toasters

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13515 discussions

File too large ?
by Hubbard, Dan 28 Mar '01

28 Mar '01

All; We are using a ONTAP v 6.0.1 and are NFS mounting Solaris and Redhat Linux boxes. We are in the process of creating some large text files and cannot either gunzip and/or create files greater than 2GB's. We have bumped up our maxfiles and set the options nfs.v2.df_2gb_lim ON without any luck. Our friends in tech support at Netapp told me that I must upgrade to 6.0.1r3 to fix this. Any input from the field ? Also, any input on issues with NFS and Redhat Linux kernel 2.2.14 (RH7.0) ? Thanks

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ndmp backup
by neil lehrer 27 Mar '01

27 Mar '01

hi, i am testing ndmp backup solutions on my f760[part of a cluster] running 5.36r2, against a spectralogic treefrog. questions: 1. once backup started sysstat 1 showed cpu util at about 40% during mapping and initially 100% during dump for about 2-3 minutes and then much lower numbers since then. is the 100% util normal? nothing else is running, system is not prod yet. 2. can ait2 tapes be "bad" fresh out of the wrapper? the software would not handle 1 of the tapes, backup vendor said tape was probably bad. what is the ndmp response to a "bad" tape? 3. is the chip in the ait tapes used by ndmp backup? thanks

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RE: NAS Wars
by Joe Luchtenberg 27 Mar '01

27 Mar '01

Mr. Benway goes into some detail regarding disk IO based on rotation speeds and access times: "...The component numbers work out to be 3ms average rotational delay (10,000 rpm), random mode access times of 5.2ms (read mode) or 6ms (write mode, more precise alignment required), and a minimum track-to-track seek time of .6ms (reads) or .9ms (writes). On a filer, where reads usually far outnumber the writes, use 5.2ms for the random mode calculation, and .6ms for the sequential. This will get you close enough. Hence, for random reads, the aggregate read access time is 8.2ms, yielding 122 IOPS (1,000ms / 8.2ms). For sequential mode, the aggregate read access time will be 3.6ms, yielding 278 IOPS (1,000ms / 3.9ms)." Earlier in the article he used these disk figures (122 and 278 IOPS) to ascertain potential total system disk IOPS for the configurations posted at the SPEC website by NetApp. System 1 (his nomenclature) had 16 data disks, and therefore 16x122 = 1952 IOPS for random reads or 16x278 = 4448 IOPS for sequential. System 4 had 34 data disks for 4148 and 9452 IOPS. Somehow, Mr. Benway makes the leap to use these data points as a basis for comparison between EMC and NetApp. Since the IP4700 configurations posted on the SPEC website by EMC have many more disks (90) than either NetApp config, he suggests the paucity of RAM available to the EMC IP4700 (1.5GB) accounts for the difference: "...So why does System 5 (the EMC IP4700) falter in comparison to {NetApp}? ...EMC has only half of the useable RAM as available to the F840. Hence, there isn't enough RAM (work space) on the EMC to take advantage of its expected higher disk throughput." The EMC cluster has 500% of the disk IOPS potential (90/18 = 5) but only 30% higher throughput (11,451/8820 = 1.3*; OPS/sec statistics from his Figure 1 excerpt of SPECsfs97 results) than a single filer, and he explains this away with memory? Should one assume that if the EMC IP 4700 had the same memory as the F840 (3GB) that it would serve data 500% faster than the NetApp?! *Note: Used Systems 1 and 5 for comparison to have a common protocol for the benchmark (UDP-3). Only after making this dubious claim that hardware primarily accounts for the performance differences does he suggest that software may have something to do with the performance disparity (in very vague terms): "...You would also have to know more about the EMC operating system and file system efficiency versus that of the NetApp in order to come to any further conclusions." BINGO! There's your answer, Mr. Benway. NetApp is a software company, not a hardware company. You referred to NetApp's whitepaper TR3002 in your article, but I think you would have done well to check TR3001 first (www.netapp.com/tech_library/3001.html). Particularly the sections on RAID and system performance/disk bottlenecks: "...the FFS (the Berkeley Fast File System) was designed to optimize writes for one file at a time. As a result, it typically writes blocks for different files to widely separated locations on disk... Since the Berkeley FFS doesn't understand the underlying RAID 4 layout, it tends to generate requests that are scattered over the data disks, causing the parity disk to seek excessively. WAFL writes blocks in a pattern designed to minimize seeks on the parity disk." This excerpt from TR3001 only addresses how file data is laid out on disks. It does not even touch on other disk seek activity required by other file systems. Most of us have probably seen the PowerPoint slide that depicts the drastic reduction of disk seeks required to retrieve or write data because of the way WAFL manages disk space when compared to other file systems, including the CrosStor file system implemented by EMC in their IP4700 ( ? please correct me if I'm wrong there). NetApp filer performance is driven by the software, and the hardware is designed to deliver that performance through best value off-the-shelf configurations (as Mr. Benway noted, it is not critical to have the fasted CPU available in the market today to deliver this performance). I readily admit that I am strongly biased toward NetApp, and I hope this doesn't seem to be EMC-bashing. If I have something wrong here, I would like to know. My customers count on me to stay ontop of the storage market to make appropriate recommendations to address their requirements. Right now with regard to performance NetApp has a unique advantage with Data ONTAP and WAFL, as I see it. Of course, performance is just one issue, and many times a minor one in determining what is the best storage solution for a given requirement. Just my $.02. Thanks for providing a forum for me to ramble. :-) Joe Joe Luchtenberg Dataline, Inc. 757.858.0600 757.285.1223 (cell) 757.858.0606 (fax) joe.luchtenberg(a)data-line.com www.data-line.com -----Original Message----- From: Todd C. Merrill [mailto:tmerrill@mathworks.com] Sent: Friday, March 23, 2001 6:01 PM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com; emcnas(a)mathworks.com Subject: NAS Wars A recent article in Server/Workstation Expert, entitled "NAS Wars," might be of interest here: http://swexpert.com/CB/SE.C11.MAR.01.pdf I applaud Alan's efforts at applying a bit of math and a lot of common sense to such a sticky issue. This isn't meant to start a flame war, though something I read as a kid on a package of firecrackers comes to mind: "Light fuse, and run away fast!" ;) Personally, I would suggest reading the first three sentences of the conclusion first, and with that perspective, read the rest of the article. Read that way, the methods and assumptions and calculations and configurations make for good detective work, IMHO. Until next time... The Mathworks, Inc. 508-647-7000 x7792 3 Apple Hill Drive, Natick, MA 01760-2098 508-647-7001 FAX tmerrill(a)mathworks.com http://www.mathworks.com ---

