toasters March 1999

toasters@lists.teaparty.net

138 participants
192 discussions

NFS 2 -vs-3
by Mohler, Jeff 07 Mar '99

07 Mar '99

In a really short list, other than the attribute cache, why is vers 2 NFS better than vers 3? Im looking at the window (2 -vs- 8k) as the advantage. I will be working with directories with fewer than a dozen LARGE files on each mount. Thanks!

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NetApp/Auspex killer?
by askaquestion＠iname.com 06 Mar '99

06 Mar '99

Yes, NetApps are fine boxes but... If you started a company to build a NAS box, what would you build that would be better than what NetApp, Auspex, etc. has? I'm looking for serious responses here - to improve the market with competition! I don't view the kind of very-low $ suggestions on this list recently as the kind of thing that most of us are interested in. Don't let my anonymous query lead you into thinking that I'm not 100% serious. If anything it should illustrate just how serious I am. --------------------------------------------------- Get free personalized email at http://www.iname.com

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RE: Legato Networker backups
by Whitman, Matthew 06 Mar '99

06 Mar '99

Dane, I am not aware which or if any of the backup vendors provide Linux support. You COULD batch data nightly to the netapp... 8=) Actually NDMP is an open standard, and we have a utility called NDMP copy that allows source to destination copies from one filer to another. This has already been ported to hp-UX to allow a copy to/from a filer. I don't doubt that it could be built/compiled for Linux if someone were to put forth the effort... As for the different packages in general, I like to remain neutral between the different vendors, and would advise you to do your due diligence and compare the value add of each product. Good luck! Regards, Matt Matt Whitman - Consulting Systems Engineer Network Appliance, Inc. www.netapp.com 2350 Mission College Blvd. Suite 900 Santa Clara, CA 95054 (408)367-3000 Corporate mattw(a)netapp.com - E-mail (408)987-5365 - Direct Dial (408)987-5364 - Fax -----Original Message----- From: Dane Jasper [mailto:dane@sonic.net] Sent: Friday, March 05, 1999 4:05 PM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Subject: RE: Legato Networker backups Matthew, thanks much for the great summary. We're a growing enterprise with scattered backup solutions, and we're currently shopping for a consolidated solution. We need to back up the following - is Legato "the" solution for this? One NetApp with 30 gigs 15 Linux servers, 150 gigs 20 Linux stations, 40 gigs 1 NT server, 4 gigs 10 Assorted NT/95/98 stations, 20 gigs Will Legato do all of this? Is there another way? Is there some sort of Legato client for each of these machines? Thanks much for the info! -- Dane Jasper Sonic (707)522-1001 (33.6kbps) (707)522-1000 (Voice) mailto:support@sonic.net http://www.sonic.net Key fingerprint = A5 D6 6E 16 D8 81 BA E9 CB BD A9 77 B3 AF 45 53 ----- Forwarded message from "Whitman, Matthew" <matt.whitman(a)netapp.com> ----- Greg, I will take a crack at answering this for you as a "guy in the know..". First things first; you are not the first to bring this up. As you may or may not know, NetApp wrote a protocol several years ago called NDMP which stands for Network Data Management Protocol, which allows for a "standard" that controls remote tape devices, storage pools, etc. Most every backup vendor signed on to support the protocol (Veritas, Intelliguard, BudTool, Seagate, CommVault, etc.) except Legato, who