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13531 discussions

RE: FLOW CONTROL
by nick.mayrath＠webmd.net 03 Apr '02

03 Apr '02

What kind of benefit does setting 'receive' to 'desired' bring? "Eff Norwood" <effrem.norwood@cyn To: <mlelstv(a)xlink.net>, "Noll, Kevin" <kevin.noll(a)cgey.com> aptic.com> cc: "'Toasters $E-mail$'" <toasters(a)mathworks.com> Sent by: Subject: RE: FLOW CONTROL owner-toasters@math works.com 04/02/2002 02:14 PM By default Cisco sets flow control to enable on the send side only. To enable flowcontrol in both directions as desired: set port flowcontrol 2/1-12 send desired set port flowcontrol 2/1-12 receive desired If you are going to make these kinds of changes to other switches in your network, do the far ends first so you don't get dropped. Eff Norwood > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com > [mailto:owner-toasters@mathworks.com]On Behalf Of Michael van Elst > Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 11:32 AM > To: Noll, Kevin > Cc: 'mlelstv(a)xlink.net'; 'Toasters (E-mail)' > Subject: Re: FLOW CONTROL > > > On Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 02:19:59PM +0100, Noll, Kevin wrote: > > Sorry, are you refering to the desired and off, or are you > saying that it > > should be enabled? > > I am referring to the combination: > > send desired > receive off > > Greetings, > Michael van Elst > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Michael van Elst [mailto:mlelstv@xlink.net] > > Sent: 02 April 2002 14:21 > > To: Noll, Kevin > > Cc: 'Toasters (E-mail)' > > Subject: Re: FLOW CONTROL > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 01:21:24PM +0100, Noll, Kevin wrote: > > > Hi All > > > > > > > > > We are standardized with Sun and Cisco equipment. All > equipment on our > > > Database Vlans are using Gig Ethernet. Flow control on our > sun servers > > are > > > set to on. However, on our Cisco Switches, the settings are > as follows. > > > > > > set port flowcontrol 2/1-12 send desired > > > > > > set port flowcontrol 2/1-12 receive off > > > > > > > > > I am not a cisco engineer, but would like to know if this is > correct. I > > > believe it should be both on. > > > > > > This is the configuration that was necessary on our site (and the same > > with IOS-based switches). It was also recommended by our local NetApp > > people. > > > > I guess this makes it as 'correct' as possible. > > > > > > Greetings, > > -- > > i.A. Michael van Elst / phone: +49 721 9652 330 > > Xlink - Network Information Centre \/ fax: +49 721 9652 349 > > Emmy-Noether-Strasse 9 /\ link http://nic.xlink.net/ > > D-76131 Karlsruhe, Germany /_______ email: > hostmaster(a)xlink.net > > [ KPNQwest Germany GmbH, Sitz Karlsruhe > ] > > [ Amtsgericht Karlsruhe HRB 8161, Geschaeftsfuehrer: Michael > Mueller-Berg ] > > > > > > > ****************************************************************** > ************************** > > " This message contains information that may be privileged or > confidential and > > is the property of the Cap Gemini Ernst & Young Group. It is > intended only for > > the person to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended > recipient, you > > are not authorized to read, print, retain, copy, disseminate, > distribute, or use > > this message or any part thereof. If you receive this message > in error, please > > notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this message ". > > > ****************************************************************** > ************************** > -- > i.A. Michael van Elst / phone: +49 721 9652 330 > Xlink - Network Information Centre \/ fax: +49 721 9652 349 > Emmy-Noether-Strasse 9 /\ link http://nic.xlink.net/ > D-76131 Karlsruhe, Germany /_______ email: > hostmaster(a)xlink.net > [ KPNQwest Germany GmbH, Sitz Karlsruhe > ] > [ Amtsgericht Karlsruhe HRB 8161, Geschaeftsfuehrer: Michael > Mueller-Berg ]

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RE: FLOW CONTROL
by Noll, Kevin 02 Apr '02

