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13531 discussions

A-SIS questions
by Page, Jeremy 02 Nov '07

02 Nov '07

I have read some of the info on how A-SIS works but I have a couple of questions: 1) Assuming an average compression rate (say /home with random docs in it) how much of a performance hit does it impose 2) Does it change how much data is sent over the wire when you use SnapMirror/SnapVault? I.e. if I get 30% compression on a 1 gig snapshot do I send 1 gig or 700 mb to update my target? Oh, and for the folks who helped earlier, we are moving our Oracle and ESX systems to NetApp, the pSeries will be fibre connected, at least at first but the ESX stuff is all going on NFS. ~Jeremy This message (including any attachments) contains confidential and/or proprietary information intended only for the addressee. Any unauthorized disclosure, copying, distribution or reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited and may constitute a violation of law. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately by responding to this e-mail, and delete the message from your system. If you have any questions about this e-mail please notify the sender immediately.

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RE: VMWare CIFS driver
by Alan McLachlan 01 Nov '07

01 Nov '07

Hi Peter, I can't disagree with anything you have said, particularly re. failover (see my post that followed). Incidentally though, it was an internal Network Appliance whitepaper that alerted me to the possibility of using CIFS for .vmdk files. See section 9.1.3 on page 58 of TR-3505i. I understand that being an internal paper I shouldn't be mentioning it here, and the published version of that paper on A-SIS eliminates the discussion of VMWare, I suspect because support issues haven't been nailed down yet. Still waiting on feedback from my contact in VMWare, will post when I hear something. There are other reasons beside statefulness of CIFS connections to prefer NFS (performance, etc.), but that's the main issue. I only mentioned it so as not to exclude it as a technical possibility, my followup posts were intended to stop anyone getting too excited about it at this stage. Also even if VMWare were to build it into the kernal, I'd still be pushing clients to pay for an NFS licence instead. The issue here is the cost of the NFS licence, which can be considered high for some Windows-only shops. regards, Alan. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Learmonth, Peter" <Peter.Learmonth(a)netapp.com> > To: "Alan McLachlan" <alanmac(a)technologist.com>, toasters(a)mathworks.com > Subject: RE: VMWare CIFS driver > Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 19:10:27 -0700 > > > Hi Alan > Would you happen to have a URL instead of a IP address? > > Given that this comes from an unidentifiable web site, I highly doubt > this will get any support from VMware, and I can pretty much guarantee > that this will get no support from NetApp. > > More on the RPM itself... > It contains only an object module, which appears to install in the > service console Linux, not the VMKernel, although I could be wrong on > that. > > The version on that RPM matches the ESX 3.0.1 COS Linux kernel version. > > Besides, while I think NFS is great for VMware, I think CIFS is > horrible. People who have tried it with VMware server or GSX have had > some surprises when the storage fails over and CIFS drops the > connections. It doesn't make any difference whose CIFS server you're > using. I personally don't think VMware should waste any time developing > an ESX kernel client. > > Thanks anyway. > > Peter > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Alan McLachlan [mailto:alanmac@technologist.com] > Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2007 4:24 PM > To: toasters(a)mathworks.com > Subject: VMWare CIFS driver > > > Hi, > > Find it here: > > http://89.105.41.70/sites/esx/Lists/Posts/Post.aspx?ID=1 > > Enjoy! > > regards, > > Alan McLachlan > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Davies,Matt" <MDAVIES(a)generalatlantic.com> > > To: Peter.Learmonth(a)netapp.com, alanmac(a)technologist.com, > > toasters(a)mathworks.com > > Subject: RE: VMware / A-SIS > > Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 21:48:16 -0000 > > > > > > I was about to ask the same question..... > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com <owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com> > > To: Alan McLachlan <alanmac(a)technologist.com>; > > toasters(a)mathworks.com <toasters(a)mathworks.com> > > Sent: Sun Oct 28 21:09:20 2007 > > Subject: RE: VMware / A-SIS > > > > Ummmm.... > > What ESX CIFS driver? > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Alan McLachlan [mailto:alanmac@technologist.com] > > Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2007 8:26 AM > > To: toasters(a)mathworks.com > > Subject: VMware / A-SIS > > > > Hi Vaughn, > > > > For small environments on a budget where the cost of additional > > licenses is an issue, you can use RDM's over iSCSI or FCP for > > both data LUN's _and_ the VM OS images. You still need VMDK > > pointer files to enable vmotion. > > > > By using RDM's for the VM images you can use lun cloning for R/W > > snapshots within the same FlexVol, without paying for a FlexClone > > license and achieve a reasonable level of deduplication without > > paying > > > for an A-SIS licence. i.e. create "golden images" as source LUNs > > then use lun clones for the prod, dev, test and backup images of > > the VM's. > > > > However, for larger environments using vmdk's on NAS from NFS > > exports or CIFS shares for the VM images is a far more scalable > > and manageable > > > solution as long as you're happy to pay for A-SIS to manage > > deduplication. I still wouldn't be putting data volumes inside > > the vmdk's though. > > > > (Yes, you can use CIFS for vmdk's in ESX. Not as ideal as NFS for > > a whole bunch of reasons, but it works via the VMWare ESX CIFS > > driver and useful if you have to have CIFS for file server > > consolidation and don't want to pay for NFS licencing as well). > > > > Either way, storing your application data in either RDM LUN's or > > as direct NAS shares makes managing snapshots for dev/test copies > > and online backups of the production data much simpler to manage. > > Putting data inside vmdk's limits your functionality particularly > > for backups. > > > > MSCS requires an RDM for the quorum disk, but you can still use a > > NAS share for the data if your data profile and application > > characteristics indicate that it makes more sense to do that than > > use an RDM for the data. > > > > regards, > > > > Alan McLachlan. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com on behalf of M. Vaughn Stewart > > Sent: Sun 10/28/2007 8:07 AM > > To: Jack Lyons > > Cc: Page, Jeremy; toasters(a)mathworks.com > > Subject: Re: A-SIS questions > > > > FlexClone will clone a datastore, for VM level cloning granularity you > > > gonna have to wait I think something is just around the corner. > > > > As for MSCS you need RDMs as VMDKs are not supported with MSCS > > > > RDMs can be either FCP or iSCSI > > VMDKs can be on NFS or VMFS (which is over FCP or iSCSI) > > > > > > > > -- > > Want an e-mail address like mine? > > Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com! > > > > > > > > > > _____________________________________________________________ > > This e-mail (including all attachments) is confidential and may be > privileged. > > It is for the exclusive use of the addressee only. If you are not > > the addressee, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of > > this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received > > this communication in error, please erase all copies of the > > message and its > > > attachments and notify us immediately at help(a)generalatlantic.com > > <mailto:help@generalatlantic.com>. Thank You. > > > > > > -- > Want an e-mail address like mine? > Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com! > -- Want an e-mail address like mine? Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com!