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RE: NAS Wars
by Tom "Mad Dog" Yergeau 26 Mar '01

26 Mar '01

Don't you know if you're using an EMC box, you're only supposed to run home directories on a NAS box? I mean, if you want to run Oracle or Exchange, obviously you need a Symmetrix. Or at the bare minimum, the SAN half of the IP4700. Remember, EMC folks think everyone who runs a database on NAS is insane. But it would be interesting to see the results nevertheless. MD -----Original Message----- From: grey jolly [mailto:greyjolly@yahoo.com] Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2001 8:01 PM To: Bruce Sterling Woodcock; sg; Chris Thompson Cc: emcnas(a)mathworks.com; toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: Re: NAS Wars I think the article brings out a good point. Why can't we get a simple one to one test of the two boxes withthe same amount of useable storage, and as similar a configuration overall as possible? That way we can really see the price and performance of each. Up to now all we have is hearsay and Marketing BS. I don't think we're comparing apples to apples yet. For example, I suggest we test five real world applications. 1) Test both in a home directory configuration 2) Test both running a common Oracle application 3) Test both running a Lotus Notes application 4) Test both running exchange 5) Test both simulating recovery form an Oracle outage and an Exchange outage and how long it takes to recover. Let the best box win : ).

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NAS Wars
by Todd C. Merrill 26 Mar '01

26 Mar '01

A recent article in Server/Workstation Expert, entitled "NAS Wars," might be of interest here: http://swexpert.com/CB/SE.C11.MAR.01.pdf I applaud Alan's efforts at applying a bit of math and a lot of common sense to such a sticky issue. This isn't meant to start a flame war, though something I read as a kid on a package of firecrackers comes to mind: "Light fuse, and run away fast!" ;) Personally, I would suggest reading the first three sentences of the conclusion first, and with that perspective, read the rest of the article. Read that way, the methods and assumptions and calculations and configurations make for good detective work, IMHO. Until next time... The Mathworks, Inc. 508-647-7000 x7792 3 Apple Hill Drive, Natick, MA 01760-2098 508-647-7001 FAX tmerrill(a)mathworks.com http://www.mathworks.com ---

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Storage Wars!
by Horace Mann 24 Mar '01

24 Mar '01

Interesting link I found on Google: http://www.maxstrat.com/oracle1pr.html Alan Benway really seems to like local attached disks. He's been in the business for more than 20 years-it says so at the end of his article. Let's see here-(2001-20) = 1981. Wow! Mainframe days-interesting. Hey wait a minute! Hmmmm.... Who had all the mainframe storage-wait-don't tell me... EMC! Of course! So, local attached-DAS-must be better. Right. Sure. Certainly. NOT. This guy has no clue. I recommend a nice big flame war on this subject because NAS and NetApp is *way* better. DAS sucks, we all must agree. SAN is DAS with a whole bunch of non-standard fibre channel in the middle, which makes it worse. We all have ethernet networks today. Why not continue to use and grow them? Why build a new network that makes no sense? Software is what fails-not hardware. 100% of what makes a fibre SAN go is software. THINK People! Don't buy storage lottery tickets because you don't know any better. Learn something and understand the real math. NetApp rocks and will be the friction that eventually stops the momentum of the EMC nightmare. Let the healing flames begin! Horace Mann __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