02 Apr '02

Sorry, are you refering to the desired and off, or are you saying that it should be enabled? Thanks -----Original Message----- From: Michael van Elst [mailto:mlelstv@xlink.net] Sent: 02 April 2002 14:21 To: Noll, Kevin Cc: 'Toasters (E-mail)' Subject: Re: FLOW CONTROL On Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 01:21:24PM +0100, Noll, Kevin wrote: > Hi All > > > We are standardized with Sun and Cisco equipment. All equipment on our > Database Vlans are using Gig Ethernet. Flow control on our sun servers are > set to on. However, on our Cisco Switches, the settings are as follows. > > set port flowcontrol 2/1-12 send desired > > set port flowcontrol 2/1-12 receive off > > > I am not a cisco engineer, but would like to know if this is correct. I > believe it should be both on. This is the configuration that was necessary on our site (and the same with IOS-based switches). It was also recommended by our local NetApp people. I guess this makes it as 'correct' as possible. Greetings, -- i.A. Michael van Elst / phone: +49 721 9652 330 Xlink - Network Information Centre \/ fax: +49 721 9652 349 Emmy-Noether-Strasse 9 /\ link http://nic.xlink.net/ D-76131 Karlsruhe, Germany /_______ email: hostmaster(a)xlink.net [ KPNQwest Germany GmbH, Sitz Karlsruhe ] [ Amtsgericht Karlsruhe HRB 8161, Geschaeftsfuehrer: Michael Mueller-Berg ] ******************************************************************************************** " This message contains information that may be privileged or confidential and is the property of the Cap Gemini Ernst & Young Group. It is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, you are not authorized to read, print, retain, copy, disseminate, distribute, or use this message or any part thereof. If you receive this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this message ". ********************************************************************************************

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spinning spares..
by kevin graham 02 Apr '02

02 Apr '02

Does anyone know if OnTAP spins down spares? IIRC, when I've pulled spares in the past, they were definately spinning. I can't say for sure why this is bothering me, but it would seem that leaving them idle would be a good thing.. From looking at specs, even older drives will be ready in NLT 20s, which isn't enough to seriously impact rebuild times, and the drive is still available for non-media access commands, so it seems like an all 'round good idea.. Is there something I'm overlooking, or is this completely inconsequential in the grand scheme of things? ..kg..

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qtree
by pkeim(contr-ird) 02 Apr '02

02 Apr '02

Is there a way to quickly determine the amount of disk space consumed by each qtrees without having to use Windows Explorer? We don't have quotas enabled, so I can't use "quota report". We have an F840 with 6.1.2R1 (I have a feeling I'm going to regret asking this because the answer is so easy, but I can't find it!)

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RE: adding different drive sizes to an existing volume
by Joe Luchtenberg 02 Apr '02

02 Apr '02

This exceeds the max capacity of the F740. You could get away with 3x FC9 shelves with 36GB drives and 2x shelves with 18GB drives. See http://now.netapp.com/NOW/knowledge/docs/hardware/NetApp/syscfg/scdot612/ind ex.htm. Joe Joe Luchtenberg Dataline, Inc. Email: joe.luchtenberg(a)data-line.com Phone: 757-457-0504 (direct line) 757-858-0600 (front desk) 757-285-1223 (mobile) Fax: 757-858-0606 Please visit us at www.data-line.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Eric Hester [mailto:erich@nuvox.net] > Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 11:36 AM > To: toasters(a)mathworks.com > Subject: adding different drive sizes to an existing volume > > > I have an F740 with 3 FC9 shelves loaded with 18gig drives. > I have 3 FC9 shelves loaded with 36gig drives from another > netapp I want > to move to the F740. > > If I add these drives to an existing volume but make them > their own raid > group, and leave one 36gig spare, that will not cause me any heartache > will it? > > -- > Eric Hester > Director of Systems Engineering > NuVox Communications, Inc. > 864.331.8171 eric(a)nuvox.net >

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adding different drive sizes to an existing volume
by Eric Hester 02 Apr '02

02 Apr '02

I have an F740 with 3 FC9 shelves loaded with 18gig drives. I have 3 FC9 shelves loaded with 36gig drives from another netapp I want to move to the F740. If I add these drives to an existing volume but make them their own raid group, and leave one 36gig spare, that will not cause me any heartache will it? -- Eric Hester Director of Systems Engineering NuVox Communications, Inc. 864.331.8171 eric(a)nuvox.net

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NTP not working
by Frank Bonnet 02 Apr '02

02 Apr '02

Hi I'm still in trouble wit a F85 running 6.1.1R2 the clock is getting late ( about 20 mins a week ) I have to reset it manually to correct the local time of the filer. Is this a known Ontap bug or is it a hardware problem ? NTP is on but it doesn't seems to works well as all our UNIX machines are NTP sync with success on the same NTP server ... Thanks for any help.