maintained the "superiority" of their proprietary system. There have been a large number of VERY big NetApp installs that have been pushing Legato to provide native NetApp or they would switch to another product. This led to the co-development of a Java-based Legato Networker client that will run directly on the Filer. The expected shipping date of this product is Q2/99. This product will be distributed, supported (and presumably sold) directly by Legato. But wait!! Things get EVEN better! On 1/28/99, Legato announced that they were acquiring Intelliguard Software: http://www.legato.com/press/PR200.html One of the main reasons cited for buying Intelliguard was the NDMP technology. EVEN BETTER!!!!!!!!! On 2/2/99, Legato announced that all Networker products will be NDMP compliant in Q3/99: http://www.legato.com/press/PR209.html With a big sigh of relief and a smile on their faces, NetApp customers and employees could give a hearty YAHOO!!! Now, the question was asked about keeping the CIFS attributes during backup; both of the methods above will allow this to happen. In current environments, backups need to be done by an NT machine running Networker, OR having a UNIX Networker server that backs up an NT machine with the Filer mounted on it. I hope that this helps. Regards, Matt Matt Whitman - Consulting Systems Engineer Network Appliance, Inc. www.netapp.com 2350 Mission College Blvd. Suite 900 Santa Clara, CA 95054 (408)367-3000 Corporate mattw(a)netapp.com - E-mail (408)987-5365 - Direct Dial (408)987-5364 - Fax -----Original Message----- From: Gregory M. Paris [mailto:paris@bose.com] Sent: Friday, March 05, 1999 12:26 PM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Cc: paris(a)bose.com Subject: Legato Networker backups Dear Toasters, This is along the lines of the "Future Newbie" thread, though I'm not new to NetApp boxes. I am looking to get our first here at this company. We use Legato Networker to backup our Engineering systems, which I support. (We use HP's Omniback and a StorageTek tape library for our business systems, but that's another post....) The problem is, I'm not clear on how I'll backup an F740 (~180 GB) using Networker. I've read the "How to Integrate..." white paper on the NetApp site. I've read the ancient "Backing Up NetApp..." on the Legato site. Neither of those seem to address our situation: Networker server running on Solaris; NetApp server with NFS and CIFS. How do I? I can connect a Quantum DLT stacker to the NetApp, but can I make Legato use it? If not, how do I backup over the network, given that I want to preserve NT ACLs? The "How to Integrate..." document shows how to do this when Networker runs on an NT machine, but we have it on UNIX. I'm looking for a definitive answer, on the order of, "We do it here and it works great!" (along with the how-to, of course). I'm bucking the prevailing winds in trying to bring in a NetApp. Tiny issues like, "No proven way to back it up," could result in me supporting a new HP or Sun server. (Not that I don't use their equipment already, but the combination of RAID and NFS+CIFS is too much complexity on UNIX servers, IMHO.) All help is appreciated. Greg -- Gregory M. Paris CIS Engineering Systems Bose Corporation Email: paris(a)bose.com The Mountain Phone: +1 508 766-6080 Framingham, MA 01701-9168 FAX: +1 508 820-0173 ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Dane Jasper Sonic (707)522-1001 (33.6kbps) (707)522-1000 (Voice) mailto:support@sonic.net http://www.sonic.net Key fingerprint = A5 D6 6E 16 D8 81 BA E9 CB BD A9 77 B3 AF 45 53