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RE: ASP caching
by Braunschweiger, Udo 22 Mar '01

22 Mar '01

We experiencing the same behaviour (or better misbehaviour) within a customers site. Obviously the files stored on the filer must have read-Permission for "Everyone" at the file-level (not share-level). Then this happen not very often. If it happen, It is not nesessary to restart the whole IIS. It is enough to "unload" the cache for the affected virtual web. Good Luck > -----Original Message----- > From: Jean-Christophe Smith [mailto:jsmith@publichost.com] > Sent: Montag, 19. März 2001 20:37 > To: 'toasters(a)mathworks.com ' > Subject: ASP caching > > > > We have a cluster of Windows 2000 servers running IIS 5.0, > content lives on > a NetApp F720 running OnTap Release 5.3.7R2. Our customers > use FTP to upload > their web pages. > > IIS is caching ASP(active server pages), customers will make > changes to > their ASP files and try to view them(view IIS) and they see > the older pages. > I read about this issue entitled "5.3 Active Server Page > Caching" in the > NetApp document "Integrating a NetApp Filer with Microsoft IIS". I > understand it is an issue with CIFS change/notify events and > the way IIS was > designed. > > Does anybody know a way of fixing this? or maybe way to increase the > change/notify events, or... > > For now, we have to restart IIS when changes are made. > > Maybe I could write a program to manually induce change/notify events? > > Thanks, > Jean-Christophe Smith > jsmith(a)publichost.com > VitalStream.com > >

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using rsync with vol copy
by Coder, James (STP) 22 Mar '01

22 Mar '01

I am getting ready to move a volume (with 36gb disk) that's internal to the filer to a new volume (with 72gb disk). Have seen some references to rsync in the toasters. I looked at their web page and in the process of building it. How do you folks feel about it? My original plan is to move the data overnight, update the filer exports, cifs and nis, then turn it back over (approx 12 hours of work during a weekend). Seems with rsync I can do the initial copy and then come back over it with an "incremental" and be less intrusive of my engineers? What's been your experience? Please just post reponses to toasters. thx -jc James C. Coder Guidant CRM email: james.coder(a)guidant.com Phone: 651-582-4797

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RE: using rsync with vol copy
by Haynes, Tom 21 Mar '01

21 Mar '01

You can also do this with ndmpcopy (which does not require a license) and with snapmirror (which requires a license). http://www.ndmp.org/download/ndmpcopy/index.html You can specify the level: 0 (full dump) to 9 (incrementals). It grabs and keeps ACLs, which can be important if you have any CIFS users. -----Original Message----- From: Coder, James (STP) [mailto:james.coder@guidant.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2001 12:58 PM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: using rsync with vol copy I am getting ready to move a volume (with 36gb disk) that's internal to the filer to a new volume (with 72gb disk). Have seen some references to rsync in the toasters. I looked at their web page and in the process of building it. How do you folks feel about it? My original plan is to move the data overnight, update the filer exports, cifs and nis, then turn it back over (approx 12 hours of work during a weekend). Seems with rsync I can do the initial copy and then come back over it with an "incremental" and be less intrusive of my engineers? What's been your experience? Please just post reponses to toasters. thx -jc James C. Coder Guidant CRM email: james.coder(a)guidant.com Phone: 651-582-4797

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IBM HACMP support
by Levent Kaptanoglu 21 Mar '01

21 Mar '01

Is there anybody used Filer with IBM HACMP ? I want to know if HACMP supports Filer or not ? --------------------------------- Levent KAPTANOGLU System Engineer PROLINK phone : +90 216 5737300 ext:108 mobile: +90 532 450 72 83

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RE: Getting lists of bugs fixed in an ONTAP release
by La Londe, Renee 21 Mar '01