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FLOW CONTROL
by Noll, Kevin 02 Apr '02

02 Apr '02

Hi All We are standardized with Sun and Cisco equipment. All equipment on our Database Vlans are using Gig Ethernet. Flow control on our sun servers are set to on. However, on our Cisco Switches, the settings are as follows. set port flowcontrol 2/1-12 send desired set port flowcontrol 2/1-12 receive off I am not a cisco engineer, but would like to know if this is correct. I believe it should be both on. What type of throughput should you see of a file copy over gig ethernet? Thanks KEVIN NOLL ******************************************************************************************** " This message contains information that may be privileged or confidential and is the property of the Cap Gemini Ernst & Young Group. It is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, you are not authorized to read, print, retain, copy, disseminate, distribute, or use this message or any part thereof. If you receive this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this message ". ********************************************************************************************

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SNMP Failure Detection
by Ben Rockwood 31 Mar '02

31 Mar '02

Hello Toasters. I've been using a script to monitor disk failures on our filers. It's worked pretty well in the past, but I've hit a snag today... Normally I can tell if a disk has failed in one of two ways: 1) Check the SNMP "disks.failed" value, if !eq 1, we've got a problem. 2) Check via SNMP, the total number of disks, then check the number of active disks, and add to it the number of spare disks. If total disks !eq to active plus spare disk, then there is a failure. The second method is often needed for the failures that "slip through the cracks", and is sufficent. However today a disk failed and in doing so was removed from the TOTAL disk count, and not added as a failed disk, so in a case where I have 84 disks, I get the following output from my script: The global message is: "The system's global status is normal. " Total disk count is: 83 The Active Disk Count is: 82 The Spare Disk Count is: 1 The Failed Disk Count is: 0 I've omitted the non-relevent output from my script, which does simple snmpget's from the Net-SNMP app. Anyway, three things went wrong here, the global message doesn't reflect a failure. The total disk count was decremented when it should not have and the failed disk count is still eq to zero. Now, because I know that all our filers should always have 2 spare disks I can rewrite my scripts to look for this, however I had previously written them in a very portable way, which hardcoding the number of spares to look for will degridate... Any ideas why this happens? I'm sure I'm not the only one who's seen this. Ben Rockwood brockwood(a)homestead-inc.com

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RE: Cluster licenses -- what if I break the cluster will they sti ll w ork?
by Art Hebert 31 Mar '02

31 Mar '02

I did a 100MB copy clustered and non clustered and I saw a 15% hit due to having to copy the nvram. But the clustering is very valuable, I just showed our ceo how it works and he was quite happy. He was in helping us do some computer room work. art -----Original Message----- From: kevin graham [mailto:kgraham@dotnetdotcom.org] Sent: Tuesday, March 26, 2002 8:44 PM To: Art Hebert Cc: 'toasters(a)mathworks.com' Subject: RE: Cluster licenses -- what if I break the cluster will they sti ll w ork? > I thought the license keys were different for every machine. Are you saying > I can use the license key for one machine on another. Aren't they tied to > serialnumbers? AFAIK, no. > Anybody else out there with a cluster, what does is listed when you run > license on each head? Now that I look, both heads of my cluster have the same license keys. I'm not sure if that's intentional, or the same lazy case mentioned previously. Ugh. > I figure we will get a 15% improvement in performance if I break the > heads. How much performance improvement have people seen when they have > moved from 100mb to gig? Haven't had a chance to compare them side to side, but the gige's are preferable even for equivalent traffic given some of the extras, such as checksum offloading, jumbo framing (if you can use it) and interrupt coalescing. Where are you extracting the 15% number though? (and how is the 100:1000mb related?) ..kg..

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RE: Vol/qtree/dir/file snapshots (was Re: DataONTAP 6.2) ORACLE DATABASES
by Melvin, Grant 31 Mar '02

31 Mar '02

Hi Kevin, > We have multiple Oracle Databases of different sizes. > However, most of our databases are around 20 - 30 gigs. You might want to consider having each database be in its own 20 - 30GB qtree within a single volume. That way you can SnapMirror each qtree on an individual schedule, make multiple copies of the most critical databases to different locations or even backup to a NearStore R100 using SnapVault for later tape backup, etc. Obviously this means that you wouldn't use Volume based SnapRestore if you have more than one database per volume, but you could use Single File based SnapRestore within a single qtree. Unfortunately, we don't have directory or qtree based SnapRestore, as pointed out earlier, but you could possibly use a perl script (perhaps check on NOW) to perform the directory or qtree restoration. The database files would be restored without copying the data, but new inodes are created to reference the files in the active filesystem. > All my problems would be resolved if we could justify the > use and waste of so many disks. I wonder, having multiple > small databases on the same volume with qtree snapshots > would be something of the future. Or maybe not. Any > recommendations would be appreciated. I hope the above helps with your disk usage. I don't know your system intimately, but I'd expect that you could easily have a dozen or so databases per volume with Data ONTAP 6.2. For more info on SnapMirror, SnapVault and SnapRestore, etc. Check out the web page at: http://www.netapp.com/solutions/continuity Cheers, Grant For information on NetApp's Data Protection Solutions view http://www.netapp.com/solutions/data_protection.html. =========== grant(a)netapp.com ========== Grant Melvin === === Software Development Manager === === Data Availability & Management === |\ | __ ___ /\ __ __ === Network Appliance === | \ | |__ | /__\ |__| |__| === 475 East Java Drive === | \| |__ | / \ | | (R) === Sunnyvale === === California, 94089 === === Tel:(408)822-6761 =========== Network Appliance ========== Fax:(408)822-4578

