toasters March 2001

toasters@lists.teaparty.net

113 participants
149 discussions

W2k profile and Netapp
by Tim Longo 28 Mar '01

28 Mar '01

Greetings: Currently on my NT 4 domain, we map a user share on the netapp,(also the unix home), to a drive letter in the NT account profile. This is in the form of: Z: \\toaster\share We have noticed that with Windows 2000, they want this share to be mapped in the form of: Z: \\toaster\share\folder This makes migrating people from the old convention to the new convention quite a bit of work. Has anyone else encountered this, and how do you work around this problem? Needless to say, we are extremely angry with Microsoft. Thanks

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File too large ?
by Hubbard, Dan 28 Mar '01

28 Mar '01

All; We are using a ONTAP v 6.0.1 and are NFS mounting Solaris and Redhat Linux boxes. We are in the process of creating some large text files and cannot either gunzip and/or create files greater than 2GB's. We have bumped up our maxfiles and set the options nfs.v2.df_2gb_lim ON without any luck. Our friends in tech support at Netapp told me that I must upgrade to 6.0.1r3 to fix this. Any input from the field ? Also, any input on issues with NFS and Redhat Linux kernel 2.2.14 (RH7.0) ? Thanks

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ndmp backup
by neil lehrer 27 Mar '01

27 Mar '01

hi, i am testing ndmp backup solutions on my f760[part of a cluster] running 5.36r2, against a spectralogic treefrog. questions: 1. once backup started sysstat 1 showed cpu util at about 40% during mapping and initially 100% during dump for about 2-3 minutes and then much lower numbers since then. is the 100% util normal? nothing else is running, system is not prod yet. 2. can ait2 tapes be "bad" fresh out of the wrapper? the software would not handle 1 of the tapes, backup vendor said tape was probably bad. what is the ndmp response to a "bad" tape? 3. is the chip in the ait tapes used by ndmp backup? thanks

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RE: NAS Wars
by Joe Luchtenberg 27 Mar '01