21 Mar '01

Hi Chris, One clarification (may not be clear in my note below). When you perfom the "All Bugs Lookup" query for any specific release it gives you all bugs fixed in the specified release + all bugs fixed in every single prior release that has ever been released by Netapp. (that is why the list appears long--because it is showing you ALL). As noted below, if you want to find out *just what was fixed* in any specific release you can do so by comparing it to the previous release in our 'Release Comparison Tool' http://now.netapp.com/NOW/cgi-bin/relcmp.on Thanks again, Renee Get Answers on NOW (Netapp on the Web)! http://now.netapp.com -----Original Message----- From: La Londe, Renee Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 2:39 PM To: 'cet1(a)cus.cam.ac.uk' Cc: 'toasters(a)mathworks.com' Subject: RE: Getting lists of bugs fixed in an ONTAP release Hi Chris, First I'd like to apologize for the problems we were experiencing with the bug tools yesterday. I'd also like to thank you for the candid feedback. Here are some updates regarding the issues you mentioned: We have fixed the issue with the Realease Comparison Tool so you can use it to see a list of bugs fixed in 6.0.2 that were not fixed in 6.0.1R3. Here is the link: http://now.netapp.com/NOW/cgi-bin/relcmp.on Just select the check box for 6.0.1R3 and in the 'Other' field enter '6.0.2' and click 'Go'. It will compare these two releases and generate the list of bug differences between the two. I think this is the information you were looking for, correct? We're also going to go back through the release notes for 6.0.2 (and previous releases) and update the pages so that the links to our bug tools are less confusing.. We have also fixed the issue with 6.0.2 "all bugs lookup" so you can now click on the link below, enter '6.0.2' in the 'Other' field, and you'll get a cumulative list of all the bugs fixed in this release (there are over 1000 so it will take a few moments for the page to display... we're working an enhancement to break the results up into seperate pages where you can click 'next' rather than having them all display on a single page - less overwhelming...). Let me know if you have any questions or additional feedback. Thanks again, Renee Get Answers on NOW (Netapp on the Web)! http://now.netapp.com -----Original Message----- From: Chris Thompson [mailto:cet1@cus.cam.ac.uk] Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 1:26 PM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: Getting lists of bugs fixed in an ONTAP release Those who have looked at the "Start Here" document for 6.0.2 may have noticed that the "Bugs Fixed" section has been replaced by a reference to the "Access Software Bug Tools" section of now.netapp.com. This is presumably a Sign Of Things To Come for future releases... This would make sense if I could actually get the *bleep*ing list out of now.netapp.com: specifically, say, a list of bugs fixed in 6.0.2 that were not fixed in 6.0.1R3. Has anyone managed this trick? When I select the "All Bugs Lookup" option, I get offered a list of pretty moth-eaten releases (5.2.3, 5.2.3P1, 5.3.6R2, 5.3.7) and "Other(s)", but when I put anything recent into the latter box, I seem to always get a null response to "Go". Chris Thompson University of Cambridge Computing Service, Email: cet1(a)ucs.cam.ac.uk New Museums Site, Cambridge CB2 3QG, Phone: +44 1223 334715 United Kingdom.

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RE: Getting lists of bugs fixed in an ONTAP release
by La Londe, Renee 20 Mar '01

20 Mar '01

Hi Chris, First I'd like to apologize for the problems we were experiencing with the bug tools yesterday. I'd also like to thank you for the candid feedback. Here are some updates regarding the issues you mentioned: We have fixed the issue with the Realease Comparison Tool so you can use it to see a list of bugs fixed in 6.0.2 that were not fixed in 6.0.1R3. Here is the link: http://now.netapp.com/NOW/cgi-bin/relcmp.on Just select the check box for 6.0.1R3 and in the 'Other' field enter '6.0.2' and click 'Go'. It will compare these two releases and generate the list of bug differences between the two. I think this is the information you were looking for, correct? We're also going to go back through the release notes for 6.0.2 (and previous releases) and update the pages so that the links to our bug tools are less confusing.. We have also fixed the issue with 6.0.2 "all bugs lookup" so you can now click on the link below, enter '6.0.2' in the 'Other' field, and you'll get a cumulative list of all the bugs fixed in this release (there are over 1000 so it will take a few moments for the page to display... we're working an enhancement to break the results up into seperate pages where you can click 'next' rather than having them all display on a single page - less overwhelming...). Let me know if you have any questions or additional feedback. Thanks again, Renee Get Answers on NOW (Netapp on the Web)! http://now.netapp.com -----Original Message----- From: Chris Thompson [mailto:cet1@cus.cam.ac.uk] Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 1:26 PM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: Getting lists of bugs fixed in an ONTAP release Those who have looked at the "Start Here" document for 6.0.2 may have noticed that the "Bugs Fixed" section has been replaced by a reference to the "Access Software Bug Tools" section of now.netapp.com. This is presumably a Sign Of Things To Come for future releases... This would make sense if I could actually get the *bleep*ing list out of now.netapp.com: specifically, say, a list of bugs fixed in 6.0.2 that were not fixed in 6.0.1R3. Has anyone managed this trick? When I select the "All Bugs Lookup" option, I get offered a list of pretty moth-eaten releases (5.2.3, 5.2.3P1, 5.3.6R2, 5.3.7) and "Other(s)", but when I put anything recent into the latter box, I seem to always get a null response to "Go". Chris Thompson University of Cambridge Computing Service, Email: cet1(a)ucs.cam.ac.uk New Museums Site, Cambridge CB2 3QG, Phone: +44 1223 334715 United Kingdom.