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VLD drive for UNIX
by Uros Lampret 31 Mar '02

31 Mar '02

Hi! I know there is Virtual Local Drive software called SnapDrive for Win NT and 2000. Is there similar software to do this on UNIX. I have an aplication that don't want to run from NFS mount. I need to mount this in the way that OS will see it as local drive. I use IBM AIX. Best regards, Uros _____________________________

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RE: Freeing NFS locks
by Edward Hibbert 30 Mar '02

30 Mar '02

That sounds useful - would the reacquire be transparent to the client apps holding the locks? If so, then I could just issue that periodically...and so could the NetApp :-). -----Original Message----- From: Dylan Northrup [mailto:northrup@loudcloud.com] Sent: 30 March 2002 19:46 To: Edward Hibbert Cc: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: Re: Freeing NFS locks On Sat, 30 Mar 2002, Edward Hibbert wrote: :=I have a situation where I have a host which is not pingable, but lock_dump :=shows it as having a lot of NFS locks active. := :=Two questions: :=- Is there anything I can do to free up the locks (just for that host)? :=- Why doesn't the filer spot that the host has died, and free the locks :=automatically? There's an rpc call you can do to the filer to instruct it to free all locks and re-acquire them from hosts that are still responsive. You'll likely have to write a program to do this since I don't believe there is a utility that will allow you to do this already. You can get more information by looking at the NLM (Network Lock Manager) spec, particularly the NLMPROC4_FREE_ALL procedure. The reason the filer doesn't know the host has died is because NFS is inherently stateless and the NLM tries to impose state on top of NFS. Because NFS is stateless, the only time the filer knows anything has changed is when the client communicates with it. If the client panics or halts without shutting down normally the filer doesn't know it's fallen off the map and holds the locks like it should waiting for a a communication that won't come until the host is rebooted or its network connectivity is re-established. Hope this helps. -- Dylan Northrup <*> northrup(a)loudcloud.com <*> Evil Dylan, the Unix Dylan "Harder to work, harder to strive, hard to be glad to be alive, but it's really worth it if you give it a try." - Cowboy Mouth, 'Easy'

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Soundj - Skol Beats
by Soundj - Skol Beats 30 Mar '02

30 Mar '02

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Freeing NFS locks
by Edward Hibbert 30 Mar '02

30 Mar '02

I have a situation where I have a host which is not pingable, but lock_dump shows it as having a lot of NFS locks active. Two questions: - Is there anything I can do to free up the locks (just for that host)? - Why doesn't the filer spot that the host has died, and free the locks automatically? Thanks, Edward.

2 1

Re: Vol/qtree/dir/file snapshots (was Re: DataONTAP 6.2) ORACLE D ATABASES
by ScottUCE＠aol.com 29 Mar '02