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RE: RE: Head upgrade 3020 to 3040
by Darish Rajanayagam 30 Oct '07

30 Oct '07

Thanks Peter and everyone else that replied. I will share my procedure/experience once our head-upgrade is completed. Darish. From: Learmonth, Peter [mailto:Peter.Learmonth@netapp.com] Sent: October-24-07 1:38 PM To: Darish Rajanayagam Subject: RE: Head upgrade 3020 to 3040 IQNs will stay the same. LUN S/Ns will change. You should keep a copy of lun show -v from before the upgrade, then set them S/N back the way they were after the swap. lun offline <lun path> lun serial <lun path> <serial number> lun online (Do this before bringing servers back up) This is especially important for VMware in order to avoid resignaturing VMFS and having to re-register VMs. IP addresses will stay the same. Not sure about MAC addrs, but I don't think that matters. Peter ________________________________ From: Darish Rajanayagam [mailto:darishr@softcom.biz] Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 9:41 AM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: Head upgrade 3020 to 3040 Greeting Toasters, We will soon be upgrading our FAS3020 filer to a FAS3040. The two main protocols the filer is used for is NFS and ISCSI. I am concerned of the implications this upgrade will have on the iscsi network. Has anyone done this type of migration and can share their experience with me? Will upgrading the head unit impact iscsi iqns, lun serial numbers etc? Thanks, Darish.

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Measuring Network Throughput
by Buerger, Andreas 29 Oct '07

29 Oct '07

Hi Toasters, I've got the following question. I'm used to measure the dedicated network throughput between two linux systems with the following method: # Target: TARGET:/>>> netcat -l -p 2000 > /dev/null # Source: SOURCE:/>>> dd if=/dev/zero bs=1M count=1024 | netcat TARGET 2000 1024+0 records in 1024+0 records out 1073741824 bytes (1,1 GB) copied, 9,43544 s, 114 MB/s This simple usage of netcat just provides me the theoretical throughput in our gigabit lan between these two servers. -- My question is, if anybody has an idea how to adopt such a method to a filer? Is there any possibility to measure the theoretical network throughput without producing any disk io's? Best regards Andreas ----------------------------------------- Wincor Nixdorf Int. GmbH WN CIO4 Computing & Storage Heinz-Nixdorf-Ring 1 33106 Paderborn Phone: +49 5251 693 4215 Fax: +49 5251 693 4200 Mail: andreas.buerger(a)wincor-nixdorf.com -----------------------------------------

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VMWare CIFS driver
by Alan McLachlan 29 Oct '07