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RE: CIFS not working after ...
by Jankowski Ted-CTJ012 20 Mar '01

20 Mar '01

This is bug 28491 http://now.netapp.com/NOW/cgi-bin/bol?Type=Detail&Display=28491 It's fixed in 5.3.7 and better. -----Original Message----- From: Farid Hamjavar [mailto:hamjavar@unm.edu] Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 11:30 AM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: CIFS not working after ... NetApp Release 5.3.6R2 hello, In our environment, we're experiencing that those who applied sp1 to their windows 2000 professional are no longer able to map a drive off a share served by netapp filer -- They were able before applying sp1. Does that mean such users need to wait for sp2 to arrive? Farid

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RE: CIFS not working after ...
by Loux, Linda 20 Mar '01

20 Mar '01

I have both workstations and servers with Win2K SP1 installed, and have not seen this problem. You probably need to further review your cifs settings. -----Original Message----- From: Farid Hamjavar [mailto:hamjavar@unm.edu] Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 9:30 AM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: CIFS not working after ... NetApp Release 5.3.6R2 hello, In our environment, we're experiencing that those who applied sp1 to their windows 2000 professional are no longer able to map a drive off a share served by netapp filer -- They were able before applying sp1. Does that mean such users need to wait for sp2 to arrive? Farid **************************************************************************** This e-mail message is the property of Rosetta Inpharmatics and may contain information that is confidential and/or privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, disclosure, copying, or communication of the contents of this message is prohibited. If this message was received in error, please forward a copy to mail_admin(a)rii.com and delete the message and any attachments from your computer. Thank you. ****************************************************************************

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Getting lists of bugs fixed in an ONTAP release
by Chris Thompson 19 Mar '01

19 Mar '01

Those who have looked at the "Start Here" document for 6.0.2 may have noticed that the "Bugs Fixed" section has been replaced by a reference to the "Access Software Bug Tools" section of now.netapp.com. This is presumably a Sign Of Things To Come for future releases... This would make sense if I could actually get the *bleep*ing list out of now.netapp.com: specifically, say, a list of bugs fixed in 6.0.2 that were not fixed in 6.0.1R3. Has anyone managed this trick? When I select the "All Bugs Lookup" option, I get offered a list of pretty moth-eaten releases (5.2.3, 5.2.3P1, 5.3.6R2, 5.3.7) and "Other(s)", but when I put anything recent into the latter box, I seem to always get a null response to "Go". Chris Thompson University of Cambridge Computing Service, Email: cet1(a)ucs.cam.ac.uk New Museums Site, Cambridge CB2 3QG, Phone: +44 1223 334715 United Kingdom.

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RE: MS Exchange on Netapps
by Martin Hughes 19 Mar '01

19 Mar '01

Apologies, everyone, I've just had a check with my guys here and the E2K version isn't scheduled that soon but there is an upgrade to the existing SnapManager software coming along presently. I'll keep asking and see if I can refine the dates somewhat. I hope I didn't cause anyone to radically revise their rollout plans :-) Regards Martin Enterprise Storage/Enterprise Server Group <mailto:martin.hughes@halliburton.com> cellphone: +1 713 303 9214 office: +1 281 871 4124 -----Original Message----- From: Martin Hughes [mailto:Martin.Hughes@Halliburton.com] Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 2:02 PM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: RE: MS Exchange on Netapps We have a Win2K server running Exchange 5.5, using the NAS as local disk though a non-routed Gb ethernet fibre connection. Works like a charm. We're using Snapbackup for Exchange and have live mailboxes working without problems. We're starting to go with this solution for all of our major property locations, having been assured by our local NetApp guys that the Snapmanager programs for Exchange 2K are going to be available within our timeframe (Apr/May 01). We don't have huge numbers of mailboxes on the filer as yet but we're aiming to have a 100Gb information store/volume as soon as we can migrate the users across. Only issues I have with it is the requirement to have a volume 2.1xExchange database size to allow for restores (there has to be space to restore the full database back to the same volume) but this is being addressed in the E2K release as well. The one database/volume restriction also adds some overhead but not a huge amount. Regards Martin Enterprise Storage/Enterprise Server Group <mailto:martin.hughes@halliburton.com> cellphone: +1 713 303 9214 office: +1 281 871 4124 -----Original Message----- From: Morgan, Joshua [mailto:JMorgan@nuvox.com] Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 1:42 PM To: 'Jennifer Armenta'; 'Mike Sphar'; toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: RE: MS Exchange on Netapps We are currently running Exchange with our Databases located on an F760 we also use Snapshots to do backups -----Original Message----- From: Jennifer Armenta [mailto:ArmentaJ@mascorp.com] Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 2:30 PM To: 'Mike Sphar'; toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: RE: MS Exchange on Netapps Yes my point exactly, MS is protecting themselves. Is anyone running Exchange with/without issues. As for Oracle on NetApp I heard it doesn't like high transaction dbases. What is the ideal place for Exchange dbase ?(my bet EMC since that pretty close to have local disk) -----Original Message----- From: Mike Sphar [mailto:mikey@Remedy.COM] Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 11:21 AM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: RE: MS Exchange on Netapps My thoughts are that any article that refers to gigabit Ethernet as an "emerging technology" is highly suspect. I wonder if Microsoft is trying to insinuate that Oracle databases (which can run over NAS) are less "robust" and "high-performance" than their jet-based exchange DB, which allegedly can't. Having said that, I probably wouldn't put my Exchange DBs on a filer. Too much risk of something going wrong and MS saying "Sorry, we told you not to. You're on your own." -- Mike Sphar - Sr Systems Administrator - Engineering Support Services - Remedy Corporation BOFH, GWP, MCP, MCP+I, MCSE, BFD "We all agree that your theory is crazy, but is it crazy enough?" - Niels Bohr "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands and hoist the black flag." - H.L. Mencken (paraphrased) -----Original Message----- From: Jennifer Armenta [mailto:ArmentaJ@mascorp.com] Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 10:32 AM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: MS Exchange on Netapps Any thoughts on this from anyone one... why is NetApps saying they are working with MS on this issue? doesn't sound like it from this KB article... http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/q288/2/12.asp