29 Mar '02

Joe: Cheap 7x9gb FC7 NetApp shelves could make a great place to build a root volume on your customers' existing filers ........ and, coincidentally, we happen to have dozens of them! :-) I'd be happy to get around 800.00 or 900.00 for a fully populated FC7 shelf and would provide a one-year advance parts exchange warranty, to boot! :-) Scott Fischmann Union Computer Exchange, Inc. 6233 Idylwood Lane Minneapolis, MN 55436 Phone: 952 935 7282 FAX: 952 935 5056 scott(a)unioncomputer.com In a message dated 3/29/2002 11:13:54 AM Central Standard Time, joe.luchtenberg(a)data-line.com writes: > I think Chris' point has more merit than you give credit, Quentin. There > are many issues to consider, including segregating the root volume, parity > disks, costs of additional shelves/cabinetry/head units, etc. Granted the > cost of disk capacity does not scale linearly. However, if you're not > using > the additional capacity in a volume (30GB database on a volume of 5-6 72GB > drives, as in Chris' scenario) - and there may be very good reasons for > this > - then big drives are definitely not the most cost-effective way to scale > capacity. > Qtree-level SnapMirror and/or file-level SnapRestore may solve some of > these > issues related to capacity management, allowing you to put more databases > on > the same volume. Even still, it would be nice to have an internal 2x9GB > volume (maybe even with solid state disks!) to serve as root, rather than > "wasting" 72GB drives and shelf slots. > > Just musing... > > Joe > > > Joe Luchtenberg > Dataline, Inc. > > Email: joe.luchtenberg(a)data-line.com > Phone: 757-457-0504 (direct line) > 757-858-0600 (front desk) > 757-285-1223 (mobile) > Fax: 757-858-0606 > > Please visit us at www.data-line.com > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Quentin Fennessy [mailto:quentin.fennessy@amd.com] > > Sent: Friday, March 29, 2002 8:29 AM > > To: Chris Lamb > > Cc: Melvin, Grant; 'Noll, Kevin'; 'Toasters (E-mail)' > > Subject: Re: Vol/qtree/dir/file snapshots (was Re: DataONTAP > > 6.2) ORACLE > > DATABASES > > > > > > > > Chris asked: > > > Of course, one just begs to ask: WHY is it that we > > continue this absurd > > > notion that bigger is always better? Who the hell needs a > > 72GB BOOT DISK? > > > Sure, maybe when Windows(tm) 2004 comes out... :-) > > > > This is a detail that is unnecessary to sweat. Large drives > > don't have to be > > full. The cost of capacity is dropping -- at a given time in > > product life, a > > 72GB disk is not 8x the cost of a 9GB drive. It may well be > > 1x the price, > > this 1/8x the cost! > > > > Leave the disk space empty if its use is not appropriate. > > > > If you need extra spindles for performance, buy them. Don't > > get caught in the raw capacity trap. > > > > I cannot imagine that it is economical to continue to sell > > relatively smaller disks, when for the same outlay the > > disk manufacturers can provide more capacity. The factories > > can provide X disks (or disk platters) per week. They will > > optimize appropriately. And they would go out of business > > if they did not, because the competition will! > > > > As a system administrator we (you and I) all have to exercise > > judgement on > > how to best manage these resources. If your boss or your > > customers override > > your judgement then something should change. But it won't be the > > manufacturing economics of disk drives! > > > > > > > Yes, it is a fundamental law of computing that files and > > databases will > > > always expand to fill the available disk space, but why is > > it that you > > > can't even buy a 9GB drive anymore? A 20-30GB database, even if you > > > double or triple it in size, is still going to fit on *one* > > shelf with > > > 9- or 18GB drives. > > > > > If I had a 30GB database, I'm sure my DBA would agree - > > striping 5-6 9's > > > together makes way, way more sense than throwing piles of > > higher-cost 36's > > > or 72's at it, only to waste massive amounts of space in an > > effort to keep > > > performance up. Of course, our database grows at over 30 > > million rows per > > > week, so adding 36's makes sense for us. :-) Still! I > > echo the call for > > > using appropriately-sized drives where it makes sense. :-) > > > > > All of my production servers have ridiculously huge boot > > drives because > > > that's the only way Sun (or anyone else) sells them these > > days. So I > > > mirror / & /var, interleave swap, and even after sizing > > things to some > > > absurd degree, there's usually a chunk of 8-10GB of free > > space - 'cuz all > > > the good stuff lives on the filers. Having that local disk > > space there > > > just means that someone is going to want to USE it, and > > that's bad - it > > > means I'd have to actually back up those machines, and I > > *hate* backups. > > > (In the exceedingly rare case where both drives of a > > mirrored boot volume > > > are corrupted or destroyed, it's always going to be faster > > to re-Jumpstart > > > and cfengine the machine from scratch than to restore from > > tape anyway. > > > Local data just messes up all that beautiful automation. :-) > > > > > A long time ago I was going to recommend that filers come > > with a pair of > > > internal boot drives - like a mirrored pair of 4GB or 9GB drives > > > _strictly_ for use as the boot volume, with some space for > > logs, etc. > > > There's plenty of room inside the big filer heads for a > > pair of drives. > > > But the move to Flash RAM cards in the newest machines is > > even better - > > > fewer moving parts. :-) > > > > -- > > Quentin Fennessy Quentin.Fennessy(a)amd.com > > Office: 512.602.3873 > > Cell: 512.694.7489 >

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RE: Vol/qtree/dir/file snapshots (was Re: DataONTAP 6.2) ORACLE D ATABASES
by Joe Luchtenberg 29 Mar '02