29 Oct '07

Hi, Find it here: http://89.105.41.70/sites/esx/Lists/Posts/Post.aspx?ID=1 Enjoy! regards, Alan McLachlan > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Davies,Matt" <MDAVIES(a)generalatlantic.com> > To: Peter.Learmonth(a)netapp.com, alanmac(a)technologist.com, toasters(a)mathworks.com > Subject: RE: VMware / A-SIS > Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 21:48:16 -0000 > > > I was about to ask the same question..... > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com <owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com> > To: Alan McLachlan <alanmac(a)technologist.com>; > toasters(a)mathworks.com <toasters(a)mathworks.com> > Sent: Sun Oct 28 21:09:20 2007 > Subject: RE: VMware / A-SIS > > Ummmm.... > What ESX CIFS driver? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Alan McLachlan [mailto:alanmac@technologist.com] > Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2007 8:26 AM > To: toasters(a)mathworks.com > Subject: VMware / A-SIS > > Hi Vaughn, > > For small environments on a budget where the cost of additional licenses > is an issue, you can use RDM's over iSCSI or FCP for both data LUN's > _and_ the VM OS images. You still need VMDK pointer files to enable > vmotion. > > By using RDM's for the VM images you can use lun cloning for R/W > snapshots within the same FlexVol, without paying for a FlexClone > license and achieve a reasonable level of deduplication without paying > for an A-SIS licence. i.e. create "golden images" as source LUNs then > use lun clones for the prod, dev, test and backup images of the VM's. > > However, for larger environments using vmdk's on NAS from NFS exports or > CIFS shares for the VM images is a far more scalable and manageable > solution as long as you're happy to pay for A-SIS to manage > deduplication. I still wouldn't be putting data volumes inside the > vmdk's though. > > (Yes, you can use CIFS for vmdk's in ESX. Not as ideal as NFS for a > whole bunch of reasons, but it works via the VMWare ESX CIFS driver and > useful if you have to have CIFS for file server consolidation and don't > want to pay for NFS licencing as well). > > Either way, storing your application data in either RDM LUN's or as > direct NAS shares makes managing snapshots for dev/test copies and > online backups of the production data much simpler to manage. Putting > data inside vmdk's limits your functionality particularly for backups. > > MSCS requires an RDM for the quorum disk, but you can still use a NAS > share for the data if your data profile and application characteristics > indicate that it makes more sense to do that than use an RDM for the > data. > > regards, > > Alan McLachlan. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com on behalf of M. Vaughn Stewart > Sent: Sun 10/28/2007 8:07 AM > To: Jack Lyons > Cc: Page, Jeremy; toasters(a)mathworks.com > Subject: Re: A-SIS questions > > FlexClone will clone a datastore, for VM level cloning granularity you > gonna have to wait I think something is just around the corner. > > As for MSCS you need RDMs as VMDKs are not supported with MSCS > > RDMs can be either FCP or iSCSI > VMDKs can be on NFS or VMFS (which is over FCP or iSCSI) > > > > -- > Want an e-mail address like mine? > Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com! > > > > > _____________________________________________________________ > This e-mail (including all attachments) is confidential and may be privileged. > It is for the exclusive use of the addressee only. If you are not > the addressee, > you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this > communication is strictly > prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please erase all > copies of the message and its attachments and notify us immediately at > help(a)generalatlantic.com <mailto:help@generalatlantic.com>. Thank You. > -- Want an e-mail address like mine? Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com!

3 2

VMWare CIFS driver
by Alan McLachlan 29 Oct '07

29 Oct '07

Hi, Following previous post - I have asked a EMC|VMWare contact about whether using the SMB/CIFS driver referred to in my previous post is supported, is unsupported but won't affect support status on the installation, or is unsupported and also breaks support status. When I have some feedback I'll post it. As previously stated, NFS is better for a whole range of reasons but some people may wish to put vmdk's on a CIFS share to save paying for an NFS licence. My only real concern with this would be the state of the CIFS connection after failover in a cluster. regards, Alan McLachlan. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Davies,Matt" <MDAVIES(a)generalatlantic.com> > To: Peter.Learmonth(a)netapp.com, alanmac(a)technologist.com, toasters(a)mathworks.com > Subject: RE: VMware / A-SIS > Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 21:48:16 -0000 > > > I was about to ask the same question..... > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com <owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com> > To: Alan McLachlan <alanmac(a)technologist.com>; > toasters(a)mathworks.com <toasters(a)mathworks.com> > Sent: Sun Oct 28 21:09:20 2007 > Subject: RE: VMware / A-SIS > > Ummmm.... > What ESX CIFS driver? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Alan McLachlan [mailto:alanmac@technologist.com] > Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2007 8:26 AM > To: toasters(a)mathworks.com > Subject: VMware / A-SIS > > Hi Vaughn, > > For small environments on a budget where the cost of additional licenses > is an issue, you can use RDM's over iSCSI or FCP for both data LUN's > _and_ the VM OS images. You still need VMDK pointer files to enable > vmotion. > > By using RDM's for the VM images you can use lun cloning for R/W > snapshots within the same FlexVol, without paying for a FlexClone > license and achieve a reasonable level of deduplication without paying > for an A-SIS licence. i.e. create "golden images" as source LUNs then > use lun clones for the prod, dev, test and backup images of the VM's. > > However, for larger environments using vmdk's on NAS from NFS exports or > CIFS shares for the VM images is a far more scalable and manageable > solution as long as you're happy to pay for A-SIS to manage > deduplication. I still wouldn't be putting data volumes inside the > vmdk's though. > > (Yes, you can use CIFS for vmdk's in ESX. Not as ideal as NFS for a > whole bunch of reasons, but it works via the VMWare ESX CIFS driver and > useful if you have to have CIFS for file server consolidation and don't > want to pay for NFS licencing as well). > > Either way, storing your application data in either RDM LUN's or as > direct NAS shares makes managing snapshots for dev/test copies and > online backups of the production data much simpler to manage. Putting > data inside vmdk's limits your functionality particularly for backups. > > MSCS requires an RDM for the quorum disk, but you can still use a NAS > share for the data if your data profile and application characteristics > indicate that it makes more sense to do that than use an RDM for the > data. > > regards, > > Alan McLachlan. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com on behalf of M. Vaughn Stewart > Sent: Sun 10/28/2007 8:07 AM > To: Jack Lyons > Cc: Page, Jeremy; toasters(a)mathworks.com > Subject: Re: A-SIS questions > > FlexClone will clone a datastore, for VM level cloning granularity you > gonna have to wait I think something is just around the corner. > > As for MSCS you need RDMs as VMDKs are not supported with MSCS > > RDMs can be either FCP or iSCSI > VMDKs can be on NFS or VMFS (which is over FCP or iSCSI) > > > > -- > Want an e-mail address like mine? > Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com! > > > > > _____________________________________________________________ > This e-mail (including all attachments) is confidential and may be privileged. > It is for the exclusive use of the addressee only. If you are not > the addressee, > you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this > communication is strictly > prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please erase all > copies of the message and its attachments and notify us immediately at > help(a)generalatlantic.com <mailto:help@generalatlantic.com>. Thank You. > -- Want an e-mail address like mine? Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com!

