toasters May 2005

toasters@lists.teaparty.net

61 participants
76 discussions

RE: Snapmirror and locked files
by Umerov, Mark 12 May '05

12 May '05

As I understand it, when the block level transfer of the blocks that changed between last transfer and the time the new snapshot was taken on source is completed, Netapp makes this just transferred snapshot on the target the active file system and removes previous snapshot from the source - the target at that point is synchronized with the source at the time of the last snapshot. When the snapshot on target volume becomes the active file system, what happens to files that reside on data blocks that changed in case these files happen to be locked by clients? Does the question make sense? If it does not make any sense, let me try to ask it differently... Unlike typical NFS, when CIFS clients read the file, the file is actually locked until read operation completes. In other words, other processes cannot update the file while the file is being read. What happens in case of Netapp if CIFS clients read the file from the snapmirrored volume and the snapmirror transfer completes *while* the file is being read? thanks again, Mark -----Original Message----- From: Eric Kimminau [mailto:ekimminau@rainfinity.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 12:40 PM To: Umerov, Mark Cc: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: RE: Snapmirror and locked files Hi! I know that snapmirror is a block level solution, which, to my knowledge, has no real knowledge of the files using those blocks. Therefore I don't believe that it has no knowledge of file related locks. Then again I could be completely wrong. I would be very interested in hearing if you hear anything other that what I have below. From the iSCSI best practices paper: http://www.netapp.com/tech_library/3250.html 3.9. File Systems That Are Not Capable of Snapshots Applications that are implemented on top of file systems that are not capable of Snapshots, such as NTFS, represent the simplest scenario from a backup and recovery perspective. When backing up these applications, applications must be first quiesced, or taken offline, in order to avoid open files or files changing during the backup operation. Then, file system caches must be first committed before the backup operation commences. The application remains quiesced, or offline, until the backup is completed, at which point normal application operation can resume. This can result in a significant period of unavailability for the application. Some applications have a built-in hot backup mode, allowing a backup to occur while the application operates at a reduced efficiency and often, limited capabilities. This type of mode is typical in messaging and database applications such as Microsoft Exchange and OracleR. It will result in higher overall application availability than not using hot backup mode. However, it can potentially still result in a long interval of reduced efficiency and limited performance. One final alternative is to use an open file manager from a backup software vendor. These applications are designed to handle backup operations on files that are still locked by an application. They work well for simple applications, such as home directories and shared documents. However, they should be avoided with complex applications, such as messaging applications or databases. ================================================================= This of course assumes that snapmirror does not use the SecureShare methodology described in this paper which handles multi-protocol opportunistic locks but I don't know if snapmirror interacts in any way: http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:QtaPZkw0OCwJ:www.nluug.nl/events/vj99 /papers/pawlowski.ps+snapmirror+locked+files&hl=en&client=firefox-a Data integrity A thorny problem in the multiprotocol file access space is managing shared access to data in the face ofrestrictions imposed by client locking. The technology in Network Appliance filers that accomplishes this is called SecureShare, and is described in [Borr98]. SecureShare enables UNIX and Windows based applications to concurrently access and update sharedfiles, with the integrity and cache coherency of the shared data being protected by system-enforced locking and file-open semantics. The locking semantics between Windows NT and UNIX differsignificantly. Heuristics control simultaneous access to a file by both UNIX and Windows NT. Simultaneous access in a multiprotocol environment might compromise the data integrity of a file(when locked against unwanted modification by other clients) if not properly managed. UNIX clients have rather lax standards of locking compared to the more restrictive lock semantics of Windows NT. SecureShare also implements a multiprotocol extrapolation of the Windows networking performanceoptimization known as "opportunistic locks" (oplocks). Oplocks allow a Windows NT client to aggressively cache data and lock state in the absence of sharing. A Windows NT server will extend anoplock to a Windows NT client when no other client is sharing a file. When another client attempts access to a file on which an oplock is held, a Winndows NT server will "break the oplock" forcing allmodified data and lock state back to the server, and the server will then negotiate file access between clients engaged in data sharing. The SecureShare implementation of oplocks provides Windows-basedapplications the performance benefits of aggressive client-side caching and the assurance that the same "oplock break" protocol occurs in the event a UNIX-based application attempts to access an oplockedfile. ---------1---------2---------3---------4---------5---------6---------7 Eric Kimminau Email: ekimminau(a)rainfinity.com Senior Sales Engineer Office:248.766.9921 Rainfinity Fax: 248.393.8037 www.rainfinity.com ________________________________ From: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com [mailto:owner-toasters@mathworks.com] On Behalf Of Umerov, Mark Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 2:58 PM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: Snapmirror and locked files greetings, Does Netapp allow locking of files on snapmirrored (read-only) volumes? If so, how does Snapmirror behave if there are locked files on the target? Please advise if you can... thanks much in advance, Mark