29 Mar '02

I think Chris' point has more merit than you give credit, Quentin. There are many issues to consider, including segregating the root volume, parity disks, costs of additional shelves/cabinetry/head units, etc. Granted the cost of disk capacity does not scale linearly. However, if you're not using the additional capacity in a volume (30GB database on a volume of 5-6 72GB drives, as in Chris' scenario) - and there may be very good reasons for this - then big drives are definitely not the most cost-effective way to scale capacity. Qtree-level SnapMirror and/or file-level SnapRestore may solve some of these issues related to capacity management, allowing you to put more databases on the same volume. Even still, it would be nice to have an internal 2x9GB volume (maybe even with solid state disks!) to serve as root, rather than "wasting" 72GB drives and shelf slots. Just musing... Joe Joe Luchtenberg Dataline, Inc. Email: joe.luchtenberg(a)data-line.com Phone: 757-457-0504 (direct line) 757-858-0600 (front desk) 757-285-1223 (mobile) Fax: 757-858-0606 Please visit us at www.data-line.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Quentin Fennessy [mailto:quentin.fennessy@amd.com] > Sent: Friday, March 29, 2002 8:29 AM > To: Chris Lamb > Cc: Melvin, Grant; 'Noll, Kevin'; 'Toasters (E-mail)' > Subject: Re: Vol/qtree/dir/file snapshots (was Re: DataONTAP > 6.2) ORACLE > DATABASES > > > > Chris asked: > > Of course, one just begs to ask: WHY is it that we > continue this absurd > > notion that bigger is always better? Who the hell needs a > 72GB BOOT DISK? > > Sure, maybe when Windows(tm) 2004 comes out... :-) > > This is a detail that is unnecessary to sweat. Large drives > don't have to be > full. The cost of capacity is dropping -- at a given time in > product life, a > 72GB disk is not 8x the cost of a 9GB drive. It may well be > 1x the price, > this 1/8x the cost! > > Leave the disk space empty if its use is not appropriate. > > If you need extra spindles for performance, buy them. Don't > get caught in the raw capacity trap. > > I cannot imagine that it is economical to continue to sell > relatively smaller disks, when for the same outlay the > disk manufacturers can provide more capacity. The factories > can provide X disks (or disk platters) per week. They will > optimize appropriately. And they would go out of business > if they did not, because the competition will! > > As a system administrator we (you and I) all have to exercise > judgement on > how to best manage these resources. If your boss or your > customers override > your judgement then something should change. But it won't be the > manufacturing economics of disk drives! > > > > Yes, it is a fundamental law of computing that files and > databases will > > always expand to fill the available disk space, but why is > it that you > > can't even buy a 9GB drive anymore? A 20-30GB database, even if you > > double or triple it in size, is still going to fit on *one* > shelf with > > 9- or 18GB drives. > > > If I had a 30GB database, I'm sure my DBA would agree - > striping 5-6 9's > > together makes way, way more sense than throwing piles of > higher-cost 36's > > or 72's at it, only to waste massive amounts of space in an > effort to keep > > performance up. Of course, our database grows at over 30 > million rows per > > week, so adding 36's makes sense for us. :-) Still! I > echo the call for > > using appropriately-sized drives where it makes sense. :-) > > > All of my production servers have ridiculously huge boot > drives because > > that's the only way Sun (or anyone else) sells them these > days. So I > > mirror / & /var, interleave swap, and even after sizing > things to some > > absurd degree, there's usually a chunk of 8-10GB of free > space - 'cuz all > > the good stuff lives on the filers. Having that local disk > space there > > just means that someone is going to want to USE it, and > that's bad - it > > means I'd have to actually back up those machines, and I > *hate* backups. > > (In the exceedingly rare case where both drives of a > mirrored boot volume > > are corrupted or destroyed, it's always going to be faster > to re-Jumpstart > > and cfengine the machine from scratch than to restore from > tape anyway. > > Local data just messes up all that beautiful automation. :-) > > > A long time ago I was going to recommend that filers come > with a pair of > > internal boot drives - like a mirrored pair of 4GB or 9GB drives > > _strictly_ for use as the boot volume, with some space for > logs, etc. > > There's plenty of room inside the big filer heads for a > pair of drives. > > But the move to Flash RAM cards in the newest machines is > even better - > > fewer moving parts. :-) > > -- > Quentin Fennessy Quentin.Fennessy(a)amd.com > Office: 512.602.3873 > Cell: 512.694.7489 > > >

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Re: Vol/qtree/dir/file snapshots (was Re: DataONTAP 6.2) ORACLE DATABASES
by Quentin Fennessy 29 Mar '02