2 1

RE: VMware / A-SIS
by Davies,Matt 28 Oct '07

28 Oct '07

I was about to ask the same question..... -----Original Message----- From: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com <owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com> To: Alan McLachlan <alanmac(a)technologist.com>; toasters(a)mathworks.com <toasters(a)mathworks.com> Sent: Sun Oct 28 21:09:20 2007 Subject: RE: VMware / A-SIS Ummmm.... What ESX CIFS driver? -----Original Message----- From: Alan McLachlan [mailto:alanmac@technologist.com] Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2007 8:26 AM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: VMware / A-SIS Hi Vaughn, For small environments on a budget where the cost of additional licenses is an issue, you can use RDM's over iSCSI or FCP for both data LUN's _and_ the VM OS images. You still need VMDK pointer files to enable vmotion. By using RDM's for the VM images you can use lun cloning for R/W snapshots within the same FlexVol, without paying for a FlexClone license and achieve a reasonable level of deduplication without paying for an A-SIS licence. i.e. create "golden images" as source LUNs then use lun clones for the prod, dev, test and backup images of the VM's. However, for larger environments using vmdk's on NAS from NFS exports or CIFS shares for the VM images is a far more scalable and manageable solution as long as you're happy to pay for A-SIS to manage deduplication. I still wouldn't be putting data volumes inside the vmdk's though. (Yes, you can use CIFS for vmdk's in ESX. Not as ideal as NFS for a whole bunch of reasons, but it works via the VMWare ESX CIFS driver and useful if you have to have CIFS for file server consolidation and don't want to pay for NFS licencing as well). Either way, storing your application data in either RDM LUN's or as direct NAS shares makes managing snapshots for dev/test copies and online backups of the production data much simpler to manage. Putting data inside vmdk's limits your functionality particularly for backups. MSCS requires an RDM for the quorum disk, but you can still use a NAS share for the data if your data profile and application characteristics indicate that it makes more sense to do that than use an RDM for the data. regards, Alan McLachlan. -----Original Message----- From: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com on behalf of M. Vaughn Stewart Sent: Sun 10/28/2007 8:07 AM To: Jack Lyons Cc: Page, Jeremy; toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: Re: A-SIS questions FlexClone will clone a datastore, for VM level cloning granularity you gonna have to wait I think something is just around the corner. As for MSCS you need RDMs as VMDKs are not supported with MSCS RDMs can be either FCP or iSCSI VMDKs can be on NFS or VMFS (which is over FCP or iSCSI) -- Want an e-mail address like mine? Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com! _____________________________________________________________ This e-mail (including all attachments) is confidential and may be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the addressee only. If you are not the addressee, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please erase all copies of the message and its attachments and notify us immediately at help(a)generalatlantic.com <mailto:help@generalatlantic.com>. Thank You.

1 0

VMware / A-SIS
by Alan McLachlan 28 Oct '07

28 Oct '07

Hi Vaughn, For small environments on a budget where the cost of additional licenses is an issue, you can use RDM's over iSCSI or FCP for both data LUN's _and_ the VM OS images. You still need VMDK pointer files to enable vmotion. By using RDM's for the VM images you can use lun cloning for R/W snapshots within the same FlexVol, without paying for a FlexClone license and achieve a reasonable level of deduplication without paying for an A-SIS licence. i.e. create "golden images" as source LUNs then use lun clones for the prod, dev, test and backup images of the VM's. However, for larger environments using vmdk's on NAS from NFS exports or CIFS shares for the VM images is a far more scalable and manageable solution as long as you're happy to pay for A-SIS to manage deduplication. I still wouldn't be putting data volumes inside the vmdk's though. (Yes, you can use CIFS for vmdk's in ESX. Not as ideal as NFS for a whole bunch of reasons, but it works via the VMWare ESX CIFS driver and useful if you have to have CIFS for file server consolidation and don't want to pay for NFS licencing as well). Either way, storing your application data in either RDM LUN's or as direct NAS shares makes managing snapshots for dev/test copies and online backups of the production data much simpler to manage. Putting data inside vmdk's limits your functionality particularly for backups. MSCS requires an RDM for the quorum disk, but you can still use a NAS share for the data if your data profile and application characteristics indicate that it makes more sense to do that than use an RDM for the data. regards, Alan McLachlan. -----Original Message----- From: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com on behalf of M. Vaughn Stewart Sent: Sun 10/28/2007 8:07 AM To: Jack Lyons Cc: Page, Jeremy; toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: Re: A-SIS questions FlexClone will clone a datastore, for VM level cloning granularity you gonna have to wait I think something is just around the corner. As for MSCS you need RDMs as VMDKs are not supported with MSCS RDMs can be either FCP or iSCSI VMDKs can be on NFS or VMFS (which is over FCP or iSCSI) -- Want an e-mail address like mine? Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com!