27 Mar '01

Mr. Benway goes into some detail regarding disk IO based on rotation speeds and access times: "...The component numbers work out to be 3ms average rotational delay (10,000 rpm), random mode access times of 5.2ms (read mode) or 6ms (write mode, more precise alignment required), and a minimum track-to-track seek time of .6ms (reads) or .9ms (writes). On a filer, where reads usually far outnumber the writes, use 5.2ms for the random mode calculation, and .6ms for the sequential. This will get you close enough. Hence, for random reads, the aggregate read access time is 8.2ms, yielding 122 IOPS (1,000ms / 8.2ms). For sequential mode, the aggregate read access time will be 3.6ms, yielding 278 IOPS (1,000ms / 3.9ms)." Earlier in the article he used these disk figures (122 and 278 IOPS) to ascertain potential total system disk IOPS for the configurations posted at the SPEC website by NetApp. System 1 (his nomenclature) had 16 data disks, and therefore 16x122 = 1952 IOPS for random reads or 16x278 = 4448 IOPS for sequential. System 4 had 34 data disks for 4148 and 9452 IOPS. Somehow, Mr. Benway makes the leap to use these data points as a basis for comparison between EMC and NetApp. Since the IP4700 configurations posted on the SPEC website by EMC have many more disks (90) than either NetApp config, he suggests the paucity of RAM available to the EMC IP4700 (1.5GB) accounts for the difference: "...So why does System 5 (the EMC IP4700) falter in comparison to {NetApp}? ...EMC has only half of the useable RAM as available to the F840. Hence, there isn't enough RAM (work space) on the EMC to take advantage of its expected higher disk throughput." The EMC cluster has 500% of the disk IOPS potential (90/18 = 5) but only 30% higher throughput (11,451/8820 = 1.3*; OPS/sec statistics from his Figure 1 excerpt of SPECsfs97 results) than a single filer, and he explains this away with memory? Should one assume that if the EMC IP 4700 had the same memory as the F840 (3GB) that it would serve data 500% faster than the NetApp?! *Note: Used Systems 1 and 5 for comparison to have a common protocol for the benchmark (UDP-3). Only after making this dubious claim that hardware primarily accounts for the performance differences does he suggest that software may have something to do with the performance disparity (in very vague terms): "...You would also have to know more about the EMC operating system and file system efficiency versus that of the NetApp in order to come to any further conclusions." BINGO! There's your answer, Mr. Benway. NetApp is a software company, not a hardware company. You referred to NetApp's whitepaper TR3002 in your article, but I think you would have done well to check TR3001 first (www.netapp.com/tech_library/3001.html). Particularly the sections on RAID and system performance/disk bottlenecks: "...the FFS (the Berkeley Fast File System) was designed to optimize writes for one file at a time. As a result, it typically writes blocks for different files to widely separated locations on disk... Since the Berkeley FFS doesn't understand the underlying RAID 4 layout, it tends to generate requests that are scattered over the data disks, causing the parity disk to seek excessively. WAFL writes blocks in a pattern designed to minimize seeks on the parity disk." This excerpt from TR3001 only addresses how file data is laid out on disks. It does not even touch on other disk seek activity required by other file systems. Most of us have probably seen the PowerPoint slide that depicts the drastic reduction of disk seeks required to retrieve or write data because of the way WAFL manages disk space when compared to other file systems, including the CrosStor file system implemented by EMC in their IP4700 ( ? please correct me if I'm wrong there). NetApp filer performance is driven by the software, and the hardware is designed to deliver that performance through best value off-the-shelf configurations (as Mr. Benway noted, it is not critical to have the fasted CPU available in the market today to deliver this performance). I readily admit that I am strongly biased toward NetApp, and I hope this doesn't seem to be EMC-bashing. If I have something wrong here, I would like to know. My customers count on me to stay ontop of the storage market to make appropriate recommendations to address their requirements. Right now with regard to performance NetApp has a unique advantage with Data ONTAP and WAFL, as I see it. Of course, performance is just one issue, and many times a minor one in determining what is the best storage solution for a given requirement. Just my $.02. Thanks for providing a forum for me to ramble. :-) Joe Joe Luchtenberg Dataline, Inc. 757.858.0600 757.285.1223 (cell) 757.858.0606 (fax) joe.luchtenberg(a)data-line.com www.data-line.com -----Original Message----- From: Todd C. Merrill [mailto:tmerrill@mathworks.com] Sent: Friday, March 23, 2001 6:01 PM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com; emcnas(a)mathworks.com Subject: NAS Wars A recent article in Server/Workstation Expert, entitled "NAS Wars," might be of interest here: http://swexpert.com/CB/SE.C11.MAR.01.pdf I applaud Alan's efforts at applying a bit of math and a lot of common sense to such a sticky issue. This isn't meant to start a flame war, though something I read as a kid on a package of firecrackers comes to mind: "Light fuse, and run away fast!" ;) Personally, I would suggest reading the first three sentences of the conclusion first, and with that perspective, read the rest of the article. Read that way, the methods and assumptions and calculations and configurations make for good detective work, IMHO. Until next time... The Mathworks, Inc. 508-647-7000 x7792 3 Apple Hill Drive, Natick, MA 01760-2098 508-647-7001 FAX tmerrill(a)mathworks.com http://www.mathworks.com ---

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RE: NAS Wars
by Tom "Mad Dog" Yergeau 26 Mar '01

26 Mar '01

Don't you know if you're using an EMC box, you're only supposed to run home directories on a NAS box? I mean, if you want to run Oracle or Exchange, obviously you need a Symmetrix. Or at the bare minimum, the SAN half of the IP4700. Remember, EMC folks think everyone who runs a database on NAS is insane. But it would be interesting to see the results nevertheless. MD -----Original Message----- From: grey jolly [mailto:greyjolly@yahoo.com] Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2001 8:01 PM To: Bruce Sterling Woodcock; sg; Chris Thompson Cc: emcnas(a)mathworks.com; toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: Re: NAS Wars I think the article brings out a good point. Why can't we get a simple one to one test of the two boxes withthe same amount of useable storage, and as similar a configuration overall as possible? That way we can really see the price and performance of each. Up to now all we have is hearsay and Marketing BS. I don't think we're comparing apples to apples yet. For example, I suggest we test five real world applications. 1) Test both in a home directory configuration 2) Test both running a common Oracle application 3) Test both running a Lotus Notes application 4) Test both running exchange 5) Test both simulating recovery form an Oracle outage and an Exchange outage and how long it takes to recover. Let the best box win : ).