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RE: Legato Networker backups
by Whitman, Matthew 06 Mar '99

06 Mar '99

Greg, I will take a crack at answering this for you as a "guy in the know..". First things first; you are not the first to bring this up. As you may or may not know, NetApp wrote a protocol several years ago called NDMP which stands for Network Data Management Protocol, which allows for a "standard" that controls remote tape devices, storage pools, etc. Most every backup vendor signed on to support the protocol (Veritas, Intelliguard, BudTool, Seagate, CommVault, etc.) except Legato, who maintained the "superiority" of their proprietary system. There have been a large number of VERY big NetApp installs that have been pushing Legato to provide native NetApp or they would switch to another product. This led to the co-development of a Java-based Legato Networker client that will run directly on the Filer. The expected shipping date of this product is Q2/99. This product will be distributed, supported (and presumably sold) directly by Legato. But wait!! Things get EVEN better! On 1/28/99, Legato announced that they were acquiring Intelliguard Software: http://www.legato.com/press/PR200.html One of the main reasons cited for buying Intelliguard was the NDMP technology. EVEN BETTER!!!!!!!!! On 2/2/99, Legato announced that all Networker products will be NDMP compliant in Q3/99: http://www.legato.com/press/PR209.html With a big sigh of relief and a smile on their faces, NetApp customers and employees could give a hearty YAHOO!!! Now, the question was asked about keeping the CIFS attributes during backup; both of the methods above will allow this to happen. In current environments, backups need to be done by an NT machine running Networker, OR having a UNIX Networker server that backs up an NT machine with the Filer mounted on it. I hope that this helps. Regards, Matt Matt Whitman - Consulting Systems Engineer Network Appliance, Inc. www.netapp.com 2350 Mission College Blvd. Suite 900 Santa Clara, CA 95054 (408)367-3000 Corporate mattw(a)netapp.com - E-mail (408)987-5365 - Direct Dial (408)987-5364 - Fax -----Original Message----- From: Gregory M. Paris [mailto:paris@bose.com] Sent: Friday, March 05, 1999 12:26 PM To: toasters(a)mathworks.com Cc: paris(a)bose.com Subject: Legato Networker backups Dear Toasters, This is along the lines of the "Future Newbie" thread, though I'm not new to NetApp boxes. I am looking to get our first here at this company. We use Legato Networker to backup our Engineering systems, which I support. (We use HP's Omniback and a StorageTek tape library for our business systems, but that's another post....) The problem is, I'm not clear on how I'll backup an F740 (~180 GB) using Networker. I've read the "How to Integrate..." white paper on the NetApp site. I've read the ancient "Backing Up NetApp..." on the Legato site. Neither of those seem to address our situation: Networker server running on Solaris; NetApp server with NFS and CIFS. How do I? I can connect a Quantum DLT stacker to the NetApp, but can I make Legato use it? If not, how do I backup over the network, given that I want to preserve NT ACLs? The "How to Integrate..." document shows how to do this when Networker runs on an NT machine, but we have it on UNIX. I'm looking for a definitive answer, on the order of, "We do it here and it works great!" (along with the how-to, of course). I'm bucking the prevailing winds in trying to bring in a NetApp. Tiny issues like, "No proven way to back it up," could result in me supporting a new HP or Sun server. (Not that I don't use their equipment already, but the combination of RAID and NFS+CIFS is too much complexity on UNIX servers, IMHO.) All help is appreciated. Greg -- Gregory M. Paris CIS Engineering Systems Bose Corporation Email: paris(a)bose.com The Mountain Phone: +1 508 766-6080 Framingham, MA 01701-9168 FAX: +1 508 820-0173

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Legato Networker backups
by Gregory M. Paris 05 Mar '99

05 Mar '99

Dear Toasters, This is along the lines of the "Future Newbie" thread, though I'm not new to NetApp boxes. I am looking to get our first here at this company. We use Legato Networker to backup our Engineering systems, which I support. (We use HP's Omniback and a StorageTek tape library for our business systems, but that's another post....) The problem is, I'm not clear on how I'll backup an F740 (~180 GB) using Networker. I've read the "How to Integrate..." white paper on the NetApp site. I've read the ancient "Backing Up NetApp..." on the Legato site. Neither of those seem to address our situation: Networker server running on Solaris; NetApp server with NFS and CIFS. How do I? I can connect a Quantum DLT stacker to the NetApp, but can I make Legato use it? If not, how do I backup over the network, given that I want to preserve NT ACLs? The "How to Integrate..." document shows how to do this when Networker runs on an NT machine, but we have it on UNIX. I'm looking for a definitive answer, on the order of, "We do it here and it works great!" (along with the how-to, of course). I'm bucking the prevailing winds in trying to bring in a NetApp. Tiny issues like, "No proven way to back it up," could result in me supporting a new HP or Sun server. (Not that I don't use their equipment already, but the combination of RAID and NFS+CIFS is too much complexity on UNIX servers, IMHO.) All help is appreciated. Greg -- Gregory M. Paris CIS Engineering Systems Bose Corporation Email: paris(a)bose.com The Mountain Phone: +1 508 766-6080 Framingham, MA 01701-9168 FAX: +1 508 820-0173

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Re: Future Newbie Needs Advice
by rbutler＠pdc.com 05 Mar '99