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RE: adding new DS14mkII shelves
by Francett, Robert D (SAIC) 12 May '05

12 May '05

I think he's wanting to add several FC shelves, starting with address 1, to an already existing FC adapter, hot. Add & configure shelves, or at least the first one, turn on adapter, away you go, filer doesn't hiccup (gulp!). I've also added shelves hot when there's already at least one up, but haven't tried what he has in mind - if I understand 'the plan' properly. -----Original Message----- From: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com [mailto:owner-toasters@mathworks.com] On Behalf Of Skottie Miller Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 3:21 PM To: Michael Schipp Cc: rob-7704(a)austin.rr.com; John Stoffel; toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: Re: adding new DS14mkII shelves Hot adding ds14 shelves not only works, it's supported and documented by NetApp. I've installed many a shelf live, on 9x0 filers and R200 systems. -skottie -- Scott Miller skottie(a)DreamWorksAnimation.com

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RE: adding new DS14mkII shelves
by Michael Schipp 11 May '05

11 May '05

Hmmm, not long < 5 seconds (approx) - I have done this on live system before (NOT recommended - but works) -----Original Message----- From: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com [mailto:owner-toasters@mathworks.com] On Behalf Of rob-7704(a)austin.rr.com Sent: Wednesday, 11 May 2005 11:47 PM To: John Stoffel Cc: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: Re: adding new DS14mkII shelves John, > > Robert> Sunday morning we'll shut the Oracle DB's down and do the > following: >Why not just shutdown the filer, hook up the last fibre connections >between the new shelves and the filer and reboot? 4 minutes of down >time... Ultimately we can and will do this. There are certain parties here that claim this can be done live... I suppose I'm catering to their wishes. But a reboot after all the drives are seen is probably a good idea if I have the window. > Robert> Does it matter in which order I flip the terminator switch > Robert> and/or run the "storage" command? Should I flip the > Robert> Terminator switch off and *then* issue the "storage" command? > Robert> I'm thinking Terminator switch last.... > > > To me, you don't want to enable the storage until all the hookups are > done and correct. Once you do the enable command, it will go out and > probe that adapter, so it should be physically all setup ahead of > time. > Our SE mentioned in a meeting weeks ago that adding shelves is as simple as cabling them up with Termination "on" and then flipping a switch thus my frame of mind. And in an existing loop that would be true. But these are new loops and the FC controllers have no drives on them and thus the FC controllers came up disabled. I just talked to him and we revised the plan to as you suggest. I'll leave the termination switch "on" and run my fiber cable from FC controllers to the Fiber based ESH's. Then flip the termination switch off on the first shelf and *then* issue the "storage enable adapter x" command last. I'm curious how long it'll take for each FC controller loop to "discover" all the drives. Thanks for your suggestion. -Rob

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Snapmirror and locked files
by Umerov, Mark 11 May '05

11 May '05

greetings, Does Netapp allow locking of files on snapmirrored (read-only) volumes? If so, how does Snapmirror behave if there are locked files on the target? Please advise if you can... thanks much in advance, Mark

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Re: adding new DS14mkII shelves
by Jerry 11 May '05