3 2

RE: A-SIS questions
by Kevin Parker 27 Oct '07

27 Oct '07

J: pretty sure it has no/minimal impact since it is performing the equivalent of a snapshot operation of just dropping a pointer to blocks of data. It also has to mark blocks of disk as 'clean' now that they're free. Minimal impact. Also consider that asis requires nearstore option which will additional 256k of ram for additional snapmirror stream that it allows. Again, vry minimal impact. As to snapmirror footprint...it will send 700m over, but if dest. Isn't SIS'd, it will return to 1gb I could be wrong in both points above so open to be corrected. Good weekend to all. **Sent using wireless handheld... please excuse any typo's or brevity** Kevin Parker - NWN Corporation www.nwnit.com -----Original Message----- From: "Page, Jeremy" <jeremy.page(a)gilbarco.com> To: "toasters(a)mathworks.com" <toasters(a)mathworks.com> Sent: 10/26/2007 3:10 PM Subject: A-SIS questions I have read some of the info on how A-SIS works but I have a couple of questions: 1) Assuming an average compression rate (say /home with random docs in it) how much of a performance hit does it impose 2) Does it change how much data is sent over the wire when you use SnapMirror/SnapVault? I.e. if I get 30% compression on a 1 gig snapshot do I send 1 gig or 700 mb to update my target? Oh, and for the folks who helped earlier, we are moving our Oracle and ESX systems to NetApp, the pSeries will be fibre connected, at least at first but the ESX stuff is all going on NFS. ~Jeremy This message (including any attachments) contains confidential and/or proprietary information intended only for the addressee. Any unauthorized disclosure, copying, distribution or reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited and may constitute a violation of law. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately by responding to this e-mail, and delete the message from your system. If you have any questions about this e-mail please notify the sender immediately. ________________________________ Note: This message and any attachments is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is non-public, proprietary, legally privileged, confidential, and/or exempt from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the original sender immediately by telephone or return email and destroy or delete this message along with any attachments immediately.

3 2

Re: The End of All Filers?
by Scott Baker 26 Oct '07

26 Oct '07

This cracks me up. NetApp helped themselves to a bunch of Auspex patents years ago, and quickly purchased them once Auspex went under so no one else could sue them for patent infringement. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. ----- Original Message ---- From: Tim McCarthy <tmacmd(a)gmail.com> To: Maxwell Reid <max.reid(a)saikonetworks.com>; owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com; Glenn Dekhayser <gdekhayser(a)voyantinc.com>; NetApp Toasters List <toasters(a)mathworks.com> Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 6:09:26 PM Subject: Re: The End of All Filers? Last I heard years ago... Portions of ONTAP we're borrowed from FreeBSD (like TCP). A number of years ago, all that borrowed code had been re-written, so much so that it could no longer be FreeBSD fragments. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "Maxwell Reid" <max.reid(a)saikonetworks.com> Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 17:52:14 To:"'Glenn Dekhayser'" <gdekhayser(a)voyantinc.com>, <toasters(a)mathworks.com> Subject: RE: The End of All Filers? FYI, FreeBSD is used primarily by GX based systems. Classic ONTAP is proprietary, with some stuff borrowed from NetBSD (probably for portability across different processor architectures.) Regards, Max > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com > [mailto:owner-toasters@mathworks.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Dekhayser > Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 5:20 PM > To: toasters(a)mathworks.com > Subject: RE: The End of All Filers? > > > OK, here's what bugs me about Schwartz's comments. > > He brings up FreeBSD, and Netapp's 'use' of this open-sourced > OS on which Ontap is 'based' - let's just put the validity of > that statement away for the time being because we'll start a > whole fork of the conversation just on THAT (yeah, and Vista > is based on MS-DOS 1). > > He (jonathan) vilifies Netapp as hypocritical for using the > open-sourced OS, yet trying to kill poor little open-sourced > ZFS, insinuating that Netapp will approve of open-source when > it suits them and fight it when it becomes inconvenient. > > Here's the thing- BSD VOLUNTARILY open-sourced FreeBSD. It > was THEIR CHOICE because THEY OWNED IT. Netapp didn't take > SCO Unix (if they 'took' anything at all) and said "we'll use > that, I found the code on Gopher" (well, it WAS a long time ago.). > > Netapp did not voluntarily release WAFL nor would one expect > them to. For Sun to open-source IP that it did not own is NOT > LEGAL OR CORRECT, assuming that Netapp's patents hold up to > the prior art claims (and I think they will, since ZFS and > its underpinnings came later). > > Someone with a cynical view could concoct a few scenarios in > which Sun DELIBERATELY open-sourced ZFS because perhaps they > KNEW they would get crucified in a patent battle, and by > open-sourcing it, they let the cat out of the bag, so to > speak. They do say that it's easier to ask for > forgiveness than to ask for permission, right? Tagging > Netapp with an > 'anti-open-source' label gains an instant fan-base of many > Linux freaks (I say 'freaks' affectionately as I am one), and > comes with some real possible economic pain for Netapp, so > maybe there was a mis-calculation that netapp would just let > it be. A mis-calculation, by the way, that could have severe > ramifications on Mr. Schwartz's employment I'm sure. The tone > of jonathan's blog does wreak a bit of mad desperation, doesn't it? > > > Well enough of that. I'm going out with netapp tonight in > san Francisco! :-) > > Glenn (the other one) > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: The End of All Filers? > > Glenn wrote: > > >Let me see if I got this straight: > >ZFS copied the snapshot technologies, and general way that > WAFL works, > >which is patented by NetApp. Then released it to the open source > >community. > > You got that about right. > > >What did I miss? > > StorageTek's Iceberg product was where a lot of the concepts > came from originally. > > It's a matter of the judge & jury's preference and the > questions that are put before them - should you be able to > implement a technology solution concept with your code if you > use some of the same algorithms? Did Sun actually see the > source code and steal it? Who is a llowed to copy who? Who > owns the original patents? > > Looks like quite a circular argument to me. > > It'll be interesting to see who wins. > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