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RE: Getting lists of bugs fixed in an ONTAP release
by Melvin, Grant 19 Mar '01

19 Mar '01

Hi Chris, If you choose the "Release Comparison Tool" at: http://now.netapp.com/Self-Service/Forms/SupportHome.asp And enter '6.0.1R3 6.0.2' in the Other(s) section. I believe you will get the list you want. Cheers, Grant -----Original Message----- From: Chris Thompson [mailto:cet1@cus.cam.ac.uk] Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 1:26 PM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: Getting lists of bugs fixed in an ONTAP release Those who have looked at the "Start Here" document for 6.0.2 may have noticed that the "Bugs Fixed" section has been replaced by a reference to the "Access Software Bug Tools" section of now.netapp.com. This is presumably a Sign Of Things To Come for future releases... This would make sense if I could actually get the *bleep*ing list out of now.netapp.com: specifically, say, a list of bugs fixed in 6.0.2 that were not fixed in 6.0.1R3. Has anyone managed this trick? When I select the "All Bugs Lookup" option, I get offered a list of pretty moth-eaten releases (5.2.3, 5.2.3P1, 5.3.6R2, 5.3.7) and "Other(s)", but when I put anything recent into the latter box, I seem to always get a null response to "Go". Chris Thompson University of Cambridge Computing Service, Email: cet1(a)ucs.cam.ac.uk New Museums Site, Cambridge CB2 3QG, Phone: +44 1223 334715 United Kingdom.

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RE: Oracle DBs on a filer
by Browning, Jeff 19 Mar '01

19 Mar '01

All: A recent TR published on NetApp's external web documents our performance on OLTP. This can be found at: http://www.netapp.com/tech_library/3105.html <http://www.netapp.com/tech_library/3105.html> The conclusion is that NetApp filers are appropriate and provide good performance for production OLTP databases. See the TR for more information. Thanks. Jeff

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RE: ASP caching
by Benn, Paul 19 Mar '01

19 Mar '01

8><----snip----snip----snip---- I understand it is an issue with CIFS change/notify events and the way IIS was designed. 8><----snip----snip----snip---- I just wanted to clear up what might actually be happening here.... There were some change/notify issues in earlier versions of ONTAP that only IIS would expose but they've since been cleared up. If you're running Data ONTAP 5.3.6R2 or later (as documented in the IIS paper) along with the latest Windows/IIS patches *AND* have configured the cifs.max_mpx option on the filer (also documented in the white paper), the ASP caching problem should in most cases be resolved. However, there are a still few case where it is a problem. In those cases, the problem has to do with the MS redirector resetting. When the redirector resets, all pending change/notifies are lost. We don't believe this to be a problem with the filer but if you still experience the problem after configuring the cifs.max_mpx setting, please open a call with NetApp customer support. For reference, here's a link to the white paper (which was updated in December in case you haven't looked at it in a while): http://www.netapp.com/tech_library/3078.html Best Regards, Paul Benn Network Appliance

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MS Exchange on Netapps
by Cooper, Brian 19 Mar '01