11 May '05

We've just added DS14mkII shelves on the fly. The only catch for us was using ESH2 modules, you have to have the right version of ontap, or it panics the filer when you open the loop. And yes, once you have the propper requirements it's as simple as flipping the terminator. The drives are seen in 30 seconds or so. (FAS940 cluster) --- John Stoffel <john.stoffel(a)taec.toshiba.com> wrote: > > Robert> I'm adding 8 DS14mkII shelves on Sunday > morning. The new FC > Robert> controllers are already in the Filer (FAS940 > running DOT > Robert> 6.5.4) and blinking away. I also slid the 8 > trays in (very > Robert> carefully) over the past 2 weeks and cabled > the copper > Robert> interconnects up in-to-out between shelves > this afternoon. > > Robert> Sunday morning we'll shut the Oracle DB's > down and do the following: > > Why not just shutdown the filer, hook up the last > fibre connections > between the new shelves and the filer and reboot? 4 > minutes of down > time.... > > Robert> 1. Run the Fiber cable between the FC > controller A/B ports and > Robert> the Fiber based DS14 shelves. (we installed > 2 and are planning > Robert> on putting 4 each shelves per FC controller) > > Robert> 2. Run the "storage enable adapter n" > command. > > Robert> 3. Flip the Terminator switch on the Fiber > IN ports of each of > Robert> the 4 ports across the two Fiber based > shelves. > > Robert> Does it matter in which order I flip the > terminator switch > Robert> and/or run the "storage" command? Should I > flip the > Robert> Terminator switch off and *then* issue the > "storage" command? > Robert> I'm thinking Terminator switch last.... > > I'm not clear what you doing here, are you saying > that you already > have shelves on the new controllers and you want to > add shelves into > the loop in real time? If the controllers are > completely unused, just > cable them up and turn on the termination switches > to the correct > positions, _then_ I'd run the 'storage enable > adapter' command. > > To me, you don't want to enable the storage until > all the hookups are > done and correct. Once you do the enable command, > it will go out and > probe that adapter, so it should be physically all > setup ahead of > time. > > But hey, I'm ignorant and I'd love to be educated > here too. > > John > John Stoffel - Senior Staff Systems > Administrator - System LSI Group > Toshiba America Electronic Components, Inc. - > http://www.toshiba.com/taec > john.stoffel(a)taec.toshiba.com - 508-486-1087 > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250

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RE: raid dp
by Venkat Appineni 11 May '05

11 May '05

I would suggest go with the latest GA release for 6.5 which would have lot of bug fixes..6.5 is one of the most stable release from Netapp... -V -----Original Message----- From: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com [mailto:owner-toasters@mathworks.com] On Behalf Of Constantin Bogomolnyi Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 6:02 AM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: raid dp Hello, I have 2 f840 with 72gigsx35x2 , i would like to use the raid dp feature how stable is the ontap 6.5 ? can we use it in prod for only nfs + raid-dp + snapmirror thanks cb

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raid dp
by Constantin Bogomolnyi 11 May '05

11 May '05

Hello, I have 2 f840 with 72gigsx35x2 , i would like to use the raid dp feature how stable is the ontap 6.5 ? can we use it in prod for only nfs + raid-dp + snapmirror thanks cb

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Re: adding new DS14mkII shelves
by rob-7704＠austin.rr.com 11 May '05

11 May '05

John, > > Robert> Sunday morning we'll shut the Oracle DB's down and do the > following: >Why not just shutdown the filer, hook up the last fibre connections >between the new shelves and the filer and reboot? 4 minutes of down >time... Ultimately we can and will do this. There are certain parties here that claim this can be done live... I suppose I'm catering to their wishes. But a reboot after all the drives are seen is probably a good idea if I have the window. > Robert> Does it matter in which order I flip the terminator switch > Robert> and/or run the "storage" command? Should I flip the > Robert> Terminator switch off and *then* issue the "storage" command? > Robert> I'm thinking Terminator switch last.... > > > To me, you don't want to enable the storage until all the hookups are > done and correct. Once you do the enable command, it will go out and > probe that adapter, so it should be physically all setup ahead of > time. > Our SE mentioned in a meeting weeks ago that adding shelves is as simple as cabling them up with Termination "on" and then flipping a switch thus my frame of mind. And in an existing loop that would be true. But these are new loops and the FC controllers have no drives on them and thus the FC controllers came up disabled. I just talked to him and we revised the plan to as you suggest. I'll leave the termination switch "on" and run my fiber cable from FC controllers to the Fiber based ESH's. Then flip the termination switch off on the first shelf and *then* issue the "storage enable adapter x" command last. I'm curious how long it'll take for each FC controller loop to "discover" all the drives. Thanks for your suggestion. -Rob

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adding new DS14mkII shelves
by Robert K. Borowicz 11 May '05