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The End of All Filers?
by No More Linux! 26 Oct '07

26 Oct '07

http://blogs.sun.com/jonathan/entry/harvesting_from_a_troll

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RE: The End of All Filers?
by Glenn Marsh 25 Oct '07

25 Oct '07

Here is another nice post to read. http://blogs.netapp.com/dave/2007/09/netapp-sues-sun.html ************************************************************************ Glenn Marsh Lattice Semiconductor Corporation Senior Unix Systems Administrator 5555 NE Moore Court CAD Engineering Hillsboro, Oregon 97124 glenn.marsh(a)latticesemi.com 503-268-8000 503-268-8136 phone - 503-268-8459 fax ************************************************************************

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Head upgrade 3020 to 3040
by Darish Rajanayagam 25 Oct '07

25 Oct '07

Greeting Toasters, We will soon be upgrading our FAS3020 filer to a FAS3040. The two main protocols the filer is used for is NFS and ISCSI. I am concerned of the implications this upgrade will have on the iscsi network. Has anyone done this type of migration and can share their experience with me? Will upgrading the head unit impact iscsi iqns, lun serial numbers etc? Thanks, Darish.

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Re: WAFL metadata files
by April Jenner 23 Oct '07

23 Oct '07

Hello All: There are a couple of possibilities on this one. Data ONTAP GX can handles "lots" of objects very fast. Data ONTAP GX would fix this problem and remove all the limitations but a lot of people aren't ready for GX yet. (Sabastian might consider it) "Lots" is very subjective but the original case of using the "ls" command and taking a coffee break is typical of a case where the directory structure is just too large to fit into memory. Without more information, none of use can be sure that is really the problem. (We'd have to see statistics and look at lots of factors). If tanyone needs to access millions of files in a single directory and doesn't want to move to GX, then working with NetApp support to change the directory structure is the best case scenario. You can hopefully get the performance back with small tweaks. "Metadata" is sounding like a subjective term as well. There is no evidence that the metadata is a problem. The directory file is probably the problem (The directory file is a special file that has inode numbers and maps those numbers to names. It has to be read into system memory to send the information back for an "ls") Just my .02 cents. --April ----- Original Message ---- From: Blake Golliher <thelastman(a)gmail.com> To: Peter D. Gray <pdg(a)uow.edu.au> Cc: toasters(a)mathworks.com Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 6:26:56 PM Subject: Re: WAFL metadata files I'd argue that this is general file system issue, not so much a wafl issue. I don't think wafl is particularly slow at this workload either, they do far better then most other nas gear I've used for this workload. There are trickier things out there, like bluearc has some preloaded cache for meta data to help speed it along, but that's just fixing the problem by tossing it all in memory. If you compare a file system operation to file system operation between netapp and bluearc I'm sure you'd fine similar performance issues for a directory with millions of objects. But I do hope some of those wafl guys can figure out a way to make lots of objects in a file system faster. It can be a huge pain. -Blake On 10/22/07, Peter D. Gray <pdg(a)uow.edu.au> wrote: > On Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 12:55:48PM -0700, Blake Golliher wrote: > > I have to deal with millions of objects in filesystems, I highly > > recommend subdirectories. look at your nfs_hist output. First do > > nfs_hist -z. Then count to 30 and run nfs_hist again. It's a > > histogram of all nfs ops, and how long they took in milisecond > > buckets. I'd bet lookup is taking a very long time. When dealing > > with a large number of objects, sensible directory structures are key. > > > > Yes, but to be fair, this is a weakness in the wafl filesystem. > You cannot have everything, and wafl has made a trade off > in the way it stores file metadata that makes it slow to > handle large number of files in a directory. > > I am not sure if netapp is planning any enhancements in this area > or even what would be possible. > > Anybody care to comment? > > Regards, > pdg > > -- > > See mail headers for contact information. > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