05 Mar '99

> From kelleher(a)susq.com Fri Mar 5 10:24:36 1999 > To: Jonah Yokubaitis <barron(a)staff.texas.net> > cc: Tom Limoncelli <tal(a)research.bell-labs.com>, toasters(a)mathworks.com > Subject: Re: Future Newbie Needs Advice > Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 11:00:17 -0500 > From: "Jason D. Kelleher" <kelleher(a)susq.com> > Sender: owner-toasters(a)mathworks.com > Content-Length: 4312 > > > >Mmmm....if only a native legato client :-) > > Yuch. Native dump format is so much friendlier to work with than > proprietary dump formats. That plus NDMP is why we went with > BudTool. I won't be an issue for the filers once there's a native > client, but wouldn't backup all my other hosts with it. Anyone > know what's going to happen with this issue once BudTool is > absorbed by Legato? I heard a rumor that BudTool v5.0 has already > been scrapped. (Is there an Intelliguard mailing list?) If Legato > and their tape format is our only upgrade path, we'll start looking > at other products. > > jason > > --- > Jason D. Kelleher kelleher(a)susq.com > Susquehanna Partners, G.P. 610.617.2721 (voice) > 401 City Line Ave, Suite 220 610.617.2916 (fax) > Bala Cynwyd, PA 19004-1122 > > Intelliguard now has OSA agents available for all supported BudTool media server platforms (SunOS, Solaris, HP-UX, AIX, IRIX) that are clients making the platform NDMP compliant. This means that you can backup these architectures to NetApp direct attached tape drives, for example. The OSA agents are a new product and have been available since the middle of January 1999. I have installed and used them. When everything is NDMP compliant, you can backup up any NDMP compliant platform to any NDMP attached tape drive. They come in 10 packs and are pretty cheap to purchase. Randy Butler System Engineering Supervisor - Western Region PDC Solutions, Inc. E-mail: rbutler(a)pdc.com

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Future Newbie Needs Advice
by Russ Amidon 05 Mar '99

05 Mar '99

Hello Everyone, I am about to purchase two F760's w/ Cluster Failover Software and Hardware because we need a system that is 100% available and rock solid. I was convinced after talking to other Net App users that this was the way to go. After a week of reading this mailing list, I am no longer convinced. Does anyone out there have the system I described? Are you happy with it? I am particularly concerned about the fiber channel problems and all of the OS upgrades and patches. We are also considering the new Auspex NS2000. Does anyone know of an Auspex mailing list like this one? Thank you in advance for any advise you can offer to the "future newbie". Russ Amidon UNIX Sys Admin

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Re: Future Newbie Needs Advice
by Jason D. Kelleher 05 Mar '99

05 Mar '99

In message <Pine.BSF.4.00.9903042345180.26075-100000(a)staff2.texas.net>, Jona h Yokubaitis writes: > >On Thu, 4 Mar 1999, Tom Limoncelli wrote: > >|If you monitor this mailing list you will get the impression that the >|NetApp products have nothing but problems. That's because people >|without problems don't need to post. It's sort of like going to an AA >|meeting and complaining, "Gosh, you're all alcoholics! Doesn't anyone >|here NOT have a drinking problem?" > >I agree with this as well. We have run into many bugs with our >netapps, but never have had an outage longer than 5minutes, and NEVER >have lost any data. That IMO is a strong statement for network >attached storage. We've had an F330 running since 10/95. In all cases except one, downtime was limited to a ~5 minute outage. In 8/98 we had a major problem that brought us down for ~1.5 hours and left us crippled for the remainder of the day. During an outage we have always been able to get ahold of very helpful and knowledgable support via the 800 number. After the major outage, alot of questions we asked by management about the server. (It also provided us with the final argument to get our cluster.) I came up with these numbers: System in use: ~1034 days == 24816 hours Total Downtime: ~10 hours (being harsh and counting "crippled" as down) Percent Downtime: 10 / 24816 == 0.000352 Percent Uptime: 99.999648 I know it's not very scientific, but being able to work out an approximate uptime that matches the numbers NetApp's marketing guys hand out gives me a warm fuzzy feeling. >We also are running NetApp Release 4.3.5D2 and refuse to upgrade. >"If it aint broke, don't break it" That was my feeling until 8/98. Then we experienced bugs 4157... Bug ID 4157 Title Removes of very large files can cause the filer to deadlock Problem Description Simultaneous removes of files that together take up more than 1GB of space (i.e. a few large files or thousands of smaller ones) may cause a filer to deadlock and not provide file service. Multiple reboots may be required to clear the deadlock condition. Release Fixed 5.0 Unpleasant doesn't begin do describe this beast. Not only did we need to reboot the filer, but the also the system which issued the delete. Our filer has ~200 clients any one of which could have done so... not a pretty picture. It was a known bug at the time, my only saving grace was telling management that the release it was fixed in was still in "Early Access". I'd seriously consider moving up to a 5.x release. >|I used to be a big Auspex fan. Now I'm a big NetApp fan. (actually, I'm >|a fan of big NetApps :-) ). The CIFS/NFS integration is so tight its a >|thing of beauty. The RAID, wafl, and other features make it difficult >|to even evaluate any other box. Now re-evaluating BudTool on the other >|hand... Bug 4157 was my worst experience with our filer. It occurred while we were still fighting to get an HA file server (F630 cluster) approved for purchase. And I still like 'em. We got an F740 cluster last month and going to be retiring our F330 in several months. And the support is great (well, some issues with bad/wrong parts being sent recently -- but never couldn't get a hold of knowledgable personel in an emergency). >Mmmm....if only a native legato client :-) Yuch. Native dump format is so much friendlier to work with than proprietary dump formats. That plus NDMP is why we went with BudTool. I won't be an issue for the filers once there's a native client, but wouldn't backup all my other hosts with it. Anyone know what's going to happen with this issue once BudTool is absorbed by Legato? I heard a rumor that BudTool v5.0 has already been scrapped. (Is there an Intelliguard mailing list?) If Legato and their tape format is our only upgrade path, we'll start looking at other products. jason --- Jason D. Kelleher kelleher(a)susq.com Susquehanna Partners, G.P. 610.617.2721 (voice) 401 City Line Ave, Suite 220 610.617.2916 (fax) Bala Cynwyd, PA 19004-1122