19 Mar '01

I have run Exchange 5.5 (sp3) on a Filer for 2 years now without incident. The front end boxes serve up data to greater than 3000 users in a 3 state area. No problem. In fact, my ability to recover from ANY incident is greatly enhanced by this configuration. (I also use Snapmanager for Exchange). I think the KB article referenced speaks more to MS political leanings than actual technical issues. Which is weird, when you know that Netapp is a full partner with Intel and Microsoft concerning implementations of Exchange (and SQL) on Filers. I think the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing. Ours likes Oracle as well - so go figure. Big high transaction DB's are its meat and potatoes. And I wouldn't waste my money on EMC crap. Poor design and a million bucks everytime they open their mouths. Feel free to email me for more details on our SUCCESS story. Thanks Brian Cooper BOkf Technical Services Tulsa, Oklahoma bcooper(a)mail.bokf.com -----Original Message----- From: Jennifer Armenta [mailto:ArmentaJ@mascorp.com] Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 1:30 PM To: 'Mike Sphar'; toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: RE: MS Exchange on Netapps Yes my point exactly, MS is protecting themselves. Is anyone running Exchange with/without issues. As for Oracle on NetApp I heard it doesn't like high transaction dbases. What is the ideal place for Exchange dbase ?(my bet EMC since that pretty close to have local disk) -----Original Message----- From: Mike Sphar [mailto:mikey@Remedy.COM] Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 11:21 AM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: RE: MS Exchange on Netapps My thoughts are that any article that refers to gigabit Ethernet as an "emerging technology" is highly suspect. I wonder if Microsoft is trying to insinuate that Oracle databases (which can run over NAS) are less "robust" and "high-performance" than their jet-based exchange DB, which allegedly can't. Having said that, I probably wouldn't put my Exchange DBs on a filer. Too much risk of something going wrong and MS saying "Sorry, we told you not to. You're on your own." -- Mike Sphar - Sr Systems Administrator - Engineering Support Services - Remedy Corporation BOFH, GWP, MCP, MCP+I, MCSE, BFD "We all agree that your theory is crazy, but is it crazy enough?" - Niels Bohr "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands and hoist the black flag." - H.L. Mencken (paraphrased) -----Original Message----- From: Jennifer Armenta [mailto:ArmentaJ@mascorp.com] Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 10:32 AM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: MS Exchange on Netapps Any thoughts on this from anyone one... why is NetApps saying they are working with MS on this issue? doesn't sound like it from this KB article... http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/q288/2/12.asp

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RE: Oracle DBs on a filer
by Maglinger, Paul 19 Mar '01

19 Mar '01

The only issue that I'm running into using our 740 to store our database files is that the information is changing every day and as a result our snapshots are eating our volume alive. I increased the reserve to 25% and that helped for awhile, then I reduced the amount of snaps to twice a day and retain 4. Still, I'm over 100% constantly. -----Original Message----- From: Yarmas, Tom [mailto:Tom.Yarmas@netapp.com] Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 14:43 To: 'Jennifer Armenta'; toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: RE: Oracle DBs on a filer I would agree that Filers work well for databases, but I would not limit that to DSS workloads. In fact, I would say that Filers offer tremendous benefits to OLTP environments. Particularly performance and admin features. As for performance, everyone has an opinion, and every application will re-act differently. It is very difficult to make a blanket statement like "it only works for ...". I am with NetApp, and you were probably looking for shall we say, less biased input. However, I felt compelled to respond. I hope you will indulge me. I have used Filers with Oracle while working at Oracle, and had very good performance. I will let others attest to their own experiences, but I will point you to a document comparing perf. of locally attached FC disks with a Filer - http://www.netapp.com/tech_library/3105.html I am not sure what you mean by NetApp comes right out and says that they don't recommend using their box in OLTP configurations. I don't know of any recommendation like that. > The biggest reason is that OLTP database tend to be lots of little transactions and since you are using NFS (relatively big transactions) you won't get the performance gains as you would with a DSS config. Relative to what? Databases usually deal in block sizes of 4K, 8K or larger. Since the database block is the smallest amount of data that would be read or written, I don't think that NFS would cause an undue burden. In fact the NFS frame size can be set to match the database block size if that were necessary. But in fact, most databases will do read ahead (like the multi-block read ahead in Oracle) so that larger read sizes could benefit the database even in an OLTP environment. -tom

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RE: ASP caching
by Benn, Paul 19 Mar '01

19 Mar '01

Jean-Christophe, If you haven't already done so, be sure to set the cifs.max_mpx option according to section 4.3.1 of the same paper. An inappropriate setting might also cause this problem: http://www.netapp.com/tech_library/3078.html#4.3.1 Regards, Paul Benn Network Appliance -----Original Message----- From: Jean-Christophe Smith [mailto:jsmith@publichost.com] Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 11:37 AM To: 'toasters(a)mathworks.com ' Subject: ASP caching We have a cluster of Windows 2000 servers running IIS 5.0, content lives on a NetApp F720 running OnTap Release 5.3.7R2. Our customers use FTP to upload their web pages. IIS is caching ASP(active server pages), customers will make changes to their ASP files and try to view them(view IIS) and they see the older pages. I read about this issue entitled "5.3 Active Server Page Caching" in the NetApp document "Integrating a NetApp Filer with Microsoft IIS". I understand it is an issue with CIFS change/notify events and the way IIS was designed. Does anybody know a way of fixing this? or maybe way to increase the change/notify events, or... For now, we have to restart IIS when changes are made. Maybe I could write a program to manually induce change/notify events? Thanks, Jean-Christophe Smith jsmith(a)publichost.com VitalStream.com

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RE: ASP caching
by Benn, Paul 19 Mar '01