1 0

disk busy 100%
by No More Linux! 23 Oct '07

23 Oct '07

we see this alot on one of our 3050's, the disks are 144gb 10k FCAL, we are very concerned: CPU Total Net kB/s Disk kB/s Tape kB/s Cache Cache CP CP Disk ops/s in out read write read write age hit time ty util 33% 1633 14262 1967 2934 5948 0 0 5 99% 33% : 100% 40% 2036 13033 1799 12622 5279 0 0 5 99% 27% D 100% 58% 3800 16660 2534 13262 24247 0 0 5 99% 100% : 100% 40% 3271 17156 2268 10978 18927 0 0 5 100% 100% : 100% 30% 1217 9699 1802 7390 24154 0 0 5 99% 100% : 100% 22% 2318 571 2020 8697 21873 0 0 5 93% 100% : 100% 20% 1428 706 2014 7663 21820 0 0 5 94% 100% : 100% 63% 2728 57180 3438 7852 19920 0 0 5 100% 100% : 100% 76% 2787 30640 17043 44909 38679 0 0 5 99% 77% D 100% 72% 1995 20426 20208 41305 35765 0 0 5 98% 100% : 100% 68% 2049 19219 22977 43481 36810 0 0 5 98% 100% : 100% 66% 2234 23097 20839 39816 38096 0 0 5 98% 100% : 100% 63% 2352 23897 27837 35960 16489 0 0 5 99% 55% : 100% 54% 2478 23635 30499 36404 0 0 0 5 99% 0% - 100% 64% 1644 20728 7715 33592 34764 0 0 5 99% 78% D 100% 46% 2901 15620 2120 15486 35537 0 0 5 99% 100% : 100% 42% 3209 13807 1929 18263 34560 0 0 5 99% 100% : 100% 39% 1118 15173 2115 17007 34335 0 0 5 99% 100% : 100% 37% 1111 15072 1830 3434 10154 0 0 5 99% 43% : 100% 24% 1215 14888 1678 1331 0 0 0 5 99% 0% - 100% what could be causing this and how can we alleviate it?

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Quick question re upgrade from Ontap 6.5.6 to 7.2.3
by Bryano 23 Oct '07

23 Oct '07

I have just gone through the upgrade guide and drawn up my plan of attack so to speak however it does not state how long the wafl conversion will take (I appreciate this is hard to gauge) and if you have to wait for the conversion to finish before you can create new aggregates and flex volumes and start migrating data in to them from existing trad vols - can anyone advise? Thanks -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Quick-question-re-upgrade-from-Ontap-6.5.6-to-7.2.3-t… Sent from the Network Appliance - Toasters mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

1 0

WAFL metadata files
by Sebastien Campion 23 Oct '07

23 Oct '07

The WAFL file system store metadata in files, three files : - inode file - block-map file - inode map Is it possible to copy this files ? I would like to make precises stats on this file system. Thanks in advance, Séb.

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Re: Securely wipe out all data (was :How many 750G disks can can fit into an aggregate?)
by Sto Rage© 22 Oct '07

22 Oct '07

Have you tried the disk sanitize command? I haven't tried this, but the man page seems to talk about what you want to do. Let us know if this works for you. The disk sanitize start, disk sanitize abort, and disk sanitize status commands are used to start, abort, and obtain status of the disk sanitization process. This pro- cess runs in the background and sanitizes the disk by writing the entire disk with each of the defined pat- terns. The set of all pattern writes defines a cycle; both pattern and cycle count parameters can be specified by the user. Depending on the capacity of the disk and the number of patterns and cycles defined, this process can take several hours to complete. When the process has com- pleted, the disk is in the sanitized state. The disk sani- tize release command allows the user to return a sanitized disk to the spare pool. -G On 10/22/07, Stefan Funke <bundy(a)arcor-online.net> wrote: > Andrew Siegel wrote: > > > In my opinion (as a 12-year customer), the 16TB limit is the number one > > deficiency in NetApp software at the moment, and perhaps their biggest > > deficiency ever. I would be very surprised if they weren't losing > > customers over this issue. > > Acknowledged. I think they changed the limit from 10TB to 16TB with > Ontap7, correct? Disc sizes are growing and growing - unless NetApp > changes to solid state disks (flash), a higher limit would be nice to > have. > > > BTW, I'm searching for a way to securely wipe out all data at our R200 > disks. (ATA, 154x274gig) I wanted to build a big volume, but the 16TB > hit me too. Has anyone ever played with 'dd' at Ontap side? Is there a > hidden random device (/dev/random) I can use to create random data? Any > hints? :) >

1 0

Re: How many 750G disks can can fit into an aggregate?
by Stefan Funke 22 Oct '07

22 Oct '07

Andrew Siegel wrote: > In my opinion (as a 12-year customer), the 16TB limit is the number one > deficiency in NetApp software at the moment, and perhaps their biggest > deficiency ever. I would be very surprised if they weren't losing > customers over this issue. Acknowledged. I think they changed the limit from 10TB to 16TB with Ontap7, correct? Disc sizes are growing and growing - unless NetApp changes to solid state disks (flash), a higher limit would be nice to have. BTW, I'm searching for a way to securely wipe out all data at our R200 disks. (ATA, 154x274gig) I wanted to build a big volume, but the 16TB hit me too. Has anyone ever played with 'dd' at Ontap side? Is there a hidden random device (/dev/random) I can use to create random data? Any hints? :)

2 1

Query DFM server?
by A Darren Dunham 20 Oct '07

20 Oct '07

Is there an easy way to query a DFM server remotely? I'd like to grab some data on demand (Current CPU). I could do that via SNMP without too much trouble, but I'd rather not let all the clients directly poll the filers. The DFM server already has that information, and I can poll it on the machine itself with something like 'dfm report filers-ops <filer>'. I'd rather let the clients hit this machine so there's no performance impact on the filers if something goes wrong. Is there a way of getting that same data from a remote host without setting up accounts and automated logins? I thought I might be able to run the dfm software on the client directly, but if I can, I'm missing how to specify the server that it contacts... The web reports are fine, but I don't want to scrape them through the normal display. If I can get the raw data from the DFM server via http/snmp/other, that would be good. Thanks. -- Darren Dunham ddunham(a)taos.com Senior Technical Consultant TAOS http://www.taos.com/ Got some Dr Pepper? San Francisco, CA bay area < This line left intentionally blank to confuse you. >