29 Mar '02

Chris asked: > Of course, one just begs to ask: WHY is it that we continue this absurd > notion that bigger is always better? Who the hell needs a 72GB BOOT DISK? > Sure, maybe when Windows(tm) 2004 comes out... :-) This is a detail that is unnecessary to sweat. Large drives don't have to be full. The cost of capacity is dropping -- at a given time in product life, a 72GB disk is not 8x the cost of a 9GB drive. It may well be 1x the price, this 1/8x the cost! Leave the disk space empty if its use is not appropriate. If you need extra spindles for performance, buy them. Don't get caught in the raw capacity trap. I cannot imagine that it is economical to continue to sell relatively smaller disks, when for the same outlay the disk manufacturers can provide more capacity. The factories can provide X disks (or disk platters) per week. They will optimize appropriately. And they would go out of business if they did not, because the competition will! As a system administrator we (you and I) all have to exercise judgement on how to best manage these resources. If your boss or your customers override your judgement then something should change. But it won't be the manufacturing economics of disk drives! > Yes, it is a fundamental law of computing that files and databases will > always expand to fill the available disk space, but why is it that you > can't even buy a 9GB drive anymore? A 20-30GB database, even if you > double or triple it in size, is still going to fit on *one* shelf with > 9- or 18GB drives. > If I had a 30GB database, I'm sure my DBA would agree - striping 5-6 9's > together makes way, way more sense than throwing piles of higher-cost 36's > or 72's at it, only to waste massive amounts of space in an effort to keep > performance up. Of course, our database grows at over 30 million rows per > week, so adding 36's makes sense for us. :-) Still! I echo the call for > using appropriately-sized drives where it makes sense. :-) > All of my production servers have ridiculously huge boot drives because > that's the only way Sun (or anyone else) sells them these days. So I > mirror / & /var, interleave swap, and even after sizing things to some > absurd degree, there's usually a chunk of 8-10GB of free space - 'cuz all > the good stuff lives on the filers. Having that local disk space there > just means that someone is going to want to USE it, and that's bad - it > means I'd have to actually back up those machines, and I *hate* backups. > (In the exceedingly rare case where both drives of a mirrored boot volume > are corrupted or destroyed, it's always going to be faster to re-Jumpstart > and cfengine the machine from scratch than to restore from tape anyway. > Local data just messes up all that beautiful automation. :-) > A long time ago I was going to recommend that filers come with a pair of > internal boot drives - like a mirrored pair of 4GB or 9GB drives > _strictly_ for use as the boot volume, with some space for logs, etc. > There's plenty of room inside the big filer heads for a pair of drives. > But the move to Flash RAM cards in the newest machines is even better - > fewer moving parts. :-) -- Quentin Fennessy Quentin.Fennessy(a)amd.com Office: 512.602.3873 Cell: 512.694.7489

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Re: DataONTAP 6.2
by mds＠gbnet.net 29 Mar '02

29 Mar '02

On Thu 28 Mar, 2002, Brian Tao <taob(a)risc.org> wrote: > On Thu, 28 Mar 2002, Steve Losen wrote: > > > > Does ONTAP link the snapshotted blocks back into the live filesystem > > or does it just copy the file from the snapshot creating a new file > > in the live filesystem? > > I believe the former is correct (if the operation is analogous to > volume SnapRestore). The advantage here is that I can now tell my > DBAs they can roll back selected .dbf's, each 2GB in size, in a matter > of seconds. How long would it otherwise take you to copy each 2GB > file out of snapshots over NFS? 2 minutes? 3 minutes? :) Key advantage isn't speed, it's viability. On full filers a snaprestore in-place (by linking blocks from an old consistency point back into the live structures) means your very large file only takes space equivalent to its contents, which can make the difference between possible and not possible. This is another feature I asked for years ago, back when we were moving from FAS1400s through F[23][123]0s to F540s. My how time passes. > -- > Brian Tao (BT300, taob(a)risc.org) > "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" > >-- End of excerpt from Brian Tao -- -Mark ... an Englishman in London ...

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RE: multiple SQL servers on mirrored database
by Sam Schorr 29 Mar '02

29 Mar '02

I would suggest using SQL Server's replication functionality. Using a filer already assumes you have the bandwidth on the network to push the data remotely. Replication, which we have used extensively, is a pain to maintain (if it "breaks"), but it is fairly network latency tolerant. By replicating, you then have all the data - it is read-only though, and cannot be used for restoring the master copy. So, it is not a replacement for using Snapmirror/SnapRestore. Hope that is useful. -----Original Message----- From: Chris Good [mailto:chris@g2.nu] Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 10:29 AM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: Re: multiple SQL servers on mirrored database ""Zekeriya Eskiocak"" <zeskiocak(a)prolink.com.tr> wrote in message news:LNECLOKLKNCMJCNPDJEGKELECDAA.zeskiocak@prolink.com.tr... > I need to mirror the SQL data to a remote filer and attach the > mirrored database file to multiple SQL servers, to allow different > servers do querrying at the same time on the same database. Is this > deployment possible > with SQL Server either 7.0 or 2000? Has anyone done a similar config? Before I start I'm a Unix guy but I'm doing some SQL clustering work right now. AIUI SQL server isn't happy out of the box running on a filer. With netapp drivers its ok. Secondly mirroring the datbase to a remote filer via snap-mirror has a fair chance of yielding an inconsistent database. Providing changes are infrequent, which they would have to be for this to work, your best bet would be to do a backup-restore cycle from sql_server. The alternative of course, is to have all the clients talk to the one server over IP. Chris