19 Mar '01

Perhaps this will help: http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/Q247/3/89.ASP -----Original Message----- From: Lyons, Jim [mailto:jimbo@ti.com] Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 12:13 PM To: 'theffron(a)wisedata.com'; 'toasters(a)mathworks.com ' Subject: RE: ASP caching This is a setting on the IIS server. In IIS 4.0, you set this in the application configuration for apps that are set to run in a separate memory space. This is under the 'Process Options' tab. You can set it to cache ASP or not. We run some apps that cache and some that don't on the same IIS servers with the virtual directories located on netapps. I'm not sure where this is in 5.0, but look around, I am pretty sure this is not a netapp problem. Jim -----Original Message----- From: Jean-Christophe Smith [mailto:jsmith@publichost.com] Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 1:37 PM To: 'toasters(a)mathworks.com ' Subject: ASP caching We have a cluster of Windows 2000 servers running IIS 5.0, content lives on a NetApp F720 running OnTap Release 5.3.7R2. Our customers use FTP to upload their web pages. IIS is caching ASP(active server pages), customers will make changes to their ASP files and try to view them(view IIS) and they see the older pages. I read about this issue entitled "5.3 Active Server Page Caching" in the NetApp document "Integrating a NetApp Filer with Microsoft IIS". I understand it is an issue with CIFS change/notify events and the way IIS was designed. Does anybody know a way of fixing this? or maybe way to increase the change/notify events, or... For now, we have to restart IIS when changes are made. Maybe I could write a program to manually induce change/notify events? Thanks, Jean-Christophe Smith jsmith(a)publichost.com VitalStream.com

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RE: MS Exchange on Netapps
by Loux, Linda 19 Mar '01

19 Mar '01

I have been running Exchange databases on a F720 for about three months. While documenting our Disaster Recovery procedure, I managed to fill the disks, causing a failure. I should have disabled snapshots while I was doing this, as my frequent changes caused snapshots to consume way too much disk space. I got great support from Network Appliance in restoring the database -- after I had the case escalated. The first support engineer I was talking to had very little experience with Exchange. While I understand they all need to learn about SnapManager, the time to do this was not during my emergency. Since this problem occurred, I have started using SnapMirror, and could now get back to any time within the past 4 hours from my mirrored volume. Linda Loux Systems Administrator Rosetta Inpharmatics -----Original Message----- From: Jennifer Armenta [mailto:ArmentaJ@mascorp.com] Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 11:30 AM To: 'Mike Sphar'; toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: RE: MS Exchange on Netapps Yes my point exactly, MS is protecting themselves. Is anyone running Exchange with/without issues. As for Oracle on NetApp I heard it doesn't like high transaction dbases. What is the ideal place for Exchange dbase ?(my bet EMC since that pretty close to have local disk) -----Original Message----- From: Mike Sphar [mailto:mikey@Remedy.COM] Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 11:21 AM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: RE: MS Exchange on Netapps My thoughts are that any article that refers to gigabit Ethernet as an "emerging technology" is highly suspect. I wonder if Microsoft is trying to insinuate that Oracle databases (which can run over NAS) are less "robust" and "high-performance" than their jet-based exchange DB, which allegedly can't. Having said that, I probably wouldn't put my Exchange DBs on a filer. Too much risk of something going wrong and MS saying "Sorry, we told you not to. You're on your own." -- Mike Sphar - Sr Systems Administrator - Engineering Support Services - Remedy Corporation BOFH, GWP, MCP, MCP+I, MCSE, BFD "We all agree that your theory is crazy, but is it crazy enough?" - Niels Bohr "Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands and hoist the black flag." - H.L. Mencken (paraphrased) -----Original Message----- From: Jennifer Armenta [mailto:ArmentaJ@mascorp.com] Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 10:32 AM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: MS Exchange on Netapps Any thoughts on this from anyone one... why is NetApps saying they are working with MS on this issue? doesn't sound like it from this KB article... http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/q288/2/12.asp **************************************************************************** This e-mail message is the property of Rosetta Inpharmatics and may contain information that is confidential and/or privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, disclosure, copying, or communication of the contents of this message is prohibited. If this message was received in error, please forward a copy to mail_admin(a)rii.com and delete the message and any attachments from your computer. Thank you. ****************************************************************************

1 0

ASP caching
by Jean-Christophe Smith 19 Mar '01

19 Mar '01

We have a cluster of Windows 2000 servers running IIS 5.0, content lives on a NetApp F720 running OnTap Release 5.3.7R2. Our customers use FTP to upload their web pages. IIS is caching ASP(active server pages), customers will make changes to their ASP files and try to view them(view IIS) and they see the older pages. I read about this issue entitled "5.3 Active Server Page Caching" in the NetApp document "Integrating a NetApp Filer with Microsoft IIS". I understand it is an issue with CIFS change/notify events and the way IIS was designed. Does anybody know a way of fixing this? or maybe way to increase the change/notify events, or... For now, we have to restart IIS when changes are made. Maybe I could write a program to manually induce change/notify events? Thanks, Jean-Christophe Smith jsmith(a)publichost.com VitalStream.com

2 1

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