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NAS Wars
by Todd C. Merrill 26 Mar '01

26 Mar '01

A recent article in Server/Workstation Expert, entitled "NAS Wars," might be of interest here: http://swexpert.com/CB/SE.C11.MAR.01.pdf I applaud Alan's efforts at applying a bit of math and a lot of common sense to such a sticky issue. This isn't meant to start a flame war, though something I read as a kid on a package of firecrackers comes to mind: "Light fuse, and run away fast!" ;) Personally, I would suggest reading the first three sentences of the conclusion first, and with that perspective, read the rest of the article. Read that way, the methods and assumptions and calculations and configurations make for good detective work, IMHO. Until next time... The Mathworks, Inc. 508-647-7000 x7792 3 Apple Hill Drive, Natick, MA 01760-2098 508-647-7001 FAX tmerrill(a)mathworks.com http://www.mathworks.com ---

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Storage Wars!
by Horace Mann 24 Mar '01

24 Mar '01

Interesting link I found on Google: http://www.maxstrat.com/oracle1pr.html Alan Benway really seems to like local attached disks. He's been in the business for more than 20 years-it says so at the end of his article. Let's see here-(2001-20) = 1981. Wow! Mainframe days-interesting. Hey wait a minute! Hmmmm.... Who had all the mainframe storage-wait-don't tell me... EMC! Of course! So, local attached-DAS-must be better. Right. Sure. Certainly. NOT. This guy has no clue. I recommend a nice big flame war on this subject because NAS and NetApp is *way* better. DAS sucks, we all must agree. SAN is DAS with a whole bunch of non-standard fibre channel in the middle, which makes it worse. We all have ethernet networks today. Why not continue to use and grow them? Why build a new network that makes no sense? Software is what fails-not hardware. 100% of what makes a fibre SAN go is software. THINK People! Don't buy storage lottery tickets because you don't know any better. Learn something and understand the real math. NetApp rocks and will be the friction that eventually stops the momentum of the EMC nightmare. Let the healing flames begin! Horace Mann __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

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RE: ASP caching
by Braunschweiger, Udo 22 Mar '01

22 Mar '01

We experiencing the same behaviour (or better misbehaviour) within a customers site. Obviously the files stored on the filer must have read-Permission for "Everyone" at the file-level (not share-level). Then this happen not very often. If it happen, It is not nesessary to restart the whole IIS. It is enough to "unload" the cache for the affected virtual web. Good Luck > -----Original Message----- > From: Jean-Christophe Smith [mailto:jsmith@publichost.com] > Sent: Montag, 19. März 2001 20:37 > To: 'toasters(a)mathworks.com ' > Subject: ASP caching > > > > We have a cluster of Windows 2000 servers running IIS 5.0, > content lives on > a NetApp F720 running OnTap Release 5.3.7R2. Our customers > use FTP to upload > their web pages. > > IIS is caching ASP(active server pages), customers will make > changes to > their ASP files and try to view them(view IIS) and they see > the older pages. > I read about this issue entitled "5.3 Active Server Page > Caching" in the > NetApp document "Integrating a NetApp Filer with Microsoft IIS". I > understand it is an issue with CIFS change/notify events and > the way IIS was > designed. > > Does anybody know a way of fixing this? or maybe way to increase the > change/notify events, or... > > For now, we have to restart IIS when changes are made. > > Maybe I could write a program to manually induce change/notify events? > > Thanks, > Jean-Christophe Smith > jsmith(a)publichost.com > VitalStream.com > >

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using rsync with vol copy
by Coder, James (STP) 22 Mar '01

22 Mar '01

I am getting ready to move a volume (with 36gb disk) that's internal to the filer to a new volume (with 72gb disk). Have seen some references to rsync in the toasters. I looked at their web page and in the process of building it. How do you folks feel about it? My original plan is to move the data overnight, update the filer exports, cifs and nis, then turn it back over (approx 12 hours of work during a weekend). Seems with rsync I can do the initial copy and then come back over it with an "incremental" and be less intrusive of my engineers? What's been your experience? Please just post reponses to toasters. thx -jc James C. Coder Guidant CRM email: james.coder(a)guidant.com Phone: 651-582-4797

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RE: using rsync with vol copy
by Haynes, Tom 21 Mar '01

21 Mar '01

You can also do this with ndmpcopy (which does not require a license) and with snapmirror (which requires a license). http://www.ndmp.org/download/ndmpcopy/index.html You can specify the level: 0 (full dump) to 9 (incrementals). It grabs and keeps ACLs, which can be important if you have any CIFS users. -----Original Message----- From: Coder, James (STP) [mailto:james.coder@guidant.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2001 12:58 PM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: using rsync with vol copy I am getting ready to move a volume (with 36gb disk) that's internal to the filer to a new volume (with 72gb disk). Have seen some references to rsync in the toasters. I looked at their web page and in the process of building it. How do you folks feel about it? My original plan is to move the data overnight, update the filer exports, cifs and nis, then turn it back over (approx 12 hours of work during a weekend). Seems with rsync I can do the initial copy and then come back over it with an "incremental" and be less intrusive of my engineers? What's been your experience? Please just post reponses to toasters. thx -jc James C. Coder Guidant CRM email: james.coder(a)guidant.com Phone: 651-582-4797

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toasters March 2001