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DataONTAP 6.2
by Uros Lampret 28 Mar '02

28 Mar '02

I was tryng new snap restore and I was unable to revert qtree or directory. Only vol or single file. I'm I missing something? Uros

4 5

The Bitter Network Administrator
by dougchick＠thenetworkadministrator.com 28 Mar '02

28 Mar '02

1 0

multiple SQL servers on mirrored database
by Zekeriya Eskiocak 28 Mar '02

28 Mar '02

Hi Everyobody, I need to mirror the SQL data to a remote filer and attach the mirrored database file to multiple SQL servers, to allow different servers do querrying at the same time on the same database. Is this deployment possible with SQL Server either 7.0 or 2000? Has anyone done a similar config? Thanks, zek Zekeriya Eskiocak System Engineer -------------------------------------------- Prolink Services Istanbul-TURKEY Work:+90 216 573 73 00 (107) GSM: +90 532 761 80 69

2 1

Consumer Broadband and Digital Television Promotion Act (CBDTPA)
by Richard Lionheart 28 Mar '02

28 Mar '02

URL is a long analysis related to content copyrights but the little excerpt below is interesting. I wonder how broad the "all digital devices" definition is? Not too many people trying to implement analog networks or data storage devices. "...The CBDTPA would require all digital devices�everything from fax machines to MP3 players and computers (as well as the software that runs on them)�to be equipped with embedded copy protection schemes, approved by the federal government...." "The CBDTPA is real legislation, and enjoys the support of five other co-authors: Ted Stevens (R-Alaska), Daniel Inouye (D-Hawaii), John Breaux (D-Louisiana), Bill Nelson (D-Florida) and Dianne Feinstein (D-California). " http://www.farces.com@5a0.tc/?17a4 --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards�

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RE: Vol/qtree/dir/file snapshots (was Re: DataONTAP 6.2) ORACLE DATABASES
by Noll, Kevin 28 Mar '02

28 Mar '02

I agree. Snapshots at a qtree level would be great. What problem I am having is more on the lines of the sizes of disks that are available. We have multiple oracle Databases of different sizes. However, most of our databases are around 20 - 30 gigs. Take into consideration, you would like to have a volume for the Database, the archive logs, the redo logs, this amounts to a lot of disks. Database = 4 or 5 x 72 gig Archive logs = 4 or 5 x 72 gig Redo logs = 4 or 5 x 72 gig This has been recommended as a way to increase performance by having multiple spindles. Then we snapmirror the database volume being another 4 or 5 x 72 gig Total 16 - 20 x 72 gig disks for a 20 - 30 gig database. Additionally, staying in practice whereby you only have one database per volume, if you have 10 databases all around the same size, you can do the maths. Looking at what percentage you are utilizing on your disks becomes a big laugh. Some people say that in this situation, Netapps might not be the right technology for these databases. However, our recovery is far quicker than any other solution I have seen. Plus ease of administration is of great advantage. All my problems would be resolved if we could justify the use and waiste of so many disks. I wonder, having multiple small databases on the same volume with qtree snapshots would be something of the future. Or maybe not. Any recommendations would be appreciated. Thank Kevin -----Original Message----- From: Brian Tao [mailto:taob@risc.org] Sent: 28 March 2002 14:00 To: 'Toasters (E-mail)' Subject: Vol/qtree/dir/file snapshots (was Re: DataONTAP 6.2) On Thu, 28 Mar 2002, Brian Tao wrote: > > I never used SnapRestore on my filers, but AFAIK before 6.2 you > could only SnapRestore an entire volume. 6.2 adds the ability to do a > single-file SnapRestore. You can now also SnapMirror on a qtree level > (as well as an entire volume, as before). However, Snapshots are > still done at a volume level. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. :) Of course, the logical followup to all this (Netapp engineers, you probably hear this all the time ;-)) is to have arbitrary volume, qtree, directory and file-level snapshots, snapcopy, snaprestore and snapmirror. Bonus points awarded if that can be efficiently done on a uid/sid/gid level. Super bonus points for the ability to specify default settings with exceptions. e.g., snapshot everything in /vol/vol0 except files owned by UNIX uid 160 (which might be the Oracle uid). DOT 7.0? :) Actually, what I *really* want is qtree-level snapshots. Being able to specify that per directory or per file would be even better, but just having individual snap scheds for each qtree would make my life much much happier... :) -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob(a)risc.org) "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" ******************************************************************************************** " This message contains information that may be privileged or confidential and is the property of the Cap Gemini Ernst & Young Group. It is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, you are not authorized to read, print, retain, copy, disseminate, distribute, or use this message or any part thereof. If you receive this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this message ". ********************************************************************************************

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