11 May '05

I'm adding 8 DS14mkII shelves on Sunday morning. The new FC controllers are already in the Filer (FAS940 running DOT 6.5.4) and blinking away. I also slid the 8 trays in (very carefully) over the past 2 weeks and cabled the copper interconnects up in-to-out between shelves this afternoon. Sunday morning we'll shut the Oracle DB's down and do the following: 1. Run the Fiber cable between the FC controller A/B ports and the Fiber based DS14 shelves. (we installed 2 and are planning on putting 4 each shelves per FC controller) 2. Run the "storage enable adapter n" command. 3. Flip the Terminator switch on the Fiber IN ports of each of the 4 ports across the two Fiber based shelves. My question is: Does it matter in which order I flip the terminator switch and/or run the "storage" command? Should I flip the Terminator switch off and *then* issue the "storage" command? I'm thinking Terminator switch last.... TIA -Rob

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RE: New certification path (NACP/NACA)
by Hill, Aaron 10 May '05

10 May '05

For the most part, I must agree. My only gripe is that the requirements have been relaxed significantly; I sat the FAS900 hardware and ONTAP Admin exams when they were still needed for the NACA. Then I sat the ONTAP Advanced and the 3 NACP exams for my NACE. Now I find you only need 4 exams to get to NACE ...... hmmmm. The exams were no nonsense, I either knew all my stuff and passed, or didn't know it all and failed. This happened with the Data Protection exam when the snaplock stuff was introduced in 6.5. So I had to update myself to pass the exam the second time. This was acceptable. There were no long-winded questions that tried to baffle me intentionally like many other vendor exams I have taken. NetApp ask you a question straight up and then you answer it, no unnecessary ambiguity that I could detect. Almost all the exam content is found in the course material as mentioned. It is also very wise to do a NOW search on the technology you are studying and basically learn and read as much as possible. The rest is memory training and as we all know, there are many tricks that can be employed to make that easier. Experience will make answering the troubleshooting questions a breeze. When I felt I lacked experience in a particular area, I read through the KB articles and found them very helpful. Aaron -----Original Message----- From: Alan Biren [mailto:ABIREN@amccorp.com] Sent: Monday, 9 May 2005 10:36 PM To: Jacek Nogala; toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: RE: New certification path (NACP/NACA) I fond the NetApp exams to be probably some of the best in regards to the following: 1) They do not ask questions that are on notes in the training materials. 2) The questions are all on relavent information that is contained in the training materials 3) There are 5 questions related to experience in working with the Filer This is done to help eliminate the 'paper' certifications. 4) On the above experience questions should not cause you to fail if you have studied the training material. 5) After any of the exams I've been able to go to the training material and find the answer rather easily. From other vendors, I am still looking for answers to. Good Luck on the Exams. I also hear that NetApp is changing the Certification Process yet again. Alan, NACE -----Original Message----- From: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com [mailto:owner-toasters@mathworks.com] On Behalf Of Jacek Nogala Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 4:28 AM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: New certification path (NACP/NACA) Some time ago I have passed exams required for NetApp Certified Professional certification. Unfortunately NetApp does not permit for any upgrades to new path and I have to pass new exams from scratch. Can anyone share with me some experience from new exams (I am not asking about explicit questions or other secret stuff)? My past experience was not very good: 1. due small number of questions (30 per exam) it is not so difficult to fail exam by simple mistake or obscure question 2. I have found several question that (without aby doubts) could not be answered without additional data AFAIK problem no 1 is still valid... Best regards, Jacek **************************************************************************** ************************* If you have received this email in error please notify the the system manager or the sender immediately and do not disclosed the to anyone or make copies. ** eSafe scanned this email for viruses, vandals or malicious content ** ** To find out eSafe(TM) and other Aladdin Security Products, contact AMC Corporation at (212) 736-0111 **************************************************************************** ************************* ************** IMPORTANT MESSAGE ************** This e-mail message is intended only for the addressee(s) and contains information which may be confidential. If you are not the intended recipient please advise the sender by return email, do not use or disclose the contents, and delete the message and any attachments from your system. Unless specifically indicated, this email does not constitute formal advice or commitment by the sender or the Commonwealth Bank of Australia (ABN 48 123 123 124) or its subsidiaries. We can be contacted through our web site: commbank.com.au. If you no longer wish to receive commercial electronic messages from us, please reply to this e-mail by typing Unsubscribe in the subject line. ***************************************************************

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toasters May 2005