto:kpkar@netapp.com] > Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2000 1:54 PM > To: Jiang, Perry > Cc: toasters > Subject: Re: user quota crashes filer > > > > this was a bug. > > - patch is availabe , contact the SE/CS > - fixed in the next release > > "Jiang, Perry" wrote: > > > Hi, > > I have a 740 filer with Data OnTAP 5.3.6 > > I put a quota entry for username "perry" into /vol/vol0/etc/quotas > > perry user 50M - > > > > But there is no entry for "perry" in /vol/vol0/etc/passwd, > so there is no > > UID for perry(No NIS running, of course). > > When I run "quota on vol0", the filer crashes. > > > > I have to boot up the filer from floppy disk, remove the > entry of "perry" in > > /vol/vol0/etc/quotas file, then reboot the filer. > > > > After the filter is up, everything is ok. However, I can't > enable quota > > anymore. Every time > > I run "quota on vol0", the filer would crash. > > > > The only thing I have in /vol/vol0/etc/quotas now is couple > of entries for > > Qtree quota. > > > > Can anybody explain when the filer still crashes after I > remove the "perry" > > entry? > > How can I make the quota work again? > > Do I have to rebuild the filer? > > > > Thanks > > > > Perry Jiang >

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Re: RE: Snapshots and Oracle
by Brian Hostetter 11 Aug '00

11 Aug '00

Treat the control files just as you would any other critical DB file. When you shut your DB down and snapshot it, make a backup copy of the control files also. Control files only change when you do structural changes to your database, and thus must be backed up only then. Of course that is best case, just incorporate control files into your normal backups. As for redo logs they do not nee to be backed up. In fact you really cannot use them for anything other than instance recovery when you have the database crash. If you do a clean shutdown there is no data in these redo's. It gets flushed to disk during the shutdown. I would also recommend not putting redo's on your netapp, it is just an incredible waste of I/O. Buy some cheap 4G drives and install them. If you multiplex your redo's you should not have to worry about disk failures. --Brian >>> X X <gynt(a)post.com> 08/11 3:42 AM >>> >1. Does a hot backup (as described on >http://www.netapp.com/tech_library/3049.html) present any >restoration problems? Has anyone done a restore from a hot >backup? How about handling of the control files? In other hot-backup schemes I have seen, there are a lot of stuff on how and when to do the "ALTER DATABASE BACKUP CONTROLFILE ... ..." command. Also also some stuff on "ALTER SYSTEM SWITCH LOGFILE" or "ARCHIVE LOG NEXT" None of these are mentioned in the above TechLibrary article. /Gynt ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup

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