4 6

Re: FAS6070 NVRAM PCIe card
by Paul Rosham 19 Oct '07

19 Oct '07

Mellanox ------Original Message------ From: Albert Chin Sender: To: toasters(a)mathworks.com ReplyTo: toasters(a)mathworks.com Sent: Oct 20, 2007 01:07 Subject: FAS6070 NVRAM PCIe card According to http://www.netapp.com/go/techontap/fas6070.html?fmt=print, the FAS6070 has an NVRAM PCIe card. It's probably an OEM card and I'm curious if anyone knows who manufactures the card. -- albert chin (china(a)thewrittenword.com) Sent via Blackberry - please excuse my typing

2 1

RE: Query DFM server?
by Kevin Parker 19 Oct '07

19 Oct '07

Or SSH or RSH the command u want. **Sent using wireless handheld... please excuse any typo's or brevity** Kevin Parker - NWN Corporation kparker(a)nwnit.com (m) 919.830.5819 (o) 919.653.4489 -----Original Message----- From: "Hackworth, Brian" <brian.hackworth(a)netapp.com> To: "A Darren Dunham" <ddunham(a)taos.com>; "toasters(a)mathworks.com" <toasters(a)mathworks.com> Sent: 10/19/2007 5:48 PM Subject: RE: Query DFM server? You can hit the DFM server with an HTTP request to send you the data it would have shown you in the filers-ops report, but in a different form, such as comma-separated values. Use a URL like http://{dfm-server}:8080/dfm/report/filers-ops?output-format=xls You can pass arguments to filter the list by filer, or by group, however you like. - Brian | -----Original Message----- | From: A Darren Dunham [mailto:ddunham@taos.com] | Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 2:13 PM | To: toasters(a)mathworks.com | Subject: Query DFM server? | | Is there an easy way to query a DFM server remotely? I'd | like to grab some data on demand (Current CPU). I could do | that via SNMP without too much trouble, but I'd rather not | let all the clients directly poll the filers. | | The DFM server already has that information, and I can poll | it on the machine itself with something like 'dfm report | filers-ops <filer>'. I'd rather let the clients hit this | machine so there's no performance impact on the filers if | something goes wrong. Is there a way of getting that same | data from a remote host without setting up accounts and | automated logins? I thought I might be able to run the dfm | software on the client directly, but if I can, I'm missing | how to specify the server that it contacts... | | The web reports are fine, but I don't want to scrape them | through the normal display. If I can get the raw data from | the DFM server via http/snmp/other, that would be good. | | Thanks. | | -- | Darren Dunham | ddunham(a)taos.com | Senior Technical Consultant TAOS | http://www.taos.com/ | Got some Dr Pepper? San Francisco, | CA bay area | < This line left intentionally blank to confuse you. > | Note: This message and any attachments is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is non-public, proprietary, legally privileged, confidential, and/or exempt from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the original sender immediately by telephone or return email and destroy or delete this message along with any attachments immediately.

1 0

Ronald Wendel/Athena/Delta is out of the office.
by RWendel＠deltadentalmn.org 19 Oct '07

19 Oct '07

I will be out of the office starting 10/13/2007 and will not return until 11/01/2007. I will respond to your message when I return. If you need some work done, contact Steve Bengtson

1 0

FAS6070 NVRAM PCIe card
by Albert Chin 19 Oct '07

19 Oct '07

According to http://www.netapp.com/go/techontap/fas6070.html?fmt=print, the FAS6070 has an NVRAM PCIe card. It's probably an OEM card and I'm curious if anyone knows who manufactures the card. -- albert chin (china(a)thewrittenword.com)

2 1

NetApp Newbie questions
by Ray Van Dolson 18 Oct '07

18 Oct '07

Hello all, my company is looking at replacing our NFS home directory storage solution (currently Sun boxes strewn all over the place) with a centralized storage solution. We're looking at a number of options (Sun StorageTek, etc) and NetApp is one of them. We've traditionally been a Sun shop, so there is some comfort there with our relationship with them and how they do support for us, but NetApp's storage solutions would appear to be far more mature at this point. We'll probably be needing only around 2TB of storage to begin with, but clearly would like the ability to expand beyond this. I've picked out the FAS270C as a potential solution for us. Questions are as follows: With the 270C, do we purchase a "head unit" and then buy a disk shelf and populate with disks? Or is the head unit and disk shelf one integrated unit? In order to do the clustered failover does this just involve purchasing a second head unit? Or a complete second set of disks as well? Would we need to purchase additional software licensing to enable this functionality? Any particularly compelling reason to go to a 2000-series vs the 270C given our relatively small disk needs at this point? How have you all found Network Appliance's support to be? Do you need to purchase an additional 24x7 support contract or is this included with your appliance? Do they do on-site service? I am a little concerned as I have placed two requests (both via a call and via web form) on Thursday of last week and as of today (Tuesday) I have yet to receive a call from a sales rep. If sales is this non-eager to get back to you -- how will support be? Perhaps if we were looking to spend a little more $$ the first time around they'd be more interested in returning my calls? :) Thanks in advance for any advice/tips. Ray

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