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RE: Gb-ether and Extreme: closure! :-)
by Garrett Burke 05 Mar '99

05 Mar '99

Hi, Both the filer and switch are set to 100-FD. I'm not seeing any collisions, only CRC errors. Cabling has been replaced to see if they went away, but to no avail. GB > ---------- > From: Devi Nagaraj[SMTP:devi@netapp.com] > Sent: 05 March 1999 08:47 > To: Dane Jasper > Cc: Garrett Burke; 'bmw(a)visgen.com'; toasters(a)mathworks.com > Subject: Re: Gb-ether and Extreme: closure! :-) > > At 10:38 AM 3/4/99 -0800, Dane Jasper wrote: > >On Thu, Mar 04, 1999 at 09:19:36AM -0000, Garrett Burke wrote: > >> As an aside, have you run a filer into a 100Mb/s port on a S48? I'm > seeing > >> CRC errors on the port that my F230 is on. Netapp are investigating, > just > >> wondering if anyone else is seeing/has seen this. > > > >We've got a F230 running 100-FD with a Summit 48. We found that we had > >better results if we hard set both devices to 100-FD and turned off > >negotiation. > > > The F200/F300 series on-board ethernet doesnot autonegotiate. So if you > had > the filer's > ethernet interface set to operate in 100BaseTx-FD, the corresponding > switch port > should also be set to operate in 100BaseTX-FD. > > When speed/duplex mismatches occur, depending on the switch to which > the filer's interface is connected, you will see CRC errors and > collisions. > You will definitely see poor network throughput. > >

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RE: Future Newbie Needs Advice
by Mohler, Jeff 05 Mar '99

05 Mar '99

I have two F760 Cluster systems (Four total heads). It's been extremely stable, and I did have to perform one OS upgrade, and replace one MB due to a FC 'oddness'. Ive always had hardware when I needed it, and tech support has been so solid for me too. Your BEST tech support is with your SE if avialable, it seems that sometimes I can get better OS advice from my SE than from the 800#, but thats common with the guy in the field having the up-to-the-minute advice ahead of a database somewhere else. You'll enjoy your system! > -----Original Message----- > From: Russ Amidon [SMTP:amidon@pico.sps.mot.com] > Sent: Thursday, March 04, 1999 3:56 PM > To: toasters(a)mathworks.com > Subject: Future Newbie Needs Advice > > Hello Everyone, > > I am about to purchase two F760's w/ Cluster Failover Software and > Hardware > because we need a system that is 100% available and rock solid. I was > convinced > after talking to other Net App users that this was the way to go. After a > week > of reading this mailing list, I am no longer convinced. Does anyone out > there > have the system I described? Are you happy with it? I am particularly > concerned > about the fiber channel problems and all of the OS upgrades and patches. > > We are also considering the new Auspex NS2000. Does anyone know of an > Auspex > mailing list like this one? > > Thank you in advance for any advise you can offer to the "future newbie". > > Russ Amidon > UNIX Sys Admin

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toasters March 1999